A shocking realization about the "kicked from the hero's party" trend. (Please don't do this.)

[Jemini]

It's always annoying to see something as bad as Overlord in a list of "good isekai".

Overlord is one of the worst isekai ever written, far worse than any of the generic stuff you're complaining about.

Right. I can relate to an argument that it's over-hyped, but 'the worst?' There is a saying about totalisms. They are wrong 100% of the time. But, in terms of Overlord, I think you'll be fighting an up-hill battle just to argue it's in the D-tier among Isekai. You'd have to toss it in with some of the greatest gems of all Isekai to argue C-tier, but it can be done, but I don't think even that tactic will allow you to push it as far down as D-tier.

Meanwhile, these "kicked from the hero's party" plots are such that some of the absolute best examples of the genre will make D-tier at the highest, and only after you've pulled similar tricks to get them as high a rating as possible.

EDIT: Ok, maybe I could see C-tier if and only if you consider only one example of the genre taken on it's own and not taken in consideration with the fact that it's just a copy of every other example of the same cookie-cutter plot out there. (It looses serious points as soon as it's considered along side it's look-alikes)

 

[Voidiris]

There's a reason why a lot of people sing the praises of Worm. Well, several reasons actually. So many that if you asked 5 people for 5 reasons each, you'd come up with over 50 between them. But, one of them is definitely the fact that the author committed HARD to making it's main character a villain, and a villain of the sort that you don't even realize that she really is becoming a true villain until you suddenly realize she's torturing and mutilating her enemies just for the shock-value message it sends to others. It uses the same slippery slope route that was used in Breaking Bad, of 1 step at a time of her justifying doing 1 thing, and then pushing it a little further and a little further, until she becomes one of the most genuinely terrifying villains without a kill-order on them (but she definitely pushes that line.)

But, yeah. Gotta agree with this statement. After having seen something like Worm where they fully commit to the villain protagonist, all these "anti-hero" characters out there come off as rather lacking by comparison.

I agree, I really liked when she was a anti-heroic villain but then she became a hero and in 25 2 I stopped the series for now at least. Will she become later a villain again. I quite respect anti-heroic villains because they truly committ to their ideas or goals that they think are heroic or good even if they have to be evil. The difference to an anti hero is that they are not as extreme and the anti heroic villain doesn't necessarily wants the greater good or their greater good isn't really good to most (like Taylor). And yes I value every good villain that I can find.

There is a saying about totalisms. They are wrong 100% of the time.

I like making totalistic statement, mostly because it can be fun saying extremistic things and sometimes when I haven't enough information to get a more eh nuanced opinion but I definitely tend to be totalistic or at least if it means having oversimplified and extreme thoughts.

Overall, I have no issues with the trope.

There are no bad tropes only bad executed and overused tropes.

 

[Jemini]

I agree, I really liked when she was a anti-heroic villain but then she became a hero and in 25 2 I stopped the series for now at least. Will she become later a villain again. I quite respect anti-heroic villains because they truly committ to their ideas or goals that they think are heroic or good even if they have to be evil. The difference to an anti hero is that they are not as extreme and the anti heroic villain doesn't necessarily wants the greater good or their greater good isn't really good to most (like Taylor). And yes I value every good villain that I can find.

In Taylor's case, it's all part of her plan to get Jack. Her deal is that she gets obsessive about things like that. It's what made her a villain, and it's also what made her stop being a villain so she could use the resources of the hero society. IMO, that kind of obsession is still pretty villainesque even when she's in the hero role.

That said, I think the author's real point in how they wrote Taylor is that she specifically defies the hero - villain labels. It's in the description of the series. She "does the wrong thing for the right reasons." Every single step, that's always the guiding ethos of the series. This is to the point where you can even argue her becoming a hero is 'the wrong thing.' (It's worth noting that she was still a villain during 20, and you know how that one went.)

Anyway, I won't spoil exactly what she does, but at the end of the series she winds up doing something that, under absolutely any other circumstances, would have been kill-order worthy. Her doing this is also shortly after renouncing her hero title. She doesn't "formally" declare herself a villain again after this, thus hinting more toward what I said about her being someone who defies those labels completely, and this is followed by the single most controversial thing she does in the series. (And that's also the point where you discover you've been reading a Greek-style tragedy this entire time, with Tattle Tale even going so far as to do a mild 4th-wall break to say what her fatal flaw was.)

I like making totalistic statement, mostly because it can be fun saying extremistic things and sometimes when I haven't enough information to get a more eh nuanced opinion but I definitely tend to be totalistic or at least if it means having oversimplified and extreme thoughts.

Yeah, that comment was really more to take the piss out of the guy there. I mean, I can see why some people might criticize Shield Hero and pull it down from the hype, but that guy had made a comment that you just couldn't begin to argue with because there was just so much that was verifiably wrong with it. So, the only way to start was to point out how blatantly ridiculous he was being.

(Note, I quite deliberately phrased it as an immediately hypocritical statement, of the style that "I'm absolutely sure that nothing is absolute in this world," or "don't fucking swear.")

There are no bad tropes only bad executed and overused tropes.

And, to keep this post at least a little on topic, I suppose I'll also respond to this one.

I admit I've actually seen a few instances of this trope somewhat decently executed. I think my favorite is probably this one....

I'm Glad They Kicked Me From The Hero's Party.. But Why're you following me, Great Saintess? | MangaLife

Read I'm Glad They Kicked Me From The Hero's Party.. But Why're you following me, Great Saintess? Online For Free. The latest Manga Chapters of I'm Glad They Kicked Me From The Hero's Party.. But Why're you following me, Great Saintess? are now available.

manga4life.com

That said, once you include it in the context of all the others, even the absolute best execution of this trope becomes a bad execution just because of the fact that they treat it in such a cookie-cutter manner. I think, this being the case, Shield Hero could likely be counted as the one and only good use of this trope due to just how much it dresses up the plot and gives it a real body rather than the numerous carbon-copies of one another that the rest of them are.

(But, I gotta admit. If a game series like Dynasty Warriors managed to produce so many titles and is also somehow still pushing out more, then I guess this is a testament to how things like this actually CAN and DO work.)

 

[Voidiris]

IMO, that kind of obsession is still pretty villainesque even when she's in the hero role.

I agree, I think it was annoying that she became a hero.

That said, I think the author's real point in how they wrote Taylor is that she specifically defies the hero - villain labels. It's in the description of the series. She "does the wrong thing for the right reasons." Every single step, that's always the guiding ethos of the series. This is to the point where you can even argue her becoming a hero is 'the wrong thing.' (It's worth noting that she was still a villain during 20, and you know how that one went.)

That's one of the reasons I liked the series because the nature of good and evil is subjective, there will never be a absolute agreement of what is good or evil.

Anyway, I won't spoil exactly what she does, but at the end of the series she winds up doing something that, under absolutely any other circumstances, would have been kill-order worthy. Her doing this is also shortly after renouncing her hero title. She doesn't "formally" declare herself a villain again after this, thus hinting more toward what I said about her being someone who defies those labels completely, and this is followed by the single most controversial thing she does in the series. (And that's also the point where you discover you've been reading a Greek-style tragedy this entire time, with Tattle Tale even going so far as to do a mild 4th-wall break to say what her fatal flaw was.)

OK now I'll read the series in like half a year or something, I'll finish the series.

And, to keep this post at least a little on topic, I suppose I'll also respond to this one.

I admit I've actually seen a few instances of this trope somewhat decently executed. I think my favorite is probably this one....

I personally like how Who says all saints need to be good? executed the trope because it can make you ask some interesting questions about justice.

 

[D.S.Nate]

supremely based ForestDweller

It's a little above generic whitch I guess is his point.

I'm not all that deep into the LN scene unless you include anime but now that you mention it like this I cannot unsee it lol

 

[SailusGebel]

It's a little above generic whitch I guess is his point.

I'm not all that deep into the LN scene unless you include anime but now that you mention it like this I cannot unsee it lol

Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.

 

[D.S.Nate]

Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.

The whole thing about the trope of the hero being kicked out of his party. I don't read that much light novels myself so I personally don't see it much but I seen shield hero so I understand the trope from there. It was done OK there. Nothing to wrote home about but I watched all of it so it must of done alot better than most shows like it.

I did not think about this trope much untill I read this thread is what I'm getting at and now I cannot unsee it lol

 

[groudonvert]

The Gatcha level 9999 MC is an exception to this trend (sorry, I don't remember the name that is stupidly long).

The whole thing about the trope of the hero being kicked out of his party. I don't read that much light novels myself so I personally don't see it much but I seen shield hero so I understand the trope from there. It was done OK there. Nothing to wrote home about but I watched all of it so it must of done alot better than most shows like it.

I did not think about this trope much untill I read this thread is what I'm getting at and now I cannot unsee it lol

Shield Hero doesn't follow this trope.

 

[RaidenInfinity]

Kicked from hero's party web novel trend actually started from the story Banished from the Hero's Party, I Decided to Live a Quiet Life in the Countryside (year 2017) and then The Beast Tamer Who Got Kicked Out From His Party Meets a Cat Girl From the Superior Race (year 2018) sets the cookie cutter plot (original party fucks up and blames on protagonist and seeks revenge) that almost everyone else follows later.

Shin no Nakama ja Nai to Yuusha no Party wo Oidasareta node, Henkyou de Slow Life suru Koto ni Shimashita

Far away from the reaches of demons and war, near the borderland of Zoltan, D-Rank adventurer Red lives a normal existence. Through perseverance and hard work, his dream of starting his own apothecary and peaceful life in the countryside finally came true. Abruptly, Red gets a live-in partner...

myanimelist.net

Yuusha Party wo Tsuihou sareta Beast Tamer, Saikyoushu no Nekomimi Shoujo to Deau

Among all the beasts that roam the world, there are unique types of "ultimate species" that harbor immense strength and magical prowess considered to be at the top of the power scale. As such, many humans covet their abilities, leading some of these species to the brink of extinction. As a beast...

myanimelist.net

The author of the former novel got triggered so hard by Tales of Zestiria's heroine controversy that they decided to write a parody... and it kinda got popular and kick started the trend of party banishment novels.

Trope of "shin no nakama" which means true companion (MTL yourself, and Tales of Zestiria game spoilers ahead):

真の仲間とは (シンノナカマとは) [単語記事] - ニコニコ大百科

曖昧さ回避 バンダイナムコエンターテインメントのRPGゲーム「テイルズ オブ ゼスティリア」に登場する用語。当記事で解説。 ざっぽんによる小説作品「真の仲間じゃないと勇者のパーティーを...

dic.nicovideo.jp

The controversy:

テイルズオブゼスティリア炎上騒動とは (テイルズオブゼスティリアエンジョウソウドウとは) [単語記事] - ニコニコ大百科

テイルズオブゼスティリア炎上騒動とは、2015年1月22日に発売されたRPG『テイルズオブゼスティリア』の内容や事前の宣伝方法、プロデューサーの発言を発端とした炎上事件である。...

dic.nicovideo.jp

So, no. Shield Hero ain't the trend setter.

 

[BearlyAlive]

Kicked from hero's party web novel trend actually started from the story Banished from the Hero's Party, I Decided to Live a Quiet Life in the Countryside (year 2017) and then The Beast Tamer Who Got Kicked Out From His Party Meets a Cat Girl From the Superior Race (year 2018) sets the cookie cutter plot (original party fucks up and blames on protagonist and seeks revenge) that almost everyone else follows later.

The fun thing is Banished from the Hero's Party actually tries to be somewhat 'realistic' in its setting and deconstructs some isekai tropes as far as I've read the novel. I personally liked what they set up with the whole slightly darker take on litRPG takes with Classes being pretty withdrawal symptoms and everyone more or less having covert murder hobo impulses.

The second one is just a power trip harem with beast girls being "tamed" by how asswome the brick MC is. At least in the few manga chapters I could stomach. Guy gets kicked out of "besetestest party to every party at a party" because nobody ever tries to actually check the competency of what a character can and can't do in this kind of story... I mean really? Those kicked outta party story premises almost fall flat at the "you no koompetend, we foond bettah" because that's objectively wrong and anyone with a brain should notice that.
I can respect the "we have an image to protect, sorry bro" angle of those stories tho. The one with the Dungeon as sports, Impregnable Demon Fortress or something actually did it pretty well, imo.

Shield bro is just the normal Underdog Story trope done to a T. Loser gets yeeted into a problem, fails, and struggles till he makes it back up and climbs to the top. That trope is as old as history.

 

[John_Owl]

It might be a little cliche at this point, but I actually kinda liked "Banished From The Hero's Party, I Decided to Live a Quiet Life In the Countryside." It came out in 2017, and yeah, the plot kinda flows like you mentioned, but it focused more on how MC moved on. He accepted his fate and moved to live in a nice, quiet little village as a pharmacist.

additionally, it was nice to see the hero's party fall apart not because MC was the glue that held them together, or because MC was secretly the powerhouse all along, or anything, but simply because MC knew to do basic things like stock up on food before setting out across a vast plain. so when they run out, they all argue and decide they aren't needed and leave.

then of course, primary BadGuy learns where MC is and starts blaming him for everything. which gets even worse when Hero leaves her own party to go live with MC, because she's his sister and she loves him.

edit: Also want to mention Arifureta. I personally enjoyed it. Dude's power is actually kinda useless, until he learns some of the finer points of it and gets access to better materials.

 

[Comiak]

There are no bad tropes only bad executed and overused tropes.

Agree with be this. In general the execution of something is what matters. The Hero's journey formula has been done poorly before and I see nothing intrinsically wrong with the mc kicked out of Hero's party. Personally I'd add my own flair to the formula, using it as a guideline.

There's also the whole argument between art and entertainment, which is why some people say that overlord is bad. It's not, it just isn't as artistic as they'd like, but it sure is very entertaining.

 

[Voidiris]

Agree with be this. In general the execution of something is what matters. The Hero's journey formula has been done poorly before and I see nothing intrinsically wrong with the mc kicked out of Hero's party. Personally I'd add my own flair to the formula, using it as a guideline.

That would be a good way to execute a trope(from what I know), on a theoretical level at least.

 

[Jemini]

Kicked from hero's party web novel trend actually started from the story Banished from the Hero's Party, I Decided to Live a Quiet Life in the Countryside (year 2017) and then The Beast Tamer Who Got Kicked Out From His Party Meets a Cat Girl From the Superior Race (year 2018) sets the cookie cutter plot (original party fucks up and blames on protagonist and seeks revenge) that almost everyone else follows later.

Shin no Nakama ja Nai to Yuusha no Party wo Oidasareta node, Henkyou de Slow Life suru Koto ni Shimashita

Far away from the reaches of demons and war, near the borderland of Zoltan, D-Rank adventurer Red lives a normal existence. Through perseverance and hard work, his dream of starting his own apothecary and peaceful life in the countryside finally came true. Abruptly, Red gets a live-in partner...

myanimelist.net

Yuusha Party wo Tsuihou sareta Beast Tamer, Saikyoushu no Nekomimi Shoujo to Deau

Among all the beasts that roam the world, there are unique types of "ultimate species" that harbor immense strength and magical prowess considered to be at the top of the power scale. As such, many humans covet their abilities, leading some of these species to the brink of extinction. As a beast...

myanimelist.net

The author of the former novel got triggered so hard by Tales of Zestiria's heroine controversy that they decided to write a parody... and it kinda got popular and kick started the trend of party banishment novels.

Trope of "shin no nakama" which means true companion (MTL yourself, and Tales of Zestiria game spoilers ahead):

真の仲間とは (シンノナカマとは) [単語記事] - ニコニコ大百科

曖昧さ回避 バンダイナムコエンターテインメントのRPGゲーム「テイルズ オブ ゼスティリア」に登場する用語。当記事で解説。 ざっぽんによる小説作品「真の仲間じゃないと勇者のパーティーを...

dic.nicovideo.jp

The controversy:

テイルズオブゼスティリア炎上騒動とは (テイルズオブゼスティリアエンジョウソウドウとは) [単語記事] - ニコニコ大百科

テイルズオブゼスティリア炎上騒動とは、2015年1月22日に発売されたRPG『テイルズオブゼスティリア』の内容や事前の宣伝方法、プロデューサーの発言を発端とした炎上事件である。...

dic.nicovideo.jp

So, no. Shield Hero ain't the trend setter.

Funny, I remember both of those series got anime adaptations IN THE SAME FREAKING SEASON!!! And soon after, the trope started exploding even more.

Anyway, the point I was getting at in the OP is that Shield Hero is a very dressed-up version of the trope... or rather, since Shield Hero was out in 2011, six years before the "quiet life in the countryside" one, it's more like the Beast Tamer one is an extremely stripped-down version of it. (And I really do mean extremely.)

It follows all the same tropes, it's just that several of the steps in the usual cookie-cutter plot are performed by government entities instead of the other heroes. But, if you view the other heroes as the role of "members of the party" and place the king in the "inept former party leader" role, it actually works out almost exactly the same with the exception of step 9 in the plot-beat cycle (since it was the pope who took on that role).

Agree with be this. In general the execution of something is what matters. The Hero's journey formula has been done poorly before and I see nothing intrinsically wrong with the mc kicked out of Hero's party. Personally I'd add my own flair to the formula, using it as a guideline.

There's also the whole argument between art and entertainment, which is why some people say that overlord is bad. It's not, it just isn't as artistic as they'd like, but it sure is very entertaining.

Oh, I HATE it when people do that! They find something that's about 80% of the way to the best thing possible, when the average is around 40%, and suddenly because the better thing is not at the 100% mark they suddenly start calling it the worst thing out there! IMO, it's the perspective of a person who is extremely immature in their ability to critically evaluate things. They suddenly loose all perspective. But, while I can accept that it's just a growth issue for them, it still annoys me quite a bit when I see this.

(Want to know the ironic thing about people like this? They quiet down about things that are at around the 90% mark, but then they start getting even harsher on things that are at the 95-99% range than they are on things at the 80% mark. It's seriously a no-win situation with people like that.)

Anyway, as for this kicked from the heroes party trope, my main point in starting this thread was to kinda offer Shield Hero as a bit of inspiration for some potential writers out there who might be thinking of writing a story with this trope, and key them in to take a note from Shield Hero's book and actually take it in a very different direction from the cookie-cutter identical repeats we keep seeing out there.

The axiom there was "There are no bad tropes only bad[ly] executed and overused tropes." The "kicked from the hero's party" trope is most definitely both of these things. Or rather, it isn't so much that it's badly executed on the individual level. Rather, it's the failure to innovate significantly enough or dress it up enough that I'm counting as the bad execution, because this one's overused to such an absurd extent that you actually have to do something like what Shield Hero unknowingly did 6 years before it became such a tired trope in order for it to be at all palatable these days.

 

[RaidenInfinity]

Oh, I HATE it when people do that! They find something that's about 80% of the way to the best thing possible, when the average is around 40%, and suddenly because the better thing is not at the 100% mark they suddenly start calling it the worst thing out there! IMO, it's the perspective of a person who is extremely immature in their ability to critically evaluate things. They suddenly loose all perspective. But, while I can accept that it's just a growth issue for them, it still annoys me quite a bit when I see this.

(Want to know the ironic thing about people like this? They quiet down about things that are at around the 90% mark, but then they start getting even harsher on things that are at the 95-99% range than they are on things at the 80% mark. It's seriously a no-win situation with people like that.)

Anyway, as for this kicked from the heroes party trope, my main point in starting this thread was to kinda offer Shield Hero as a bit of inspiration for some potential writers out there who might be thinking of writing a story with this trope, and key them in to take a note from Shield Hero's book and actually take it in a very different direction from the cookie-cutter identical repeats we keep seeing out there.

The axiom there was "There are no bad tropes only bad[ly] executed and overused tropes." The "kicked from the hero's party" trope is most definitely both of these things. Or rather, it isn't so much that it's badly executed on the individual level. Rather, it's the failure to innovate significantly enough or dress it up enough that I'm counting as the bad execution, because this one's overused to such an absurd extent that you actually have to do something like what Shield Hero unknowingly did 6 years before it became such a tired trope in order for it to be at all palatable these days.

The party exile thing got popular in Japan because it reflects their toxic work culture and environment, and people do need something they can escape from real life (get underappreciated etc.). There even is real life party banishment like uh, from what I read, there's Japanese twitter posts about IT industry horror stories where the incompetent management fired the whole IT team because "nothing happened before, why even bother paying IT people" and you can guess the fallout. One example is when a company mistreated their one and only employee that can do that one single thing and well, deep shit happens (source: https://biz-journal.jp/2023/05/post_341539.html (MTL yourself)). This doesn't just happen in Japan though, as you know, that OceanGate thing, boy, does it backfire spectacularly... (source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ned-experimental-mini-sub-needed-testing.html)

Why does the trope work? It just works. The Japanese need them. Tired salarymen with no hopes and dreams need them. Indeed it's junk, but you know, sometimes after a hard day of work, mind blank brain dead sliding phone in the metro train, some good ol' party exile "serves you right (ざまぁ zamaa)" story is like sipping on the nectar of the gods.

 

[forli]

Oh, I HATE it when people do that! They find something that's about 80% of the way to the best thing possible, when the average is around 40%, and suddenly because the better thing is not at the 100% mark they suddenly start calling it the worst thing out there! IMO, it's the perspective of a person who is extremely immature in their ability to critically evaluate things. They suddenly loose all perspective. But, while I can accept that it's just a growth issue for them, it still annoys me quite a bit when I see this.

(Want to know the ironic thing about people like this? They quiet down about things that are at around the 90% mark, but then they start getting even harsher on things that are at the 95-99% range than they are on things at the 80% mark. It's seriously a no-win situation with people like that.)

I really seem to have struck a nerve by pointing out that Overlord is bad, seeing how you are still seething over a low-effort comment from almost a week ago.

I didn't want to explain myself better since Overlord fans always refuse to listen to any criticism of their edgy sacred cow, but I really mean it when I say that it's bad even by the standards of generic Isekai.

And a generic shallow power fantasy is exactly what it is. Like all other OP MC Isekai, the main character is a plank of wood with no personality, and there are no difficulties of any kind for him to face (difficulties unrelated to combat is how most of the actually interesting OP protagonists are made, Overlord never even attempts this). All other characters are one-dimensional fantasy stereotypes that exist only to endlessly praise the MC, only here the author doesn't even bother to put in the effort of showing how all the subordinates became so obsessed with the MC and instead just makes them all be NPCs that were programmed to think of him as a god.

The only thing Overlord supposedly does different is making the MC 'evil', but that only makes the story worse. All possible advantages of an evil protagonist such as showing their moral decay or inner conflict are thrown into the trash by the author just saying "he has no empathy because he's a skeleton", because they are apparently allergic to writing how a character becomes the way they are or adding in any depth to them.

On the other hand, the MC being evil means that it makes even less sense than usual for there to be any conflict at all. If his goal is just to take over the world, he doesn't care about the deaths of innocents and is completely invincible, there's no reason why the show should be more than one episode long.

It also makes the parts where he receives endless praise everywhere he goes really awkward. It at least makes sense for the typical bland good boy MC to be praised by the people he helps, it doesn't work so well when they have positive feelings toward someone who committed genocide against them. That nonsense with the lizardmen is when this show lost me completely, I watched clips of what happens later to see if it gets better but it seems like it only gets worse.

And I also have to say that seeing such unlikable characters easily winning all the time is extremely frustrating. You might say that this part is subjective, but the truth is that a generic Isekai just leaves me completely neutral, they take nothing and give nothing, feels like drinking plain water. Overlord was just painful to watch, it felt like drinking sewage.

I just cannot help but feel that people only like this because they think that edgy = good. Like so many that say that the worldbuilding is good because there is a lot of genocide going on.

So yeah, keep insulting me and saying that I'm immature and that I cannot critically evaluate things, I guess that's easier than admitting that an edgy coat of paint is all it takes to trick you into thinking that a generic power fantasy is something special.

 

[M.G.Driver]

I really seem to have struck a nerve by pointing out that Overlord is bad, seeing how you are still seething over a low-effort comment from almost a week ago.

I didn't want to explain myself better since Overlord fans always refuse to listen to any criticism of their edgy sacred cow, but I really mean it when I say that it's bad even by the standards of generic Isekai.

And a generic shallow power fantasy is exactly what it is. Like all other OP MC Isekai, the main character is a plank of wood with no personality, and there are no difficulties of any kind for him to face (difficulties unrelated to combat is how most of the actually interesting OP protagonists are made, Overlord never even attempts this). All other characters are one-dimensional fantasy stereotypes that exist only to endlessly praise the MC, only here the author doesn't even bother to put in the effort of showing how all the subordinates became so obsessed with the MC and instead just makes them all be NPCs that were programmed to think of him as a god.

The only thing Overlord supposedly does different is making the MC 'evil', but that only makes the story worse. All possible advantages of an evil protagonist such as showing their moral decay or inner conflict are thrown into the trash by the author just saying "he has no empathy because he's a skeleton", because they are apparently allergic to writing how a character becomes the way they are or adding in any depth to them.

On the other hand, the MC being evil means that it makes even less sense than usual for there to be any conflict at all. If his goal is just to take over the world, he doesn't care about the deaths of innocents and is completely invincible, there's no reason why the show should be more than one episode long.

It also makes the parts where he receives endless praise everywhere he goes really awkward. It at least makes sense for the typical bland good boy MC to be praised by the people he helps, it doesn't work so well when they have positive feelings toward someone who committed genocide against them. That nonsense with the lizardmen is when this show lost me completely, I watched clips of what happens later to see if it gets better but it seems like it only gets worse.

And I also have to say that seeing such unlikable characters easily winning all the time is extremely frustrating. You might say that this part is subjective, but the truth is that a generic Isekai just leaves me completely neutral, they take nothing and give nothing, feels like drinking plain water. Overlord was just painful to watch, it felt like drinking sewage.

I just cannot help but feel that people only like this because they think that edgy = good. Like so many that say that the worldbuilding is good because there is a lot of genocide going on.

So yeah, keep insulting me and saying that I'm immature and that I cannot critically evaluate things, I guess that's easier than admitting that an edgy coat of paint is all it takes to trick you into thinking that a generic power fantasy is something special.

keep going, this is lit.

 

[Jemini]

I really seem to have struck a nerve by pointing out that Overlord is bad, seeing how you are still seething over a low-effort comment from almost a week ago.

I didn't want to explain myself better since Overlord fans always refuse to listen to any criticism of their edgy sacred cow, but I really mean it when I say that it's bad even by the standards of generic Isekai.

And a generic shallow power fantasy is exactly what it is. Like all other OP MC Isekai, the main character is a plank of wood with no personality, and there are no difficulties of any kind for him to face (difficulties unrelated to combat is how most of the actually interesting OP protagonists are made, Overlord never even attempts this). All other characters are one-dimensional fantasy stereotypes that exist only to endlessly praise the MC, only here the author doesn't even bother to put in the effort of showing how all the subordinates became so obsessed with the MC and instead just makes them all be NPCs that were programmed to think of him as a god.

The only thing Overlord supposedly does different is making the MC 'evil', but that only makes the story worse. All possible advantages of an evil protagonist such as showing their moral decay or inner conflict are thrown into the trash by the author just saying "he has no empathy because he's a skeleton", because they are apparently allergic to writing how a character becomes the way they are or adding in any depth to them.

On the other hand, the MC being evil means that it makes even less sense than usual for there to be any conflict at all. If his goal is just to take over the world, he doesn't care about the deaths of innocents and is completely invincible, there's no reason why the show should be more than one episode long.

It also makes the parts where he receives endless praise everywhere he goes really awkward. It at least makes sense for the typical bland good boy MC to be praised by the people he helps, it doesn't work so well when they have positive feelings toward someone who committed genocide against them. That nonsense with the lizardmen is when this show lost me completely, I watched clips of what happens later to see if it gets better but it seems like it only gets worse.

And I also have to say that seeing such unlikable characters easily winning all the time is extremely frustrating. You might say that this part is subjective, but the truth is that a generic Isekai just leaves me completely neutral, they take nothing and give nothing, feels like drinking plain water. Overlord was just painful to watch, it felt like drinking sewage.

I just cannot help but feel that people only like this because they think that edgy = good. Like so many that say that the worldbuilding is good because there is a lot of genocide going on.

So yeah, keep insulting me and saying that I'm immature and that I cannot critically evaluate things, I guess that's easier than admitting that an edgy coat of paint is all it takes to trick you into thinking that a generic power fantasy is something special.

Meh, it's just that you said something in most people's top 10 anime of all time was "the worst." I'm someone who likes dealing in objective reality, and you seem to be quite lacking in objectivity.

And seething? More like griping because someone else brought up a good observation on the subject. you honestly think way too much of yourself and your own opinion.

Seriously, if you're someone who is so stuck up their own ass and are unable to even see the points you might be wrong on, then you are simply not worth talking to. I know it's a loosing battle, and I know there's no convincing your type. As such, I'd rather just ignore you.

I mean, I'm willing to have a proper discussion if you're willing to meet half way. I can easily admit to anything having flaws, and I really do mean anything. I just won't entertain such a thing in front of rabid types who insist upon blowing up every minor flaw into something so critical it renders it devoid of all the merit almost everyone else sees in it.

Seriously, you're just saying it's bad to be edgy yourself, just to be contrary to the crowd. That's all that's happening here.

 

[SailusGebel]

@M.G.Driver Have some.

 

[Voidiris]

Seriously, you're just saying it's bad to be edgy yourself, just to be contrary to the crowd. That's all that's happening here.

Edgy is a really weird word thanks to the internet. The last time I checked it meant trying to hard to be "cool", cool is of course subjective. It annoys me how some people use it on everything that is dark or brutal, do they see such things as "cool" and does the series even try hard to be "cool"? Can't someone like darker storys because they are fun? Or do people say that to be cool?