Edgy is a really weird word thanks to the internet. The last time I checked it meant trying to hard to be "cool", cool is of course subjective. It annoys me how some people use it on everything that is dark or brutal, do they see such things as "cool" and does the series even try hard to be "cool"? Can't someone like darker storys because they are fun? Or do people say that to be cool?
Ever hear about hipsters? The entire point of hipsters, at least as the internet has twisted the term to be defined, is that they don't like the things that everyone else likes. They just reflexively say "Oh, it's popular? I guess that means I can't like it if I want to remain a part of the cool crowd."
It is specifically this kind of lack of thinking and this joiner / anti-joiner activity where that's the only thing in their decision process that guides their decisions. I think it's just stupid.
As I said, I prefer objectivity, and that kind of thinking is quite lacking in it. It makes absolutely no sense to be all up your own ass about having discovered the "truth" that the thing everyone else likes is secretly a bad thing and "nobody else can see it but me!" And so they get all rabid about it. You just can't talk to those kinds of people. So, I resort to making fun of the behavior rather than addressing the argument.
I would hope being called out on such ridiculous behavior might snap them out of it, calm down, and actually come to the discussion table like an adult, but I'm aware being dismissed in this way is far more likely to make these types just storm off and likely confirm their bias that nobody else ever listens to them.
Seriously, ever think it might be because of your approach? It's not disrespectful to refuse to talk to someone who refuses to listen. In fact, it's smart to take that approach. They're the ones being disrespectful by not approaching the conversation in good faith.
Ever hear about hipsters? The entire point of hipsters, at least as the internet has twisted the term to be defined, is that they don't like the things that everyone else likes. They just reflexively say "Oh, it's popular? I guess that means I can't like it if I want to remain a part of the cool crowd."
It is specifically this kind of lack of thinking and this joiner / anti-joiner activity where that's the only thing in their decision process that guides their decisions. I think it's just stupid.
Meh, it's just that you said something in most people's top 10 anime of all time was "the worst." I'm someone who likes dealing in objective reality, and you seem to be quite lacking in objectivity.
And seething? More like griping because someone else brought up a good observation on the subject. you honestly think way too much of yourself and your own opinion.
Seriously, if you're someone who is so stuck up their own ass and are unable to even see the points you might be wrong on, then you are simply not worth talking to. I know it's a loosing battle, and I know there's no convincing your type. As such, I'd rather just ignore you.
I mean, I'm willing to have a proper discussion if you're willing to meet half way. I can easily admit to anything having flaws, and I really do mean anything. I just won't entertain such a thing in front of rabid types who insist upon blowing up every minor flaw into something so critical it renders it devoid of all the merit almost everyone else sees in it.
Seriously, you're just saying it's bad to be edgy yourself, just to be contrary to the crowd. That's all that's happening here.
In what world is Overlord in most people's top 10 anime? Maybe top 10 Isekai because most people can't even remember more than 10.
My first comment was admittedly an exaggeration, I'm just tired of people overrating that show like crazy when I seriously don't think that it's anything special and I made that comment without thinking much, normally I would admit that season 1 was at least ok but the way that the MC became fully evil out of nowhere made me lose all interest.
What really made me upset is the way you have been psychoanalyzing me and insulting me for an entire week based on such a low-effort comment. The fact that you don't seem to be able to tolerate any opinions on this show that disagree with yours made me think that you are not interested in a proper discussion at all.
And don't say that I'm blowing up minor flaws when I was talking about the most major aspects of the story...
Edgy is a really weird word thanks to the internet. The last time I checked it meant trying to hard to be "cool", cool is of course subjective. It annoys me how some people use it on everything that is dark or brutal, do they see such things as "cool" and does the series even try hard to be "cool"? Can't someone like darker storys because they are fun? Or do people say that to be cool?
I'm not saying that something edgy cannot be good, I just don't like how so many people seem to think that something edgy is automatically cool or smart.
I thought this was about shield hero. I liked the anime until it tried to pivot to something other than the conflict between the hero party and everyone else being against the shield hero. I talked to someone who read the books and they said that the whole dimentional conflict stuff doesn't get explained until way later in the book series so that makes a little bit more sense.
Anyway, first main plot was good IMO but it didn't really have longevity and it shows.
I'm not saying that something edgy cannot be good, I just don't like how so many people seem to think that something edgy is automatically cool or smart.
In what world is Overlord in most people's top 10 anime? Maybe top 10 Isekai because most people can't even remember more than 10.
My first comment was admittedly an exaggeration, I'm just tired of people overrating that show like crazy when I seriously don't think that it's anything special and I made that comment without thinking much, normally I would admit that season 1 was at least ok but the way that the MC became fully evil out of nowhere made me lose all interest.
What really made me upset is the way you have been psychoanalyzing me and insulting me for an entire week based on such a low-effort comment. The fact that you don't seem to be able to tolerate any opinions on this show that disagree with yours made me think that you are not interested in a proper discussion at all.
And don't say that I'm blowing up minor flaws when I was talking about the most major aspects of the story...
I'm not saying that something edgy cannot be good, I just don't like how so many people seem to think that something edgy is automatically cool or smart.
Whatever you may think, the fact that this post here is a lot more reasoned and moderate than your previous two means my approach here worked. It got exactly the results I was going for. I talked you down from your ridiculously extreme positions without having to get into the mud with you.
Also, you don't know my actual opinions on the show. Only that I disagree with your assertion that it is "the worst," and that I called it out for it's status as one of the big 5 that changed Isekai back in 2011. (Although I suppose you could infer something of my opinion by the fact that I only called out 3 of the big 5. I left Shield Hero off the list for obvious reasons, but the distinct absence of Kono Suba in what I mentioned could certainly be seen as telling.)
Believe me, we actually can have a reasoned conversation on this subject if you'd just set the hyperbole aside and meet in good faith on the subject. It's not that I can't tolerate people with different opinions, it's bad-faith actors and people who lack objectivity that I have zero patience for and prefer to treat like children rather than stooping down to their level. (Because, as I've just pointed out, it's the tactic that actually works more often than any other tactic. You may not appreciate it when you're on the receiving end, but your attitude and tactics are shitty, so your complaints on the subject mean absolutely nothing to me.)
Talking purely in terms of argumentation tactics here. If you're ready to act like an adult and discuss points with rationality, then I'm fine with dropping the condescending attitude.
I thought this was about shield hero. I liked the anime until it tried to pivot to something other than the conflict between the hero party and everyone else being against the shield hero. I talked to someone who read the books and they said that the whole dimentional conflict stuff doesn't get explained until way later in the book series so that makes a little bit more sense.
Anyway, first main plot was good IMO but it didn't really have longevity and it shows.
Yep, pretty much my point here. The portion that looks like a far more elaborate and dressed-up (and just plain better) version of the "kicked from the hero's party" plot is the portion of Shield Hero that's actually good. And therefore, my point in bringing this up was to suggest it could serve as inspiration for people who might want to do this plot better.
So, I just made a post in "looking for" a short time ago asking if anyone knows of a "kicked from the party" based story that doesn't follow the 9 point plot that absolutely every single one of them follow.
It's ludicrous how every single one of those stories follows that exact cookie-cutter plot down to the letter. But, while griping about that plot outline they all follow, I came to a rather shocking and sudden realization. There actually IS an absolute gem of a litenovel series that follows this plotline, and it's one that's become very famous lately. The reason it's good is because it adds so much extra stuff that it's almost unrecognizable to this core story plot.
The series I'm talking about is one the majority of you out there should know. I'm talking about Rising of the Shield Hero.
The worst part of this, however, is that it was written back in 2011, before this plot theme became such a major thing. In other words, it's not that Shield Hero took this dead plot and dressed it up and made something good of it. It's the other way around. Someone looked at shield hero, stripped it of absolutely everything that made it interesting, and for some twisted reason thought it was a good idea to make that their story.
Think about it.
1. The Spear, Sword, and Bow heroes don't understand how this world's system works, and therefore believe the Shield is the weakest.
2. Princess makes false-rape accusations against MC, thus depriving him of his hero position and ostracizing him.
3. Naofumi (the MC) resorts to whatever he needs to do to survive, and manages to somehow scrape together the ability to gain power.
(Note, he's not automatically strong. He starts weak and needs to build his strength from zero, with a severe handicap compared to the rest.)
4. The other 3 heroes start making messes all over the kingdom without realizing it.
(Note, the other 3 are not coming to a realization here, they genuinely and blindly think they are still doing good.)
5. Meanwhile, Naofumi goes around cleaning up their messes and earning the adoration of the towns people while the other 3 worsen in reputation.
6&7. When the King and Princess see how well Naofumi is doing despite their harassment, they start egging the other 3 heroes on to join in on tormenting Naofumi.
8. Naofumi begins out-performing the other 3 heroes again and again. (This is not a single instance, because it's not so simple and black-and-white as in these tired old plots.)
a. King arranges a tournament between Naofumi and the spear hero, which Naofumi wins quite soundly.
b. Naofumi heavy-carries the other 3 heroes HARD during the 2nd wave.
c. Naofumi protects the 2nd princess when the 1st princess tries to assassinate her... on multiple occasions.
d. The queen discovers what the King and Princess are up to, and puts an end to it.
9. It's not the other 3 heroes who appear in the "power at a price" fight, it's The Pope, because the other 3 heroes played a "rest of the party" role in this plot, while it was the king and the 3 heroes church that played the "hero/party leader" role. In the "power at a price" fight, the "price" is the fact that the church is suddenly sticking their neck out and making a power grab. So, it's not all that severe a price other than the fact that if they're defeated then there's no future for them. In this fight, Naofumi winds up having to team up with the other 3 heroes in order to defeat The Pope.
So, yeah. This is a rather shocking realization, but it actually reveals that this cookie-cutter plot actually does have some solid viability. It doesn't have to be such a stripped-down and stale plot. The reason it seems so ridiculous and cookie-cutter is because everyone who's doing this plot these days seems to be giving us nothing but the emaciated skeleton of the plot structure. If you want to make an actual gem like Rising of the shield hero, you need to feed this plot skeleton and give it some skin, bones, muscles, and organs. To stop using figurative terms here, I mean dress up the plot a lot so that it's not so easy to see those bare-bones of the plot. Because that's what all these copy stories are giving us, literally just the base bare bones of the plot used in Rising of the Shield Hero.
... I have never heard of Rising of the Shield Hero. And it doesn't sound particularly interesting either. *embarrassed face* Perhaps it is because of its offshoots being so genuinely terrible?
... I have never heard of Rising of the Shield Hero. And it doesn't sound particularly interesting either. *embarrassed face* Perhaps it is because of its offshoots being so genuinely terrible?
I'd use the term "over-used to point of death" (as in the sub-genre is being killed by it's own over-saturation) rather than "genuinely terrible." There are a few I've found in that formula that I would have genuinely found to be pretty good were it not for the fact that they look so much like all the other overused repeats of the same trope.
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That said, both of those actually make a few innovations and alterations to the plot as well. Nothing as large as how big Shield Hero differed from the later stripped-down spin-offs, but still just different enough to bring something a little fresh to the table.
(Shield Hero's differences are so large you would actually not notice it even uses the same plot until it's pointed out to you, and still there are people in this thread who are denying it uses the same plot structure even after I've pointed it out.)
EDIT: Also, here's one that manages to transition well after finishing off the "kicked from the party" portion of the plot... that said, most of the reason for that is because they kinda do a speed-run through all 9 points (finishing off point #9 by chapter 10,) and use it more as a vehicle to introduce the real threat behind the scenes.
So... I just found another example of this genre that handles the transition/pivot from the hero party kick-out portion of the story well, and this has caused me to realize the direction in which this trope is evolving.
The ones that handle the transition well are all the ones that don't actually invest much effort into the actual "kicked from the hero's party" portion of it. The successful ones are the ones that only treat it as a vehicle to introduce the plot and then just skim through the old repeated part and try to transition as quickly as they can into the REAL plot of the story.
In other words, it's become the next Isekai.
It's the exact opposite direction from what I was advocating for with this thread, but I do suppose this approach is a lot more tolerable than the horrendous number of repeated copies of the same plot we've gotten in the past. With these ones that just phone-in the "old party" involvement in the story, I can just look at it like a prolonged truck-kun that sticks around for a little longer than it's welcome and be done with it and it makes the rest of the story somewhat enjoyable.
(And for anyone who wants to know the series I mentioned that "transitions well," in terms of what I was saying here, this is it.)
That does NOT sound like a good premise at all!!! Are you just making fun of the link I made between "kicked from the party" and "Isekai" in terms of how prevalent they've become and how much they're just being used as a vehicle now?
That does NOT sound like a good premise at all!!! Are you just making fun of the link I made between "kicked from the party" and "Isekai" in terms of how prevalent they've become and how much they're just being used as a vehicle now?
I am not making fun. I've read a couple chapters of manga adaptation, and it's not bad. Also, I don't think this work has any of the 9 plot points, while still being about "kicked from the hero's party". I know it's a stretch to say it's about getting kicked out of the hero's party, but I think it fits. Also, I think it's rather creative usage of this trope compared to other stuff that I've read.
