Recommendations Chinese Fantasy Novels Without Nationalism

[Queenfisher]

Sorry about interrupting and making a tangent. But can someone please tell me what do people mean when they say all Chinese WNs are nationalist? I haven't read many (and most of the are BL, ) -- so my understanding of CWNs is shallow to begin with +_+.

(Or does it mean that Chinese BLs are generally not very nationalist???)

I once read in a thread that even the mention of Traditional Chinese Medicine working would count as an example of Chinese national propaganda, as well as admiring Chinese martial arts by the book's characters. Is that so?

I assume there's is like a spectrum of "Super Nationalist" ------- "Kinda of Nationalist" with this. Where would TCM or diehard appreciation of martial arts fall on this spectrum, then?

Also, if in my book, I talk about how awesome the Emperor of my story's country is (and the country itself), and it's a real historical person and the country is also real -- would that make my book Nationalist propaganda even though I am a foreigner?

 

[SailusGebel]

Sorry about interrupting and making a tangent. But can someone please tell me what do people mean when they say all Chinese WNs are nationalist? I haven't read many (and most of the are BL, ) -- so my understanding of CWNs is shallow to begin with +_+.

(Or does it mean that Chinese BLs are generally not very nationalist???)

I once read in a thread that even the mention of Traditional Chinese Medicine working would count as an example of Chinese national propaganda, as well as admiring Chinese martial arts by the book's characters. Is that so?

I assume there's is like a spectrum of "Super Nationalist" ------- "Kinda of Nationalist" with this. Where would TCM or diehard appreciation of martial arts fall on this spectrum, then?

Also, if in my book, I talk about how awesome the Emperor of my story's country is (and the country itself), and it's a real historical person and the country is also real -- would that make my book Nationalist propaganda even though I am a foreigner?

The meaning is quite simple actually. They are degrading every other culture\religion while elevating their own. In most Chinese modern-day novels with male mc, China is first at everything. They have the longest history, they are the smartest, they have the best culture, and so on. The mc always buying\using Chinese brands in a novel, and those who use foreign brands are 'traitors'. Chinese girls are pure and virtuous while westerners are 'open'. Japanese are bad because they are bad and they are always bad.

And the thing that screams nationalism the most is that they can't or maybe don't want to doubt it. They, basically, retransmit what their government says. A small example is that they don't have the longest history. It's one of the shortest ones if we are looking at ALL the Chinese kingdoms that were built over time. I mean, even to this day, there is a kind of separation between the north and the south Chinese. As someone who lives in a post-soviet union country, I know how a state can fabricate such things on a national level. Making up a story of greatness that was never the truth.

It's my opinion, and I may be wrong, but the fact that in the novels, they are low-key best at everything while discrediting the achievements of anyone else is what makes it nationalistic.

 

[Queenfisher]

The meaning is quite simple actually. They are degrading every other culture\religion while elevating their own. In most Chinese modern-day novels with male mc, China is first at everything. They have the longest history, they are the smartest, they have the best culture, and so on. The mc always buying\using Chinese brands in a novel, and those who use foreign brands are 'traitors'. Chinese girls are pure and virtuous while westerners are 'open'. Japanese are bad because they are bad and they are always bad.

And the thing that screams nationalism the most is that they can't or maybe don't want to doubt it. They, basically, retransmit what their government says. A small example is that they don't have the longest history. It's one of the shortest ones if we are looking at ALL the Chinese kingdoms that were built over time. I mean, even to this day, there is a kind of separation between the north and the south Chinese. As someone who lives in a post-soviet union country, I know how a state can fabricate such things on a national level. Making up a story of greatness that was never the truth.

It's my opinion, and I may be wrong, but the fact that in the novels, they are low-key best at everything while discrediting the achievements of anyone else is what makes it nationalistic.

Thanks, and I agree with that, of course! But it's just that I have read (mostly) historical and fantasy Chinese novels, and there, I find the concept of nationalism so scarce that I don't know if it would count? And I have never seen any of the characters claim they are better than the people from the other countries, so it makes me wonder if what I was reading was a very small niche of Chinese WNs???

Yet the rest of the posters here say that the absolute majority of Chinese novels are nationalist. (And I have seen threads like these somewhere else before). Which made me wonder about what counts as nationalist and what doesn't when the most obvious ways are absent:

-- no slandering of foreigners,
-- no comparing local women (or men) to others,
-- no claiming anything about local history,
-- no preferring local products to foreign ones,
-- no military domination over neighbors or attempts to.

Because I think I have seen many fantasy Cnovels that don't feature any of these(?). And they weren't that hard to find either...

Or is this thread just a meme and the OP wasn't actually looking for any? +_+ Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

[SailusGebel]

Thanks, and I agree with that, of course! But it's just that I have read (mostly) historical and fantasy Chinese novels, and there, I find the concept of nationalism so scarce that I don't know if it would count? And I have never seen any of the characters claim they are better than the people from the other countries, so it makes me wonder if what I was reading was a very small niche of Chinese WNs???

Yet the rest of the posters here say that the absolute majority of Chinese novels are nationalist. (And I have seen threads like these somewhere else before). Which made me wonder about what counts as nationalist and what doesn't when the most obvious ways are absent:

-- no slandering of foreigners,
-- no comparing local women (or men) to others,
-- no claiming anything about local history,
-- no preferring local products to foreign ones,
-- no military domination over neighbors or attempts to.

Because I think I have seen many fantasy Cnovels that don't feature any of these(?). And they weren't that hard to find either...

Or is this thread just a meme and the OP wasn't actually looking for any? +_+ Sorry if I misunderstood.

That's why I mentioned novels in a modern-day setting with a male mc. I forgot to add fantasy\cultivation, harem, and bam. We've got a nationalistic novel.

Look at something like "My Wife is a Beautiful CEO" or "So Pure, So Flirtatious". You would immediately understand what we are talking about.
In pure fantasy\cultivation novels, the nationalism is rare because the people are all Chinese, but if you mix just a little bit of other races. You would get "Castle of Black Iron".

There is also the fact that nationalism may be very mild in a hundred or so chapters. However, Chinese novels usually really long, and after, say three hundred chapters, they may go ballistic on the greatness of the good old China culture.

 

[Discount_Blade]

The meaning is quite simple actually. They are degrading every other culture\religion while elevating their own. In most Chinese modern-day novels with male mc, China is first at everything. They have the longest history, they are the smartest, they have the best culture, and so on. The mc always buying\using Chinese brands in a novel, and those who use foreign brands are 'traitors'. Chinese girls are pure and virtuous while westerners are 'open'. Japanese are bad because they are bad and they are always bad.

And the thing that screams nationalism the most is that they can't or maybe don't want to doubt it. They, basically, retransmit what their government says. A small example is that they don't have the longest history. It's one of the shortest ones if we are looking at ALL the Chinese kingdoms that were built over time. I mean, even to this day, there is a kind of separation between the north and the south Chinese. As someone who lives in a post-soviet union country, I know how a state can fabricate such things on a national level. Making up a story of greatness that was never the truth.

It's my opinion, and I may be wrong, but the fact that in the novels, they are low-key best at everything while discrediting the achievements of anyone else is what makes it nationalistic.

China doesn't have the longest history. I mean I've mentioned that to actual Chinese exchange students at my uni and they scoffed at me. Even when I opened up textbooks and showed them various cultures that were older, there's a few that are over a thousand years longer than the oldest Chinese history, which for China is the Xia Dynasty established by Yu The Great...whom they can't even prove exists beyond just reading it from ancient texts of which even the Chinese have admitted have potential dubious historical inaccuracies...they still don't believe me. I don't get how any one people can be so thickheaded.

They make so-called American Pride seem paltry and pathetic in comparison. I believe it wasn't the fact that they didn't believe the texts I showed them, I think it was because a "westerner" told them, and thus they were precondition from birth to automatically discard anything said from a westerner which contradicts their pre-conceieved notions. (At least until a Chinese person comes to the same conclusion anyway..which will likely never happen, or at least not any time soon).

China has plenty of historical examples of numerous other peoples and cultures stomping and kicking their asses....thousands of years of it....and yet that stubborn arrogance has never left them. I guess it's genetic somehow. They've spent LITERALLY half their history underneath the thumbs of "foreigners" or as older dynasties would say, "barbarians" and yet they have always believed themselves to be top dogs.

I genuinely believe it's so ingrained in them that it's little different from being a genetic imprint.

 

[SailusGebel]

China doesn't have the longest history. I mean I've mentioned that to actual Chinese exchange students at my uni and they scoffed at me. Even when I opened up textbooks and showed them various cultures that were older, there's a few that are over a thousand years longer than the oldest Chinese history, which for China is the Xia Dynasty established by Yu The Great...whom they can't even prove exists beyond just reading it from ancient texts of which even the Chinese have admitted have potential dubious historical inaccuracies...they still don't believe me. I don't get how any one people can be so thickheaded.

They make so-called American Pride seem paltry and pathetic in comparison. I believe it wasn't the fact that they didn't believe the texts I showed them, I think it was because a "westerner" told them, and thus they were precondition from birth to automatically discard anything said from a westerner which contradicts their pre-conceieved notions. (At least until a Chinese person comes to the same conclusion anyway..which will likely never happen, or at least not any time soon).

China has plenty of historical examples of numerous other peoples and cultures stomping and kicking their asses....thousands of years of it....and yet that stubborn arrogance has never left them. I guess it's genetic somehow. They've spent LITERALLY half their history underneath the thumbs of "foreigners" or as older dynasties would say, "barbarians" and yet they have always believed themselves to be top dogs.

I genuinely believe it's so ingrained in them that it's little different from being a genetic imprint.

This isn't being thickheaded. Also, it's not much of a genetic imprint, more of being raised as a cattle. Modern-day China has many similarities with the Soviet Union. And this isn't about communism, it's about how the state operates and dictates what's wrong and what's right. They rewrite history, they make a cult out of false things to hide actual problems, and they tell everyone that everyone who isn't Chinese is enemies. It isn't just about telling how great China on Chinese TV. It's raising people so that they would obey the state, and it would be easier to manipulate them.

It's not about westerners as well. There was a story about how a Chinese MMA fighter was ostracized for telling that national martial arts that use chi\qi isn't useful. And the government didn't back him up. Because this way, it's more profitable and easy to control the masses. If people learn MMA instead of tai-chi, they can defend themselves better. If they can defend themselves, they don't need so many policemen. And what would happen if they knew that there is a lot of policemen yet they don't need them? People who ask wrong questions are dangerous for such countries.

There is a lot of things that were made up. They are building a new state, with a new culture, and new people. But they aren't doing it for the sake of those people.

It's only my opinion, and this is how I see it. I can be wrong ten out of ten times.

 

[Generik0]

Or is this thread just a meme and the OP wasn't actually looking for any? +_+ Sorry if I misunderstood.

I really am looking for one. I was Actually racking them in my reading list so I can do a marathon.

Might I beg for those historical novels that you have read?

 

[BenJepheneT]

Legend of the Mythological Genes

More like Legend of the Narratively Enforced Eugenics

 

[Discount_Blade]

More like Legend of the Narratively Enforced Eugenics

More like, the Legend of Super Chinese Lineage Minus All Else.

 

[Discount_Blade]

Oh and I forgot to mention.....if you ever mention Taiwan to ANY chinese person, and I say any because even Chinese here that have never even been to China get this really weird attitude when Taiwan is mentioned. And man, I learned a lot of things about China from these exchange students, and I found them to be cool people. I mean I got drunk with them for fucks sake. But....they have a really violent opinion towards Taiwan. I mean straight up "Let's go cleanse that island filth" kind of opinion.

They get nasty when the conversation is steered towards Taiwan. Fucking Soviet's Stalin "I shall remove the pestilence" kind of evil. And Stalin was far worse than Hitler and he had a body count several times higher than Hitler. People overlook Stalin simply because he was one of the Allies at the time. And Mao Zedong, like Stalin, had a higher body count than Hitler. And the Chinese revere this man who had no problem killing millions of his own people, and quite a significant portion of them being his own so-called followers. Though I will admit just as many and more were apart of his rival faction led by Chiang Kai-shek. Not sure if I got his last name right. For whatever reason, his name is spelled two different ways depending on what sources you use. Not sure what that's about.

 

[mossplains]

Sorry about interrupting and making a tangent. But can someone please tell me what do people mean when they say all Chinese WNs are nationalist? I haven't read many (and most of the are BL, ) -- so my understanding of CWNs is shallow to begin with +_+.

(Or does it mean that Chinese BLs are generally not very nationalist???)

I once read in a thread that even the mention of Traditional Chinese Medicine working would count as an example of Chinese national propaganda, as well as admiring Chinese martial arts by the book's characters. Is that so?

I assume there's is like a spectrum of "Super Nationalist" ------- "Kinda of Nationalist" with this. Where would TCM or diehard appreciation of martial arts fall on this spectrum, then?

Also, if in my book, I talk about how awesome the Emperor of my story's country is (and the country itself), and it's a real historical person and the country is also real -- would that make my book Nationalist propaganda even though I am a foreigner?

2 examples that I encountered on WebNovel:
A Valiant Life - Seemed like a nice story. Then he started going on and on about how Chinese medicine is superior to Western medicine. Then he started going on tirades about how Korean celebrities disdain their Chinese fans and just cynically milk them for money and had the MC arrange for a Korean celebrity to be disfigured, disabled, and castrated over a minor offense.
I Found a Planet - The MC refuses to let foreigners buy his products because only Chinese people should benefit from the progress he brings from an alternate universe.

Basically, nationalism is liking your own people and wanting them to be free and prosperous in their own home. What the Chinese authors do, however, is to disparage and hate on everyone and everything foreign. It's not nationalism, but more like a combination of an inferiority complex with xenophobia.

 

[mossplains]

If WebNovel is okay, then I'd recommend Library of Heaven's Path. Basically everyone is Chinese and foreigners don't exist, so there are no foreigners to disparage and hate on. I also found it hilariously funny.

 

[Queenfisher]

Basically, nationalism is liking your own people and wanting them to be free and prosperous in their own home. What the Chinese authors do, however, is to disparage and hate on everyone and everything foreign. It's not nationalism, but more like a combination of an inferiority complex with xenophobia.

Oh. I understand now. Thanks. I was merely confused about the levels of subtlety nationalism can come across in. Not very subtle, in case of your examples, I see!

I really am looking for one. I was Actually racking them in my reading list so I can do a marathon.

Might I beg for those historical novels that you have read?

Like I said, they are all BL novels, so... . Won't suit everyone's taste. So I sent you my recs in PM, hope it'll help!

Btw, it's unclear to me -- do you mean historical/fantasy, just fantasy, or just historical? Your OP and your latest post are unclear. Anyway, I sent everything I could recall due to the majority of them blurring in my memory after a while. But the gist that helped me avoid nationalistic-focused novels is that genres like romance and mystery (esp in tandem) tend to not have any time to devote to random tangents like nationalism.

Also, due to BLs being mostly written by women and about a topic that's not very culturally-accepted in China -- these authors probably have some rebellious streaks in them and might be more likely to subtly bash China instead or ignore the nationalism completely, maybe?

Other than that, check out Chinese stories published in the West. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three-Body_Problem_(novel) or something by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Liu .

3Body is not nationalist -- on the contrary! Very against certain practices of Chinese government +_+.

But out of Chinese stories published in the west, I'd avoid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poppy_War . It's a YA fantasy book about a pseudo-Chinese girl who vows revenge on their world's pseudo-Japanese people after their version of pseudo-Nanjing. The book questions the necessity of revenge and justice, but it's nonetheless pretty gruesome and pretty resentful and nationalist about it.

Also, as for Classics -- why not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West ? Since it's about people traveling out of China partly because it's so restrictive and tries to erase history and knowledge and the characters are reclaiming the said knowledge, it might seem anti-nationalist in its message as well, no?

 

[mossplains]

Almighty Coach - It's a boring contemporary story about an ordinary guy who receives a "system" that gives him super capabilities as a coach. It has some criticism of corruption, abuse of power, cronyism, and nepotism in China and tries to be fair to other countries. The part where it gets a little cringe is when he becomes the coach of the US olympic team and wins lots of gold medals. That's where I quit. Still, it's not disparaging others for not being Chinese. He seems like he's trying to fair and accurate, even if he gets some things wrong, and to present people as individuals. However, it's really boring and probably not what you're looking for.

NEET Receives a Dating Sim System - alternate universe contemporary fantasy that takes place in Japan. It got discontinued when the author hinted that the next/main villain will be Chinese. I thought it was really good, and the scenes where the MC is making magical combat contracts with the girls were really hot. The story is well thought out with unique characters and multiple story arcs that are each a standalone story but also lead up to something bigger. Also it gradually and subtly builds a harem, and because it's so gradual and subtle it's much more believable than most harem type stories. Just talking about it makes me want to re-read it.

 

[Discount_Blade]

Almighty Coach - It's a boring contemporary story about an ordinary guy who receives a "system" that gives him super capabilities as a coach. It has some criticism of corruption, abuse of power, cronyism, and nepotism in China and tries to be fair to other countries. The part where it gets a little cringe is when he becomes the coach of the US olympic team and wins lots of gold medals. That's where I quit. Still, it's not disparaging others for not being Chinese. He seems like he's trying to fair and accurate, even if he gets some things wrong, and to present people as individuals. However, it's really boring and probably not what you're looking for.

NEET Receives a Dating Sim System - alternate universe contemporary fantasy that takes place in Japan. It got discontinued when the author hinted that the next/main villain will be Chinese. I thought it was really good, and the scenes where the MC is making magical combat contracts with the girls were really hot. The story is well thought out with unique characters and multiple story arcs that are each a standalone story but also lead up to something bigger. Also it gradually and subtly builds a harem, and because it's so gradual and subtle it's much more believable than most harem type stories. Just talking about it makes me want to re-read it.

Discontinued because next main villains is chinese? Wut?

 

[BlackStarLine]

Heres the oposite of what you wanted, a novel with the most racism and nationalism that I have read:
Legend of the Mythological Genes

Don't even go there. The author wrote himself into a corner and ended the novel so abruptly it was ridiculous.

 

[mossplains]

Discontinued because next main villains is chinese? Wut?

When I searched the comments claimed that it was Chinese state censorship. Maybe it's just a rumor, but what other reason is there to discontinue such a good story? There are plenty of stories with Chinese villains. I guess the difference here is that the heroes weren't Chinese. It really sucks.

 

[Poleg]

This isn't being thickheaded. Also, it's not much of a genetic imprint, more of being raised as a cattle. Modern-day China has many similarities with the Soviet Union. And this isn't about communism, it's about how the state operates and dictates what's wrong and what's right. They rewrite history, they make a cult out of false things to hide actual problems, and they tell everyone that everyone who isn't Chinese is enemies. It isn't just about telling how great China on Chinese TV. It's raising people so that they would obey the state, and it would be easier to manipulate them.

It's not about westerners as well. There was a story about how a Chinese MMA fighter was ostracized for telling that national martial arts that use chi\qi isn't useful. And the government didn't back him up. Because this way, it's more profitable and easy to control the masses. If people learn MMA instead of tai-chi, they can defend themselves better. If they can defend themselves, they don't need so many policemen. And what would happen if they knew that there is a lot of policemen yet they don't need them? People who ask wrong questions are dangerous for such countries.

There is a lot of things that were made up. They are building a new state, with a new culture, and new people. But they aren't doing it for the sake of those people.

It's only my opinion, and this is how I see it. I can be wrong ten out of ten times.

I'm pretty sure I have read somewhere, that Chinese Were like this, even 100 years ago. So I don't think that communism is the main factor, more like a reinforcing factor

 

[The_Long_Serpent]

I'm pretty sure I have read somewhere, that Chinese Were like this, even 100 years ago. So I don't think that communism is the main factor, more like a reinforcing factor

Well, they were a monarchy for a long time, so that has to also be a factor. I think it's the authoritarian nature of the government.

 

[Poleg]

Well, they were a monarchy for a long time, so that has to also be a factor. I think it's the authoritarian nature of the government.

And? A lot of other countries were also monarchies. I don't get your point.