Cultivating

Discount_Blade

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The idea of cultivation is huge and probably is used in many novels, without you even realizing it, so if you can find a way to like the genre...that might be easier lol.

I made up my own and am proud of it.
No 'normal person' is an uber, godly person and you can't learn everything.
I cut it into 2 lots, personal and skill and personal is basically your 5 senses, which you only improve. (Personal is also what everyone can do)
Skill, which is basically mental, physical, spiritial, etc is something you can come up with yourself!
If you don't want a story that has mind control, or whatever, don't put it in. (In my story, everyone had 1 skill, it was rare if someone had more)

A more detailed explanation of my idea on this concept of cultivation is in a chapter of the Anonym & Switch story of mine.
Look up the meaning of cultivation and instead of hating the idea of it, make your own idea of it up. It's your story.
Honestly, any type of learning or acquiring a skill is cultivating so you'll probably have it whether you like it or not...

I basically just made an extremely complicated leveling system for a LITRPG. Basically what I'm writing instead. Well, I'm not sure if its complicated. It just has a various number of sub-sections to the Main System? Dunno how to explain it. It's the first one I've ever written.
 

Discount_Blade

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Actually, has anyone ever shared their System? Like, posted a detailed explanation of how their LitRPG system works/functions? If they are writing one of course...mine is like 4-5 page in a LibreOffice Word document. I'm not sure if that's detailed of just average or not. I added a lot if sub-sections to the main system.

Ones like Randidly Ghosthound baffle me. His introduction of Karma into it to me, fucked the whole thing up and I've been less than interested in continuing his story, especially since he randomly added it at a later part of the story and I guess he just decided to keep it. But that leaves issues for the first 200 or so chapters in the story since I can see several instances where if Karma was a thing, certain scenarios would have played out differently. And he has been less than vocal when others pointed out that his introduction of "Karma" into his system formed a lot of plotholes to earlier parts of the story.

Dunno. If he wasn't willing to go back and rewrite the first chunk of the story to fix the major inconsistencies he created by introducing Karma in the Chapter 300's....he probably shouldn't have added it into the System as a MAJOR mechanic.
 
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TLCsDestiny

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I basically just made an extremely complicated leveling system for a LITRPG. Basically what I'm writing instead. Well, I'm not sure if its complicated. It just has a various number of sub-sections to the Main System? Dunno how to explain it. It's the first one I've ever written.

Cool, complicated system has it's + & -'s
It might be more unique, which a great thing for an author, but at the same time it might get confusing for both you and the reader.
I suggest not to make too many sub sub sub sections so it's still understandable.
Good luck though, coming up with new concepts isn't easy.
 

Discount_Blade

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Cool, complicated system has it's + & -'s
It might be more unique, which a great thing for an author, but at the same time it might get confusing for both you and the reader.
I suggest not to make too many sub sub sub sections so it's still understandable.
Good luck though, coming up with new concepts isn't easy.
Oh no, no decimals and ONLY the most simple of percentages. I hate math. The calculations for mine are elementary-type simple. I hate it when people start dropping algebraic bombs into it. Bleh.
 
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First of all, you are mixing up different terms. Wuxia, Xuanhuan, and Xianxia. I may be wrong here as well. But if I'm not wrong, Sovereign of the Three Realms, Coiling Dragon, and Against The Gods are all Xuanhuan. And this genre implies a more heavy usage of fantasy and so on. Xianxia is much less epic and grand than Xuanhuan. Once again, I may be wrong here but, in Xianxia, there won't be immortals here and there destroying planets and stuff like that. There will be the same ideas though, going through every novel. I've read Against The Gods, it's a Xuanhuan, and it's absolutely the same as all the other ones. It's arguably written a little bit better than others, still, the core of the story doesn't change. You can try and read Wuxia stories. They are less fantasy, if you read manhwa Breaker, you should have a general idea of what is Wuxia.
You are pretty close... to quote an old Nuf thread who was quoting and old redit thread

Wuxia ( 武俠 wǔ xiá ) - literally means "Martial Heroes". Fictional stories about regular humans who can achieve supernatural fighting ability through Chinese martial arts training and internal energy cultivation. Themes of chivalry, tragedy, revenge & romance are common.

Xianxia ( 仙侠 xiānxiá ) - literally means "Immortal Heroes". Fictional stories featuring magic, demons, ghosts, immortals, and a great deal of Chinese folklore/mythology. Protagonists (usually) attempt to cultivate to Immortality, seeking eternal life and the pinnacle of strength. Heavily inspired by Daoism.
  • Comparison: If Wuxia is "low fantasy", then Xianxia is "high fantasy".
Xuanhuan ( 玄幻 xuán huàn ) - literally means "Mysterious Fantasy". A broad genre of fictional stories which remixes Chinese folklore/mythology with foreign elements & settings.
  • Xuanhuan and Xianxia novels may sometimes seem similar on the surface. Look for the presence of Daoist elements (the Dao, Yin and Yang, Immortals, etc...) in the novel to easily distinguish the two – if they aren't present, then the novel is probably Xuanhuan.
However, anyone who place any value in good old genre theory, will have to wrestle with the idea that genres are fluid cultural constructs and that they are not a predetermined set of rules.

rather some can suggest a genre is simply a collection of variable tropes, conventions, and discourse.

in other words when some one say they hate a genre, it is too vague a statement. and it is difficult to pin down what they mean, since a person might hate a specific trope but the same trope might be shared in multiple genres.

to hate harem for example. do people, hate the psychological simplification of partners, or do the hate love triangles, or do the hate deus ex machinas, or the concept of waifu and husbando... some tropes are unique to genres but some are not.

To hate a genre is a reductive statement that over simplify the sentiment of hatre. simular to saying you hate fruit baskets, but in reality the person in question might simply hate apples or citrus or cold vegetation.

I think hating something is fine as people all feel what they feel but part of understanding what you write, is understanding what you hate. or the precise mechanic that grines your gear so to speak. I believe that is a helpful understanding for writers hoping to be better.

and what I just said is just a statement sharing a point of view, s'all.
 

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So, let me start this by saying I hate Xianxia. They almost always follow a similar premise and its typically a shitty one at that. Once you've read one, you've most likely read them all. Even the ones people say are cool tend to be shit. Sovereign of the Three Realms was supposed "the coolness"....but no it sucked too. It was a carbon copy of countless others. People also say the ones by I Eat Plants is good but....no. He's one of the worst offenders in my eyes. The only ones I haven't attempted that people are raving about is Coiling Dragon and Against The Gods, but I'm concerned about trying because I just don't think I'm a fan of the genre. I don't think I CAN be satisfied with it, even good ones.

Also, I can't find Coiling Dragon anywhere that isn't trying to sell it instead. WuxiaWorld removed it from free to read and is now selling it on Amazon and NU's version is mostly WuxiaWorld links so oh well. I was too late.

It might just be me, and not the genre itself. There is another one people raved about but I honestly can't remember it. Something to do with Black Powder or something. Black Powder Empire or Gun Powder Empire? Idk I can't remember the name. Maybe one of you guys know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, my point here is to mention that my distaste for Xianxia is ironic seeing as the thing I've been working on in the background, that after a little over a month of plotting it out, it's starting to resemble a cultivation novel. Not in the most specific sense, but it's starting to resemble it in certain aspects. Meditation is a thing. Clans are a thing. Not sects though, I've never really liked that word. Sect. I've also started plotting potential wars and am running into the same problems Xianxia does. You can't have a war if one person is strong enough to bring the smackdown on an entire army alone. That was one thing that always irritated the piss out of me about Xianxia wars. It was never a war. Just one guy flexing his muscles and cutting thousands down at a time.

It's just ironic is all. Oh well. It's going to start slow paced anyway. 13k words down so far.

Really ironic that I genre I've insulted constantly, (which I'm now concluding it might also be me personally not liking and not just the genre having problems) is kind of taking over my behind-the-scenes thing.
You don't like the genre? What can be added to the genre and taken away for you to like it?

I guess if the insidious parts are creeping into your novel, you can't start there lol.
 

Jemini

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Nope hate it. Got sick of his complete insert of politics and religious opinions. If I wanted to read about how "woke" and "Atheist" an MC is, I'd just drink bleach instead and wash it down with a shot of windex. MC's like him are why, if aliens exist, they are staying far the fuck away from humanity. As they should. Cuz there are so many entitled woke bitches just like him literally dirtying up the planet's limited oxygen supply. The story would be good if someone managed to crush his windpipe so he couldn't talk. Actually no, not even then. We'd still have to read his rants which might be even worse than his dialogue.

Maybe if he died and a more sufferable MC took over? Dunno.

To each their own on personal tastes and pet-peeves, but did any of the reasons you hated it have to do with the same reasons you hated Xianxia? If not, then my point is proven anyway.
 

Jemini

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Anyway, I'm also trying to build a multiverse in which I will be placing multiple stories. I have it set to where a cultivation-based power system is the basic form that exists even if there is no other power system in place. Specific gods in the worlds can then manipulate the energies associated with the cultivation system in order to create other forms of power systems.

Leveling systems are among those that are crafted from the basic cultivation form.

I also have it set up that humans are one of the better sources of the energy that is used in the cultivation, prompting several to capture humans to use in order to empower themselves. Primarily though, it is the gods that have the most efficient methods of using humans for their cultivation. Other races don't mess with humans who follow a god, because being the followers of a god means that god can cultivate off the energy of all their followers, and they will not take kindly to having one of their followers kidnapped.

(Basically, I looked at medeival fairy lore and thought up this system as a method to explain the behavior of the fairy creatures and other supernatural creatures. In particular the fact that a lot of these fairy creatures liked to kidnap humans and a lot of supernatural creatures were weak to holy objects. It's a complicated system, but that's because I fit the system to something in actual lore.)

I posted this collection of the first chapters of 3 different stories that take place in this multiverse. I am currently writing and posting one of them, and have another soon to launch.

 

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The patience to fully enjoy Xianxia is a talent I do not have.

I remember liking the ones I read, but they're also sitting abandoned on my reading list so maybe not. I got like, 600 chapters into Sovereign of The Three Realms because I was still naive in the ways of Xianxia and CN's in general. I looked forward to the reveal moment when people realized the MC used to be an immortal and all that stuff. It was then i realized the story was unfinished/ untranslated (I didn't know for some reason?) and I flaked away from it eventually. I think it's completed now so I might finish it someday.
Then there's Emperors Domination that I dropped after a few arcs for reasons I no longer remember. Oh there's also Reverend Insanity, which I think I liked ( I have a thing for evil MC's) and recently reread, but ended up flaking away again a few chapters after where I dropped it last time. Currently unfinished to this day, but I hope to go and finish reading it one day.

All of my Xianxia ventures are completely fruitless and I get bored reading the same thing after a few hundred chapters or so.
 

YuriDoggo

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Xianxia is a specific sub-genre within the cultivation-style story telling. It has specific plot points that need to be filled in order to be considered Xianxia, and those specific points are so limiting it just about completely kills any and all creativity.
Bold claim. Care to back it up? Like listing some of the "plot points that need to be filled in order to be considered Xianxia."
 

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Bold claim. Care to back it up? Like listing some of the "plot points that need to be filled in order to be considered Xianxia."

1. Protagonist is cultivating in order to become a literal god.
2. The culture of the region is based on historical Chinese nobility.
3. The top 4 or 5 ranks of the cultivation process are always the same (which I never bothered to learn the names of, outside of nacent soul which is one of the earlier ranks of the top 4 or 5.)
4. There is an established higherarchy of others already training in their cultivation, and there are people far more advanced than the protagonist.
5. It is well established and agreed that the best way to progress in your cultivation is through the training and information you gain from joining a sect, which takes the form of a stupid combination of a Tibeten monastery with the forbidden city. (The Chinese equivalent of Vatican city, except instead of religious leaders it was the government of China that lived there.)

It is the combination of the last 2 that are seriously problematic and damaging to the plot. it's the thing that rail-roads the plot and eliminates all the major threats the protagonist can face, and instead limits the potential threats to a very few that wind up getting repeated over and over again.
 
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Discount_Blade

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1. Protagonist is cultivating in order to become a literal god.
2. The culture of the region is based on historical Chinese nobility.
3. The top 4 or 5 ranks of the cultivation process are always the same (which I never bothered to learn the names of, outside of nacent soul which is one of the earlier ranks of the top 4 or 5.)
4. There is an established higherarchy of others already training in their cultivation, and there are people far more advanced than the protagonist.
5. It is well established and agreed that the best way to progress in your cultivation is through the training and information you gain from joining a sect, which takes the form of a stupid combination of a Tibeten monastery with the forbidden city. (The Chinese equivalent of Vatican city, except instead of religious leaders it was the government of China that lived there.)

It is the combination of the last 2 that are seriously problematic and damaging to the plot. it's the thing that rail-roads the plot and eliminates all the major threats the protagonist can face, and instead limits the potential threats to a very few that wind up getting repeated over and over again.
You'll have to expand what you mean on #5. Not doubting you since I can explain the inherent problems with Xianxia's as well...but you weren't very clear on this one so I didn't understand it. Can you be more specific?
 

Jemini

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You'll have to expand what you mean on #5. Not doubting you since I can explain the inherent problems with Xianxia's as well...but you weren't very clear on this one so I didn't understand it. Can you be more specific?

Basically, what it means is 1. Sects exist. 2. The sects are a combination between a Tibeten monastary in that they train people like monks and the forbidden city in that there's a lot of messy politics and secretism. 3. The sects have all the best information to help in cultivating faster and the most effectively.

So, this means that it's not a requirement of the genre that the protagonist joins a sect. It's just not going to work out very well for them if they don't. And, when they do, they are going to get caught up in the politics.

Really, the strength of western written cultivation stories rests entirely in the ability to break trope #5 without even giving it a second thought. In fact, #4 is usually about the only one western writers ever actually care to use. We usually just dump the rest of the standard Xianxia tropes aside from that one.

Thanks to our ability to dump #5 in particular though, it frees up the cultivation concept as a power system and allows it to be inserted into a story that might actually be pretty interesting.
 

GDLiZy

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1. Protagonist is cultivating in order to become a literal god.
2. The culture of the region is based on historical Chinese nobility.
3. The top 4 or 5 ranks of the cultivation process are always the same (which I never bothered to learn the names of, outside of nacent soul which is one of the earlier ranks of the top 4 or 5.)
4. There is an established higherarchy of others already training in their cultivation, and there are people far more advanced than the protagonist.
5. It is well established and agreed that the best way to progress in your cultivation is through the training and information you gain from joining a sect, which takes the form of a stupid combination of a Tibeten monastery with the forbidden city. (The Chinese equivalent of Vatican city, except instead of religious leaders it was the government of China that lived there.)
Only the first two are required, the rest is just supplementary, and it did almost nothing to hammer creativity like you dreadfully said.

The fifth one is actually realistic. It's like the best way to learn something is to actually join a group of that specific topic where everyone is sharing information to improve their understanding (going to school to study is actually better than aimlessly doing things yourself, surprisingly).
 

Jemini

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Only the first two are required, the rest is just supplementary, and it did almost nothing to hammer creativity like you dreadfully said.

The fifth one is actually realistic. It's like the best way to learn something is to actually join a group of that specific topic where everyone is sharing information to improve their understanding (going to school to study is actually better than aimlessly doing things yourself, surprisingly).

Yes, but a story about gangs on a street is more interesting than a story about a kid going to school. It's not about whether or not it's realistic. It's about the fact that it limits what can be done creatively in order to tell an interesting story.

If it's just realistic given the initial premise for the sects to exist, then change the initial premise. Doesn't seem like very many Xianxia writers have the ability to do that.
 

GDLiZy

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Yes, but a story about gangs on a street is more interesting than a story about a kid going to school. It's not about whether or not it's realistic. It's about the fact that it limits what can be done creatively in order to tell an interesting story.

If it's just realistic given the initial premise for the sects to exist, then change the initial premise. Doesn't seem like very many Xianxia writers have the ability to do that.
Oversimplification. A kid going to a battle school to study magic then get tangled in the political scheme is more interesting than a gang running on a street. It does as much damage as a fantasy setting does to a western fantasy story.

It isn't even required for you to go to a sect, and you can do countless things to force the MC out.
 

Jemini

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Oversimplification. A kid going to a battle school to study magic then get tangled in the political scheme is more interesting than a gang running on a street. It does as much damage as a fantasy setting does to a western fantasy story.

It isn't even required for you to go to a sect, and you can do countless things to force the MC out.

Now you are changing the venue up for discussion. You can't bring one item to the magical world without bringing both.

A better analogy would be comparing Harry Potter to Eragon. Of the two, Eragon was the more interesting and kept your attention better.

Now, imagine if every single writer to open a word doccument all wanted to re-tell Harry Potter and the market was absolutely saturated with Harry Potter clones. This would even further harm the interest in the genre if that was all that magical fantasy ever was.

That's a pretty darn accurate comparison to what Xianxia is for the cultivation concept.
 

GDLiZy

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Now you are changing the venue up for discussion. You can't bring one item to the magical world without bringing both.

A better analogy would be comparing Harry Potter to Eragon. Of the two, Eragon was the more interesting and kept your attention better.

Now, imagine if every single writer to open a word doccument all wanted to re-tell Harry Potter and the market was absolutely saturated with Harry Potter clones. This would even further harm the interest in the genre if that was all that magical fantasy ever was.

That's a pretty darn accurate comparison to what Xianxia is for the cultivation concept.
The same can be said about any other genre there is. Countless retelling of anything would be boring, as would xianxia or Harry Potter or Eragon.

Just because bad authors write bad stories about xianxia doesn't mean that xianxia is inherently a creatively exhausted genre.
 

YuriDoggo

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1. Protagonist is cultivating in order to become a literal god.
2. The culture of the region is based on historical Chinese nobility.
3. The top 4 or 5 ranks of the cultivation process are always the same (which I never bothered to learn the names of, outside of nacent soul which is one of the earlier ranks of the top 4 or 5.)
4. There is an established higherarchy of others already training in their cultivation, and there are people far more advanced than the protagonist.
5. It is well established and agreed that the best way to progress in your cultivation is through the training and information you gain from joining a sect, which takes the form of a stupid combination of a Tibeten monastery with the forbidden city. (The Chinese equivalent of Vatican city, except instead of religious leaders it was the government of China that lived there.)

It is the combination of the last 2 that are seriously problematic and damaging to the plot. it's the thing that rail-roads the plot and eliminates all the major threats the protagonist can face, and instead limits the potential threats to a very few that wind up getting repeated over and over again.

Lizy has said a lot about about why your complaint can be valid in some generic cases but isn't actually that applicable. There's a term for cultivators that don't join sects and there are plenty of protagonists do that. Even if they do join, there are different flavors of sects. There's the happy go lucky ones with basically no rule, the stupid places were there's full of bullies that torture the protagonist, the """standard""" ones. There's themed ones like swords, like plants, like music, regional differences. Different goals.

If your idea of a sect is formed by stuffing them all into the single description of "tibeten monastery + forbidden city" there's no wonder you can't appreciate Eastern Xianxia. Sects are more like organizations, like schools, as well as homes. Allied ones can be resting stops where the protagonist experience new things and make new friends while enemies are like fortresses with bosses.

But sure, group them all into monastery + forbidden city. LOL.

As for #4...
"There's an established hierarchy of others already in the level process, and there are people far more high leveled than the protagonist."
"There's an established hierarchy of others already in the training process, and there are people far more skilled than the protagonist."

Wake up. Stratified, tiered systems are far from unique to Xianxia and I have no idea why you're considering it to be so damaging when countless novels use it. Besides, many novels have stronger things and weaker things, with weaker things rarely able to usurp the power of the stronger (duh). Just because xianxia clearly delineates cut-off points for different levels of skill/power doesn't make it any worse.

To put it bluntly, I think you're wrong.
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A better analogy would be comparing Harry Potter to Eragon. Of the two, Eragon was the more interesting and kept your attention better.

Now, imagine if every single writer to open a word doccument all wanted to re-tell Harry Potter and the market was absolutely saturated with Harry Potter clones. This would even further harm the interest in the genre if that was all that magical fantasy ever was.

That's a pretty darn accurate comparison to what Xianxia is for the cultivation concept.
Speak for yourself. Harry Potter is more interesting. Well, i haven't read all of it, but the few bits I did was better than Eragon. Not to mention they're not even the same style of story.
Anyways, Eragon itself is a Star Wars clone, and even if it's not 1:1, it's still a copy of the story plot process that is the Hero's Journey.

One copies the plot, and the other uses a setting as a template. They're both copying and both have the potential to be good or bad.
 
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Jemini

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Lizy has said a lot about about why your complaint can be valid in some generic cases but isn't actually that applicable. There's a term for cultivators that don't join sects and there are plenty of protagonists do that. Even if they do join, there are different flavors of sects. There's the happy go lucky ones with basically no rule, the stupid places were there's full of bullies that torture the protagonist, the """standard""" ones. There's themed ones like swords, like plants, like music, regional differences. Different goals.

Not the main problem. The main problem is, how does the protagonist face adversity? How does the protagonist get challenged? Because they are part of a sect, they are protected against most of the external dangers that could actually make the story interesting. Therefore, you need to either come up with contrived ways for the protections of the sect to fail or come up with some kind of internal drama from within the sect. There's only a limited number of ways you can do either, and with so many people writing Xianxia you are going to exhaust those limited number of ways extremely fast.

It has nothing to do with the quality of writer. It has everything to do with how much of a straight-jacket the sects are on the plot. It doesn't matter how good the author is, they all face up against the fact that they are limited for the number of ways they can manage their way around the difficulty presented by the sects, and they are almost guranteed to deal with it in the same exact way someone before them did because literally every single one of the very limited number of ways to deal with it has been done before.

And, it also doesn't matter if they are an amazing writer who expertly pulls off their implementation of how to still make the story interesting despite the sects. Someone else did it worse than them in the past, and the previous person doing it worse than them has soured the audience's acceptance of the method they are using.

Speak for yourself. Harry Potter is more interesting. Well, i haven't read all of it, but the few bits I did was better than Eragon. Not to mention they're not even the same style of story.
Anyways, Eragon itself is a Star Wars clone, and even if it's not 1:1, it's still a copy of the story plot process that is the Hero's Journey.

One copies the plot, and the other uses a setting as a template. They're both copying and both have the potential to be good or bad.

1. Harry potter was more or less the same book 6 times, followed by the Deathly Hollows which was the first in the series to actually leave the formula.
2. Calling Eragon a Star Wars clone does not harm my point. Star Wars is interesting, therefore if Eragon is a Star Wars clone you are saying that Eragon effectively borrows the things that made Star Wars interesting.
3. I was not comparing the writing quality of the two stories. Indeed, I would have to say Harry Potter is the better written of the two stories. Eragon, however, has more dynamic differences between each book and more action going for it. It also introduces more compelling drama and stakes on a more regular basis. You can talk about it being contrived, but the plot structure it follows is more interesting than just someone going to school.
4. The reason I picked Eragon and Harry Potter for my comparison was that 1. they were both fantasy. My point was that you need to compare same genre with same genre, and I was arguing against someone who was comparing wizard school to non-magical street gangs instead of normal non-magical school to street gangs. Thus, I came up with an appropriate fantasy world item to use in the comparison. 2. Hogwarts in Harry Potter is actually a fairly good analogy to a Xianxia sect in the fantasy genre.

Please try to understand my point before criticizing it.

EDIT: Perhaps another good comparison would have been Static Shock to Harry Potter. Static Shock, when you look at it closely, is a story about super heroes in youth street gang situations. Eventually it escalates into higher-tier crime just like Harry Potter eventually escalates into a wizard war. That might have been the better answer if we wanted to bring the incredible into the picture.
 
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