Writing Face Slappers!

[thedude3445]

Ever heard of the Chinese term 'face'? Face slapping is a trope where mc humiliates(and sometimes literally slaps) the antagonist who usually underestimates the mc. A more easy-going version of usual revenge, where readers get a sense of satisfaction much faster. You can say that a revenge story is homemade food, while face-slapping is junk food.

If it's humiliating the antagonist, shouldn't it be called "heel slapping?" Or does China not have a pro wrestling circuit?

 

[SailusGebel]

If it's humiliating the antagonist, shouldn't it be called "heel slapping?" Or does China not have a pro wrestling circuit?

I heard CIMA went there to raise rookies, the quality of wrestling, and the whole business, but it's not nearly as popular as in Japan.

 

[Generic.Archdemon]

But likewise from GoT

How about little finger in the final stretch? I felt a little iffy about the logic of the scene, but it was pretty satisfying for me...

Light Yagami from Death Note?

I only read the manga version, That was pretty good.

For me, the satisfaction... the mechanics of it came from the antagonist's believe they are right/or untouchable, then being told that they have failed. The hight from which they fall is the key for me. and the "hight" is determined by how long or how many times, the villain "gets away with it".

Anyway, just a fun fact side note.
I pretty much agree with everything @flucket said.

The idea that face is linked with "reputation" is no doubt true. But in parallel, it also has a link to an old adage.

打人不打脸，骂人不揭短​

Translate roughly to
If you hit a person, don't hit the face, if you scold someone, don't point to their inadequacies.

the old saying concerns the etiquette of an argument or a "fight"
In a debate or disagreement, there is a line that one should not cross, that is to say in an act of combat, to hit a person, don't strike a fatal blow, to argue a point is fine, but do no to make a personal attack. Both face and inadequacies concern a person's self-esteem, reputation.

For example, if your opponent's argument is flawed, pointing out the problem, and inconsistency with their statements while leaving room for the person to explain themselves is good.

But to called them an idiot for trying to use a distorted fact that was warp to fit their argument and that they are too stupid to see what a narrow-minded intolerant piece of dumpster scum they are, That would be an inappropriate response.

And in the heat of an argument, it would be more tempting or pleasurable to do the latter, but will not make the world a better forum for the exchange of ideas...

In fiction unlike in real life, there is no need to preserve the feelings of the antagonist. and to "hit/slap face" is to attack even their most sensitive spots to attack someone's pride to attack to a point of irreconcilable differences,...

 

[BenJepheneT]

I don't know about you guys but my favourite "face slap" moments are always small, slow burns and usually demonstrate the downfall via the antagonist's own action, and not the Protag's doing.

It's more of a nitpick in my part. Everytime I see a face-slap moment that comes suddenly and directly from the protag it always feels artificial and set-up for me (e.g Shield Hero and Bitch), no matter how well written it is.

One of my favourite face slaps are akin to the downfall of Griffith from Berserk. Where his obsession with glory and his ego sees himself inadvertently distancing with Guts, culminating in a spiral of bad decisions and worse outcomes at the end. Without the behelit, he would've made his own downfall. And that all spanned throughout one fifth of an arc that took around a hundred or so chapters, with proper build up and a proper fall.

Or like Musashi from Vagabond, where his own face slap moments comes from his realization about the world. There's no major plot point that shows his growth but rather, a slow dance to tranquility where he realizes his true worth, all culminating to the point where he reaches his cell. There's no sudden snap or blast, and by the time the reader realizes the change, it's already happened eons ago.

Hell, these moments might not even constitute as a face slap moment, considering my examples don't even have an antagonist half the time, but that's my two cents on this: the face-slap may be satisfying with a quick whip from the protagonist, but it comes all the better when the antagonist himself is his own downfall, and that the protagonist is merely a push over the edge for said antagonist.

 

[Queenfisher]

@flucket ...

Once again, I lost what your post was and have to go off my memory! But thanks for pitching in (even if you delete it afterwards ).

I don't really think Western stuff does it as much since the very aspect of face-slapping - like @SailusGebel said:


- it's more of to do with reputation (face) than just straight up insulting/violence. Of course, those two things are sometimes a bonus depending on how black-hearted the target was.
>w>
<w<

Hmm, I can't really think of Western examples...
orz


X

Face how I understand the term is a complicated mixture of ego, self-esteem, how the said person is seen by the peers, and yeah, reputation. Face-slapping is basically destroying the image of the slapped person, and that's what humiliates the person, not an actual slap or a one-liner. But the feeling of getting stripped of his social standing\position\respect. There is something similar in the culture of my country so it's kind of easier to understand this than to explain it to others.

What amuses me here is that, while we all agree with what it should be -- on practice, it is still pretty vague because even in the examples I offered, people's opinions differ on which example satisfies FaceSlapping criteria and which does not.

Re: the concept of "face" --

I also come from a culture that uses "face" as a honor/self-esteem/reputation allegory. But the thing is -- a lot of the actual face-slapping episodes I've read in xianxia are done in one-on-one situations where there is not so much loss of dignity or the destruction of the image being done as just the normal "revenge" humiliation that wouldn't go outside the parties who are doing the deed.

Likewise, when @flucket quoted Cersei's Shame-walk being an ego-destroying moment but Light Yagami's "Lol, you're just a serial killer" is not -- I have to ask: was Light Yagami not in front of several peers who had held immense respect for him? And he had even managed to intimidate at least one of them by his "tall talk" about his ideology and actions.

It's only after Near calls him out on that when Light snaps and has to run away -- with nobody following him because they don't even need to. He has lost everything already, including his life and everyone's respect. I get it that Light does not feel shame or humiliation therefore it is not ego-destroying to him. But I think he never will. He is just not a kind of a person who knows shame (I think).

Actually, there is this common storyline in JJBA (Jojo's Bizarre Adventure) villains that they are laser-focused on victory regardless of how low, shameful, or indignant they have to become in order to get ahead. Losing face for them is nothing. Just one of the many things to manipulate in order to win.

Does it mean that there are no face-slapping moments there? I think some of the beatdowns and humiliation of such villains there are considered to be one of the most satisfying to watch. Thus... face-slapping is not necessarily about destroying esteem/respect/self-image?

So as always, I am both intrigued and confused.

How about little finger in the final stretch? I felt a little iffy about the logic of the scene, but it was pretty satisfying for me...


I only read the manga version, That was pretty good.

For me, the satisfaction... the mechanics of it came from the antagonist's believe they are right/or untouchable, then being told that they have failed. The hight from which they fall is the key for me. and the "hight" is determined by how long or how many times, the villain "gets away with it".

Anyway, just a fun fact side note.
I pretty much agree with everything @flucket said.

The idea that face is linked with "reputation" is no doubt true. But in parallel, it also has a link to an old adage.

打人不打脸，骂人不揭短​

Translate roughly to
If you hit a person, don't hit the face, if you scold someone, don't point to their inadequacies.

In fiction unlike in real life, there is no need to preserve the feelings of the antagonist. and to "hit/slap face" is to attack even their most sensitive spots to attack someone's pride to attack to a point of irreconcilable differences,...

I like this version of an explanation better ^^. Thanks!

And I think it gels well with the next one, too:

I don't know about you guys but my favourite "face slap" moments are always small, slow burns and usually demonstrate the downfall via the antagonist's own action, and not the Protag's doing.

I think, in short -- it just means that face-slapping would constitute a specific attack at the most vulnerable specific facet of pride of an enemy, and that's it...?

For almost all foes -- it's pride and ego.

But it can manifest in different ways. Being proven ideologically wrong can hit someone like Griffith harder than being humiliated in front of others in some other way.

Their peerless image dragged through mud will devastate a socially-conscious antagonist but will not harm one who is like a cockroach, only focused on surviving and getting away no mater what.

For some of them, being invisible and unseen is the point of pride (Littlefinger, Kira Yoshikage, etc) and even the threat of exposure is a face-slap because they have failed against their own arbitrary rules of what makes them cool.

Likewise, for someone like Cersei, being shamed is not so much devastating because she is being shamed but (as far as I remember her bitching about it all) -- the fact that she: 1) did it to herself by scheming beyond hr capabilities, 2) males in the same exact situation as her -- were NOT shamed --> it is MUCH more unjust that she is. (Not so much the question of pride as the question of overall injustice, though ).

I think that's the closest I've gotten to deciphering face-slapping for myself! (*v*)

Thanks everyone for pitching in! Huggles to all!

 

[SailusGebel]

@flucket ...

Once again, I lost what your post was and have to go off my memory! But thanks for pitching in (even if you delete it afterwards ).





What amuses me here is that, while we all agree with what it should be -- on practice, it is still pretty vague because even in the examples I offered, people's opinions differ on which example satisfies FaceSlapping criteria and which does not.

Re: the concept of "face" --

I also come from a culture that uses "face" as a honor/self-esteem/reputation allegory. But the thing is -- a lot of the actual face-slapping episodes I've read in xianxia are done in one-on-one situations where there is not so much loss of dignity or the destruction of the image being done as just the normal "revenge" humiliation that wouldn't go outside the parties who are doing the deed.

Likewise, when @flucket quoted Cersei's Shame-walk being an ego-destroying moment but Light Yagami's "Lol, you're just a serial killer" is not -- I have to ask: was Light Yagami not in front of several peers who had held immense respect for him? And he had even managed to intimidate at least one of them by his "tall talk" about his ideology and actions.

It's only after Near calls him out on that when Light snaps and has to run away -- with nobody following him because they don't even need to. He has lost everything already, including his life and everyone's respect. I get it that Light does not feel shame or humiliation therefore it is not ego-destroying to him. But I think he never will. He is just not a kind of a person who knows shame (I think).

Actually, there is this common storyline in JJBA (Jojo's Bizarre Adventure) villains that they are laser-focused on victory regardless of how low, shameful, or indignant they have to become in order to get ahead. Losing face for them is nothing. Just one of the many things to manipulate in order to win.

Does it mean that there are no face-slapping moments there? I think some of the beatdowns and humiliation of such villains there are considered to be one of the most satisfying to watch. Thus... face-slapping is not necessarily about destroying esteem/respect/self-image?

So as always, I am both intrigued and confused.



I like this version of an explanation better ^^. Thanks!

And I think it gels well with the next one, too:



I think, in short -- it just means that face-slapping would constitute a specific attack at the most vulnerable specific facet of pride of an enemy, and that's it...?

For almost all foes -- it's pride and ego.

But it can manifest in different ways. Being proven ideologically wrong can hit someone like Griffith harder than being humiliated in front of others in some other way.

Their peerless image dragged through mud will devastate a socially-conscious antagonist but will not harm one who is like a cockroach, only focused on surviving and getting away no mater what.

For some of them, being invisible and unseen is the point of pride (Littlefinger, Kira Yoshikage, etc) and even the threat of exposure is a face-slap because they have failed against their own arbitrary rules of what makes them cool.

Likewise, for someone like Cersei, being shamed is not so much devastating because she is being shamed but (as far as I remember her bitching about it all) -- the fact that she: 1) did it to herself by scheming beyond hr capabilities, 2) males in the same exact situation as her -- were NOT shamed --> it is MUCH more unjust that she is. (Not so much the question of pride as the question of overall injustice, though ).

I think that's the closest I've gotten to deciphering face-slapping for myself! (*v*)

Thanks everyone for pitching in! Huggles to all!

The face is more of a philosophical term. And that's why discussions about-face isn't going anywhere. You don't have 'right' and 'wrong' answers in philosophy, it's a constant discussion that would eventually lead us to nowhere. Everyone would have their own opinion and you can't say that this or that one is wrong. Especially because we have different cultural codes. The Chinese way of living makes a difference from a face-slapping and revenge, whereas for us we can't draw a clear line. It's like those hard to translate words in different languages.
As a side note, if I understood everything correctly by seeing some of your posts, we are either from one, or very close cultures(countries).

 

[Queenfisher]

The face is more of a philosophical term. And that's why discussions about-face isn't going anywhere. You don't have 'right' and 'wrong' answers in philosophy, it's a constant discussion that would eventually lead us to nowhere. Everyone would have their own opinion and you can't say that this or that one is wrong. Especially because we have different cultural codes. The Chinese way of living makes a difference from a face-slapping and revenge, whereas for us we can't draw a clear line. It's like those hard to translate words in different languages.
As a side note, if I understood everything correctly by seeing some of your posts, we are either from one, or very close cultures(countries).

Yep ^^. Russian by language.

And I just began this thread because I was confused by how widespread and ambiguous "face-slapping" descriptions were on NU reviews of certain books. At some point, I just felt the need to ask what it was once and for all because CNs confuse the hell out of me.

I think, the majority of people on NU reviews use face-slapping to mean a hysterical drama a-ka Bollywood, sometimes with actual slaps that reverberate thousand-fold in deafening silence, or something ??? It's not overly helpful because they can also use it for masterful political intrigue instead, so...

Likewise, "dogblood" is another term I have severe troubles with getting. I think "dogblood" often accompanies "face-slapping" but I'm not sure if I understand the term correctly.

In short, I want to avoid writing "face-slapping" if it means something negative (like a scene that is over-dramatic and cheap), but I also want to reap the benefits of "face-slapping" when people say it's "incredibly satisfying". For that, I needed people of SHF to pitch in their definitions. I liked some of them a lot because they managed to encompass the wider range of what I want to ultimately achieve in my own writing.

 

[Kldran]

I think the main key for "face slapping" is that it's a social conflict. There's winning, and losing, and it's usually important that the loser know and realize they've lost (and I think this is more important than whether or not others do, which is why it works in a 1 on 1). Now, the loser doesn't have to accept their defeat for it to count, and often denial occurs in a way that merely proves their loss. It's the social version of beating an opponent up in a fight.

 

[Discount_Blade]

Can I get an explanation on what "face-slapping writing" is

Ah. Nvm. I get it. Sorry.

 

[SailusGebel]

Can I get an explanation on what "face-slapping writing" is?

Perhaps to write a scene(s) with face-slapping? At least that's how I understood this.