Game Industry Observations

Pixytokisaki14

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Welcome to dark age of gaming where developers release a game unfinished *cough BF2042 and Cyberpunk* and greedy corporates shove in game transactions down your throat. Not to mention the woke injection thats targeted at the "modern audiences" that doesn't exist
 

RepresentingEnvy

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Welcome to dark age of gaming where developers release a game unfinished *cough BF2042 and Cyberpunk* and greedy corporates shove in game transactions down your throat. Not to mention the woke injection thats targeted at the "modern audiences" that doesn't exist
This problem isn't really that new. When I think about it, they have done it since arcade gaming. At that time, it was making the game harder so people would put in more coins. I am sure they would have done the microtransaction stuff even then if it was plausible.
 

SailusGebel

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This problem isn't really that new. When I think about it, they have done it since arcade gaming. At that time, it was making the game harder so people would put in more coins. I am sure they would have done the microtransaction stuff even then if it was plausible.
The problem isn't new, but due to technology development, now it's really hard to make a AAA game alone or with a bunch of friends. You sure as hell can make a megahit, but you simply can't cross that gap and make AAA game from the get-go. We had a brief moment of time when it was possible, but it lasted for less than 10 years. P.S. I'm talking about PC gaming.
 

RepresentingEnvy

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The problem isn't new, but due to technology development, now it's really hard to make a AAA game alone or with a bunch of friends. You sure as hell can make a megahit, but you simply can't cross that gap and make AAA game from the get-go. We had a brief moment of time when it was possible, but it lasted for less than 10 years. P.S. I'm talking about PC gaming.
Indie game scene has still been relatively lively, and it's easier for a random Joe to make a game now. I know it's hard, but it happened with a few, like Vampire Survivors and Valheim off the top of my head.
Indie game scene has still been relatively lively, and it's easier for a random Joe to make a game now. I know it's hard, but it happened with a few, like Vampire Survivors and Valheim off the top of my head.
Though a big problem with indie game scene is Early Access and never finish game. Hard to trust devs.
 

Anon2024

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The problem isn't new, but due to technology development, now it's really hard to make a AAA game alone or with a bunch of friends. You sure as hell can make a megahit, but you simply can't cross that gap and make AAA game from the get-go. We had a brief moment of time when it was possible, but it lasted for less than 10 years. P.S. I'm talking about PC gaming.
I disagree, you don't need 9,000 people to make a AAA game. Honestly, I don't even think the "it's too expensive" argument even works since while technology is higher, the tools to develop those games are also "MUCH BETTER."

I feel this is CEO and INVESTOR talk to try and make GAMERS have lower expectations or accept their version of reality.
You've got single person developers now making games that are better than the PS2 Era as Indie developers. So to me it's a load of crap.
 

melchi

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I'm not sure the two complaints that Anon are making are related.

1.)Woke
2.)Investors

Many games have diversity consultants hired to edit some things. These are _NOT_ the heavy hitters. These are editors. They might change some language or ask for some scenes to be redone. While a lot of their input may make the game worse if the game was already not-fun as a concept hiring a diversity consultant wouldn't change the overall reception.

I don't consider myself very woke. But dorkly did a bit called "social justice warrior" that was expertly written. If that was an actual old-school rpg game I'd totally play it. Writing is a big part of a game but it is not the foundation.

So for investors, this I think is a bigger issue. I'd suggest checking out Ken Williams book "Not all fairy tales have happy endings" to get a better idea on how video game publishers die. One of the things that he said was a big mistake was dealing with venture capitalists. (He was founder and CEO of sierra online) What venture capitalists want is a 10x return on their investment. They want this to happen by having a successful IPO launch. Ideally, the stocks will get released and there will be a buying frenzy that causing the price to shoot up and they get their 10x return in short order.

So would the solution be to have gaming companies all be private, non traded companies? Yes, this would be ideal. However, how much does hiring a full time software engineer cost? $100,000 a year? If BG3's studio has 450 people then need to be bringing in $45 million each year to pay their employees. So, if they just gave blackrock the middle finger and said they didn't need an IPO how much cash on hand would they have? Could they keep those 450 people paid for the 2 to 4 years to make their next game?

The company investors want a return on their investment. It is a well known idiom that you can tell a good engineer because he/she will never finish anything. They will always want to improve the thing they thought then finished but after looking at it saw problems and wants to fix it. But time is not free. There has to be a balance for the company to remain viable. If there is someone who is to blame for the crappy video games coming out it is not a movement. Like all companies the buck stops at the top. If a problem is big enough, long enough to cause a bankruptcy the higherups are always to blame even if they didn't know about it.
 

Anon2024

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I'm not sure the two complaints that Anon are making are related.

1.)Woke
2.)Investors

Many games have diversity consultants hired to edit some things. These are _NOT_ the heavy hitters. These are editors. They might change some language or ask for some scenes to be redone. While a lot of their input may make the game worse if the game was already not-fun as a concept hiring a diversity consultant wouldn't change the overall reception.

I don't consider myself very woke. But dorkly did a bit called "social justice warrior" that was expertly written. If that was an actual old-school rpg game I'd totally play it. Writing is a big part of a game but it is not the foundation.

So for investors, this I think is a bigger issue. I'd suggest checking out Ken Williams book "Not all fairy tales have happy endings" to get a better idea on how video game publishers die. One of the things that he said was a big mistake was dealing with venture capitalists. (He was founder and CEO of sierra online) What venture capitalists want is a 10x return on their investment. They want this to happen by having a successful IPO launch. Ideally, the stocks will get released and there will be a buying frenzy that causing the price to shoot up and they get their 10x return in short order.

So would the solution be to have gaming companies all be private, non traded companies? Yes, this would be ideal. However, how much does hiring a full time software engineer cost? $100,000 a year? If BG3's studio has 450 people then need to be bringing in $45 million each year to pay their employees. So, if they just gave blackrock the middle finger and said they didn't need an IPO how much cash on hand would they have? Could they keep those 450 people paid for the 2 to 4 years to make their next game?

The company investors want a return on their investment. It is a well known idiom that you can tell a good engineer because he/she will never finish anything. They will always want to improve the thing they thought then finished but after looking at it saw problems and wants to fix it. But time is not free. There has to be a balance for the company to remain viable. If there is someone who is to blame for the crappy video games coming out it is not a movement. Like all companies the buck stops at the top. If a problem is big enough, long enough to cause a bankruptcy the higherups are always to blame even if they didn't know about it.
Every day, I feel like we should outlaw public trading.
 

Anon2024

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Now you just sound like henry ford :P
I'm not against trading shares. I just believe all shareholders who own stock should be allowed to vote and veto a new buyer, something that isn't allowed in Public trading.
 

SailusGebel

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Indie game scene has still been relatively lively, and it's easier for a random Joe to make a game now. I know it's hard, but it happened with a few, like Vampire Survivors and Valheim off the top of my head.
Yes, I was talking about those games. They are fun, and cool, and they can't compete with AAA games. Here's what I am talking about. Before, a small team was able to make Enclave. Compare it with games that came out the same year. WC3 ROC, GTA Vice City, Morrowind, and so on. Obviously WC3, GTA, and TES are much more well-known, much more succesful, and overall better games. No doubt. But if you compare WHO made it, and compare budgets, and so on, you will understand what I mean. Although Enclave was not able offer as much in terms of gameplay, it looked just like any other game made by a great, established studio. And the engine for that game if I remember it correctly was made by one person. And Enclave isn't even the best example. What about Mafia?

Ehem. Can a single person make a new engine for a game nowadays? Can a team of, let's say, 100 people make a game that at least looks like BG3 nowadays? Sure, artstyle is important, gameplay is even more important, but graphics are also important.
 

Anon2024

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Yes, I was talking about those games. They are fun, and cool, and they can't compete with AAA games. Here's what I am talking about. Before, a small team was able to make Enclave. Compare it with games that came out the same year. WC3 ROC, GTA Vice City, Morrowind, and so on. Obviously WC3, GTA, and TES are much more well-known, much more succesful, and overall better games. No doubt. But if you compare WHO made it, and compare budgets, and so on, you will understand what I mean. Although Enclave was not able offer as much in terms of gameplay, it looked just like any other game made by a great, established studio. And the engine for that game if I remember it correctly was made by one person. And Enclave isn't even the best example. What about Mafia?

Ehem. Can a single person make a new engine for a game nowadays? Can a team of, let's say, 100 people make a game that at least looks like BG3 nowadays? Sure, artstyle is important, gameplay is even more important, but graphics are also important.
To be honest, it doesn't really matter.
If the people at the top lose money, then hopefully the current indie developers will get big enough to make the AAA games of the future.

Valve, and a few other Indies are not publicly traded so they have a chance to keep growing. A company like CD Projekt Red started out with the Witcher 1 which was very... rough... but eventually grew big enough to be a AAA player.
 

RepresentingEnvy

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Yes, I was talking about those games. They are fun, and cool, and they can't compete with AAA games. Here's what I am talking about. Before, a small team was able to make Enclave. Compare it with games that came out the same year. WC3 ROC, GTA Vice City, Morrowind, and so on. Obviously WC3, GTA, and TES are much more well-known, much more succesful, and overall better games. No doubt. But if you compare WHO made it, and compare budgets, and so on, you will understand what I mean. Although Enclave was not able offer as much in terms of gameplay, it looked just like any other game made by a great, established studio. And the engine for that game if I remember it correctly was made by one person. And Enclave isn't even the best example. What about Mafia?

Ehem. Can a single person make a new engine for a game nowadays? Can a team of, let's say, 100 people make a game that at least looks like BG3 nowadays? Sure, artstyle is important, gameplay is even more important, but graphics are also important.
It depends on the player base. For me, gameplay is always the number one thing. I won't buy something terrible to play, even if it had the best graphics out of any game. However, I will play a game with shitty 8-bit graphics if it's fun.
 

SailusGebel

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To be honest, it doesn't really matter.
If the people at the top lose money, then hopefully the current indie developers will get big enough to make the AAA games of the future.

Valve, and a few other Indies are not publicly traded so they have a chance to keep growing. A company like CD Projekt Red started out with the Witcher 1 which was very... rough... but eventually grew big enough to be a AAA player.
I disagree, you don't need 9,000 people to make a AAA game. Honestly, I don't even think the "it's too expensive" argument even works since while technology is higher, the tools to develop those games are also "MUCH BETTER."

I feel this is CEO and INVESTOR talk to try and make GAMERS have lower expectations or accept their version of reality.
You've got single person developers now making games that are better than the PS2 Era as Indie developers. So to me it's a load of crap.
I've been hearing this fairy tale, about how indie dvelopers will be able to make better games since they have better tools, for at least ten years now. Haven't seen a single game that is even remotely close to AAA. BG3 is not AAA. In terms of actual fun and gameplay it might as well be AAAAAAA, I don't know, didn't play it. But animations and graphics are not AAA level, it's AA.
 

Anon2024

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I've been hearing this fairy tale, about how indie dvelopers will be able to make better games since they have better tools, for at least ten years now. Haven't seen a single game that is even remotely close to AAA. BG3 is not AAA. In terms of actual fun and gameplay it might as well be AAAAAAA, I don't know, didn't play it. But animations and graphics are not AAA level, it's AA.
I can tell you BG3 is definitely AAA. Graphics, production, and multiple other things it's higher than any of the AAA developers have made recently except the updated Cyberpunk 2077. Even if the budget wasn't as high, but being a small private company, they didn't need to hire all the bloat for DEI and ESG.

Still, I didn't say it's about Indie Developers making better games.
I said it was the current Indie Developers becoming big and not allowing shareholders and investors in.
Larian now is getting much larger after BG3.
I'm saying there are new developers that are coming in every year now that are threatening the top.

Hence why the people at the top are like "it's unsustainable."
They've seen the writing on the wall and now are looking for excuses for their bad track record.
That's corpo speak.

Helldivers 2 is basically AA in terms of budget to make so it's an AA game, but you can bet they'll be allowed to work with a much larger budget later.
 

SailusGebel

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It depends on the player base. For me, gameplay is always the number one thing. I won't buy something terrible to play, even if it had the best graphics out of any game. However, I will play a game with shitty 8-bit graphics if it's fun.
The point is Enclave was still fun. Not as good as other games, but fun. However Mafia was great. Maybe gameplay was once again so-so, but it had an incredible story. And what about Gothic 2 that came out that year? Finally I can say that this game, Gothic 2, fucking slaps. It's not worse than Morrowind, GTA, or WC3. Gothic 2 is a goated game. Yet the team consisted of ten or so people, and before Gothic 2 they made Gothic 1. They made Gothic one, and they had one year to develop Gothic 2. Compare it with Blizzard, Rockstar, or Bethesda. Can something similar happen now?
 

Anon2024

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The point is Enclave was still fun. Not as good as other games, but fun. However Mafia was great. Maybe gameplay was once again so-so, but it had an incredible story. And what about Gothic 2 that came out that year? Finally I can say that this game, Gothic 2, fucking slaps. It's not worse than Morrowind, GTA, or WC3. Gothic 2 is a goated game. Yet the team consisted of ten or so people, and before Gothic 2 they made Gothic 1. They made Gothic one, and they had one year to develop Gothic 2. Compare it with Blizzard, Rockstar, or Bethesda. Can something similar happen now?
Gothic sucks ... ... ...
 

RepresentingEnvy

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The point is Enclave was still fun. Not as good as other games, but fun. However Mafia was great. Maybe gameplay was once again so-so, but it had an incredible story. And what about Gothic 2 that came out that year? Finally I can say that this game, Gothic 2, fucking slaps. It's not worse than Morrowind, GTA, or WC3. Gothic 2 is a goated game. Yet the team consisted of ten or so people, and before Gothic 2 they made Gothic 1. They made Gothic one, and they had one year to develop Gothic 2. Compare it with Blizzard, Rockstar, or Bethesda. Can something similar happen now?
Maybe? I have no idea. I am sure it could, but it would be a lot of work for ten people to do. And they probably wouldn't make their own engine as it is much easier to just use UE5 or some other open source.
 

Anon2024

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It is not.
Can you make examples of why it's not?
If you compare graphic fidelity with any AAA game on the market, it's just as good if not better.
Has way more content than any COD game.
Has replayability and QI is top notch.

You know something though.
AA vs AAA is not really well defined. So I guess you can say I don't know what you mean by AAA games.


You're right, by definition it is not. Even if it's quality is higher.
 

SailusGebel

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Maybe? I have no idea. I am sure it could, but it would be a lot of work for ten people to do. And they probably wouldn't make their own engine as it is much easier to just use UE5 or some other open source.
It can't happen now. Let's not pretend. You can't make a shooter that will be able to compete with CoD or BF on all aspects of the game with ten people. You could do it before, now you can't. You will have to compromise one thing or another. While before we could have EVEYRTHING, graphics, gameplay, story, animations, music, everything from a small team. Now a small team has to compromise.
 
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