Game Industry Observations

[RepresentingEnvy]

You, or someone else prior, also mentioned large groups working on a project together versus a single person alone on a project, which is where I came in with the Kenshi vs. Runescape. So yes, ironic indeed.

Sailus said that a single person can't make an all-inclusive package, and then you argued about Kenshi vs Runescape. Both of which don't have great graphics anyway, so the point was moot.

 

[ZukoMee]

Sailus said that a single person can't make an all-inclusive package, and then you argued about Kenshi vs Runescape. Both of which don't have great graphics anyway, so the point was moot.

You're still here? What about the camera emoji? The camera man/woman/thing doesn't speak I thought? They don't interact. They just observe and film.

 

[SailusGebel]

You, or someone else prior, also mentioned large groups working on a project together versus a single person alone on a project, which is where I came in with the Kenshi vs. Runescape. So yes, ironic indeed.

It can't happen now. Let's not pretend. You can't make a shooter that will be able to compete with CoD or BF on all aspects of the game with ten people. You could do it before, now you can't. You will have to compromise one thing or another. While before we could have EVEYRTHING, graphics, gameplay, story, animations, music, everything from a small team. Now a small team has to compromise.

Runescape is basically CoD or BF of MMOs, right.

 

[ZukoMee]

Runescape if basically CoD or BF of MMOs, right.

I haven't played Call of Duty or Battlefield since PS2 and barely remember it, so I'll have to take your word for it.

 

[SailusGebel]

I haven't played Call of Duty or Battlefield since PS2, so I'll have to take your word for it.

Why did you even reply then? I quoted my reply, that kickstarted the conversation. It was not me, you replied to my message that mentions CoD and BF. You don't know the context of this conversation, you don't know about CoD or BF, and basically ignored my whole point. What is the reason for doing that?

 

[ZukoMee]

Why did you even reply then? I quoted my reply, that kickstarted the conversation. It was not me, you replied to my message that mentions CoD and BF. You don't know the context of this conversation, you don't know about CoD or BF, and basically ignored my whole point. What is the reason for doing that?

Apparently I misunderstood the initial purpose of the conversation. I thought the first point of the conversation from the very first post and beginnings of the topic, not just your post specifically but rather the topic as a whole, was about small teams versus large teams in game development from a resource standpoint and finished product output. I thought you just used AAA games and non AAA games as your own personal example. If it wasn't, then I misread and I apologize for this.

 

[Anon2024]

Apparently I misunderstood the initial purpose of the conversation. I thought the first point of the conversation from the very first post and beginnings of the topic, not just your post specifically but rather the topic as a whole, was about small teams versus large teams in game development from a resource standpoint and finished product output. I thought you just used AAA games and non AAA games as your own personal example. If it wasn't, then I misread and I apologize for this.

Naw, the small vs large teams was just a generalization where large companies are complaining about whether the industry is sustainable and saying how it costs too much to make games.

The idea is that small teams in general cost less than large teams. Having 9,000 people work on something? lol?

But by definition AAA vs AA are defined by budget, not the team size. However, there is a correlation between huge budgets and huge teams

There are AA games that have higher quality than AAA games.

A single person would constitute less than a AA game, like stardew valley.

Sailus was saying no one spent a ton of money on games like BG3 which is technically correct.

 

[Blitz]

Basically Japan has strong employee protection laws so you can’t really go about performing mass layoffs.

The triple A games market is heading towards a major crash. As more and more resources are put in, the returns for companies are becoming more less. Multimillion dollars spent and large periods of time is taken to produce new games. To satisfy investor demands for growth companies have been having mass layoffs.

this is further excarbated since during Covid, tech companies mass hired folks to try and meet the increased demand and market from people staying at home more. Now that’s not sustainable anymore

other than that it’s basically poor management and bad decision making. Ceo’s massively bloated salaries, poor marketing decision etc

2023 was actually a pretty good year for more independent studios, indies. Double A games tho

 

[ZukoMee]

Naw, the small vs large teams was just a generalization where large companies are complaining about whether the industry is sustainable and saying how it costs too much to make games.

The idea is that small teams in general cost less than large teams. Having 9,000 people work on something? lol?

But by definition AAA vs AA are defined by budget, not the team size. However, there is a correlation between huge budgets and huge teams

There are AA games that have higher quality than AAA games.

A single person would constitute less than a AA game, like stardew valley.

Sailus was saying no one spent a ton of money on games like BG3 which is technically correct.

I came at this from the incorrect angle. Made something out of nothing. My mistake.

 

[SailusGebel]

Apparently I misunderstood the initial purpose of the conversation. I thought the first point of the conversation from the very first post and beginnings of the topic, not just your post specifically but rather the topic as a whole, was about small teams versus large teams in game development from a resource standpoint and finished product output. If it wasn't, then I misread and I apologize for this.

I was comparing small teams vs big teams. However, I was talking strictly about AAA games. I was talking about how small or even medium team can't make an AAA games nowadays, while before it was possible. I also acknowledge the fact that gameplay of vast majority of modern AAA games sucks ass. I was not talking about gameplay alone.

I will use Kenshi as an example. Let's pretend that technologies developed, but it is still incredibly easy to make a game, just like before. If today was just like twenty two years ago, you would've gotten the same game, Kenshi, developed by one man. However, there would've been a few tweaks. First, graphics would've been at the level of Cyberpunk, second there would've been a lot more animations, more music(of the same style), better optimisation, and importantly the same amount of bugs. Would you prefer to play that version of Kenshi? Or the old one? When I talk about graphics, I don't mean that the art style would change. I talk only about quality.

Anyway, nowadays it's not possible. Sure a small team can make a game that is better than a game made by a bigger team. A small team can make a game with a gameplay that is vastly better than any AAA game. However, to do that, they would have to sacrifice other aspects of the game that elevate games to AAA status. Usually graphics.

Lastly, if you take a look, most indie hit games, even kenshi, are all from the same small pool of genres. You rarely will find, for example, an indie strategy game, much less an indie strategy game that is at the level of an AAA game. In fact, there isn't even any AAA strategy game. The only series that comes even close to the status of AAA is Total War series. So compare an indie strategy Song of Conquest, and Total War Three Kingdoms.

 

[Anon2024]

Basically Japan has strong employee protection laws so you can’t really go about performing mass layoffs.

The triple A games market is heading towards a major crash. As more and more resources are put in, the returns for companies are becoming more less. Multimillion dollars spent and large periods of time is taken to produce new games.

Employee protection is a double edged sword. The more employee protection, the more research companies will do into someone before giving them a chance. Explains the comprehensive interview process in Japan.

makes sense actually thanks, something I didn’t know.

Well… more bloat = more costs that are for nothing.

I came at this from the incorrect angle. Made something out of nothing. My mistake.

No worries.
Also, Sailus is being a little nonsensical too.

 

[ZukoMee]

To satisfy investor demands for growth

This. I'm not entirely sure if this applies the same across all corporate sectors....but why is it that so many corporations insist on a infinite growth curve? I don't understand. What happened to just getting a loyal customer base, making a healthy profit and continuing to coast off of that? Whose bright idea was it to hunt for infinite growth....and why has nearly every notable name in business begun doing the same?

Infinite growth is not only unsustainable, its impossible. Why don't investors realize this?

Total War Three Kingdoms.

I'm a bit sore about this one. This was the final Total War I bought and I no longer buy Total War. The last good genuine Total War experience to me was Shogun 2. I couldn't get into Rome 2 either. I was also annoyed at the way they sold factions in such small packages with little other content available. I don't remember this being done before in prior game installments. I admit I had a soft spot for Thrones of Britannia and really enjoyed that one mostly because I loved to play the Welsh factions and roleplay a Celtic reconquest of the motherland, but I saw that one as more of a DLC than an actual standalone title. Medieval 2 is still the greatest to me.

 

[Anon2024]

Infinite growth is not only unsustainable, it’s impossible. Why don't investors realize this?

Investors incentive is to get a return, that is how they profit.

The cost of stock is based on how much someone is willing to pay, investors buy from each other, so if investors only value the stock price, , and that is tied to “profit growth” over everything else. they want growth so they can profit.

Everyone else be damned.

 

[SailusGebel]

I'm a bit sore about this one. This was the final Total War I bought and I no longer buy Total War. The last good genuine Total War experience to me was Shogun 2. I admit I had a soft spot for Thrones of Britannia and really enjoyed that one, but I saw that one as more of a DLC than an actual standalone title. Medieval 2 is still the greatest to me.

I liked TW WH 1 and 2. I think it is different from Shogun and Medieval 2, but still great games. Didn't play WH3, and three kingdoms.

 

[ZukoMee]

I think it is different from Shogun and Medieval 2

Fantasy versus non fantasy. Ouch. The units don't function the same way, battles are more fast paced and end quicker giving you less time to set up in-match maneuvers. The unit strengths and weaknesses are also MUCH, MUCH more varied in Warhammer 1 than in standard Total War games. Some of it also ties into lore stuff, which isn't immediately noticed for those who don't read the books, which I do. I played Warhammer 1, and while good, not my cup of tea.

I made the mistake of bringing a regular Total War game mindset to a Warhammer-type Total War game. It was a mistake and I paid for it.

Played one match where my opponent brought what was basically in normal Total War's, a standard "Rush Army", meaning they had a strong frontline infantry component but a weak mobile(cavalry etc.) component which means their strategy was to go on the offensive with their elite infantry and force a confrontation before I could respond. This kind of strategy usually involves charging almost immediately and can be effective in certain types of map terrains. Well, I was ready to kill that shit with an ambush. Then a dragon, basically the equivalent of a frigging mini-boss, swoops down and kills almost three entire infantry units and mauls around 1/3 of a weak disposable cavalry unit that I was keeping in reserve. Now I had nothing able to respond with nearby costing me the entire match because I foolishly based a good chunk of my strategy on an ambush that never panned out since the dragon sighted and then killed my hidden units.....

I love the books. I love 40k books too. But I just didn't have the right mindset for Total War Warhammer

 

[Anon2024]

I’m the opposite, I think I only got into Total Warhammer and nothing else. I haven’t bought 3 yet though, since I only play games when they are done releasing all DLC

 

[SailusGebel]

Fantasy versus non fantasy. Ouch. The units don't function the same way, battles are more fast paced and end quicker giving you less time to set up in-match maneuvers. The unit strengths and weaknesses are also MUCH, MUCH more varied in Warhammer 1 than in standard Total War games. Some of it also ties into lore stuff, which isn't immediately noticed for those who don't read the books, which I do. I played Warhammer 1, and while good, not my cup of tea.

I made the mistake of bringing a regular Total War game mindset to a Warhammer-type Total War game. It was a mistake and I paid for it.

Played one match where my opponent brought what was basically in normal Total War's, a standard "Rush Army", meaning they had a strong frontline infantry component but a weak mobile(cavalry etc.) component which means their strategy was to go on the offensive with their elite infantry and force a confrontation before I could respond. This kind of strategy usually involves charging almost immediately and can be effective in certain types of maps. Well, I was ready to kill that shit with an ambush. Then a dragon, basically the equivalent of a frigging mini-boss, swoops down and kills almost three entire infantry units and mauls around 1/3 of a weak disposable cavalry unit that I was keeping in reserve. Now I had nothing able to respond with nearby costing me the entire match because I foolishly based a good chunk of my strategy on an ambush that never panned out since the dragon sighted and then killed my hidden units.....

I love the books. I love 40k books too. But I just didn't have the right mindset for Total War Warhammer

You played multiplayer? I'm not a fan of multiplayer, so I was speaking about solo campaigns only. Solo campaigns since I don't have any friends that are into TW.

I’m the opposite, I think I only got into Total Warhammer and nothing else. I haven’t bought 3 yet though, since I only play games when they are done releasing all DLC

We can have a match in TW WH2?

 

[ZukoMee]

You played multiplayer? I'm not a fan of multiplayer, so I was speaking about solo campaigns only. Solo campaigns since I don't have any friends that are into TW.

Yeah. I actually won A LOT of multiplayer tournaments back when Medieval 2 was popular. I even beat PrinceofMacedon in 2 of them though he is a very sore loser and stopped competing not long afterwards. I beat HeirofCarthage in 1 of them but he doesn't join tournaments very often. I don't know if you know them, but PrinceofMacedon and HeirofCarthage were two of the biggest names in Total War multiplayer streaming years back. I don't know if they still do it anymore though. You can probably find their videos on Youtube still. I didn't keep up with them after I left the tournament scene. There was only 1 guy I just could never seem to beat. He was named after a Pokémon. Totadile I think. I never played in Shogun 2 tournaments though. Don't know why.

 

[SailusGebel]

Yeah. I actually won A LOT of multiplayer tournaments back when Medieval 2 was popular. I even beat PrinceofMacedon in 2 of them though he is a very sore loser and stopped competing not long afterwards. I beat HeirofCarthage in 1 of them but he doesn't join tournaments very often. I don't know if you know them, but PrinceofMacedon and HeirofCarthage were two of the biggest names in Total War multiplayer streaming years back. I don't know if they still do it anymore though. You can probably find their videos on Youtube still. I didn't keep up with them after I left the tournament scene. There was only 1 guy I just could never seem to beat. He was named after a Pokémon. Totadile I think. I never played in Shogun 2 tournaments though. Don't know why.

Wow. Heard their names, but didn't saw actual games. I think Heir is still active in WH, or at least was in WH2. Heir was(still is?) a top-tier player.

 

[ZukoMee]

Heir was(still is?) a top-tier player.

Yeah. He was a cool guy. He personally invited me to several Rome 2 tournaments but I just never could be bothered. Didn't like the game and you had to have the base game and all of the DLC factions to qualify for the tournaments and I refused to purchase all of that for a game I disliked. It was fun playing with him in Medieval 2 though. I hated it when he played the Russia faction. He hated it when I played the Venice faction. Good times.

I don't believe he played Shogun 2 much.