Highest state of fire?

[NotaNuffian]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire

Brainfart as I shit out black ichor, what is fire?

To put in layman terms, something (the fuel) that got intro-ed with the oxygen and heat, which results in the something to break down into its oxide state, as well as releasing heat and light in the process.

But in magicland term, fire is hot and it burns. In xianxia terms, fire is used for forging, pill making and lighting enemies like birthday candles. In the former's term, the way of making a better fire, ie burning hotter, is to pump in more fuel or learning a more powerful magic. In the latter, fire got ranks; mortal, spirit, earthly and heavenly fires. And fire has elements, like ice fire, dark fire, fire fire, hellfire, etc.

But what is fire and how does it grow? For both examples, fire grows when their core temperature continues to increase to ludicrous levels like 50,000 c (90,000 f), hotter than the lightning. Or in some cases, just straight up upgrade fire into lightning or light. This is only my vague understanding talking and why is it vague has to stem from my thinkings from the basic element theories below.

The core four elements is always iffy to me (with the fifth element being cosmic ray) and the chinese five element is even worse (air or wind is put with wood cuz "wind is present as wood moves"...). While it is somewhat good by cross referrencing the two templates, with fire being its own group (plasma), water as liquid, earth as solid, air is gas, wood being life or nature and metal being buggerall. So by combining them together, I can come into the conclusion that I have no proper understanding of how shit works.

With aero-, hydro- and terra-kinesis, a level up would entail larger quantities of the element manipulated and/ or finer controls, it should be the same with manipulating plasma, but how is temperature controllable other than by energy manipulation?

 

[Deleted member 54065]

By combining them together, I can come into the conclusion that I have no proper understanding of how shit works.

Yep. Definitely my sentence of the day.

 

[DarkGodEM]

Technically the fucking hottest shit ever is a laser

Lasers are so hot they sometimes have temperatures in the Negative Kelvin range. (Not joking)

 

[CupcakeNinja]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire

Brainfart as I shit out black ichor, what is fire?

To put in layman terms, something (the fuel) that got intro-ed with the oxygen and heat, which results in the something to break down into its oxide state, as well as releasing heat and light in the process.

But in magicland term, fire is hot and it burns. In xianxia terms, fire is used for forging, pill making and lighting enemies like birthday candles. In the former's term, the way of making a better fire, ie burning hotter, is to pump in more fuel or learning a more powerful magic. In the latter, fire got ranks; mortal, spirit, earthly and heavenly fires. And fire has elements, like ice fire, dark fire, fire fire, hellfire, etc.

But what is fire and how does it grow? For both examples, fire grows when their core temperature continues to increase to ludicrous levels like 50,000 c (90,000 f), hotter than the lightning. Or in some cases, just straight up upgrade fire into lightning or light. This is only my vague understanding talking and why is it vague has to stem from my thinkings from the basic element theories below.

The core four elements is always iffy to me (with the fifth element being cosmic ray) and the chinese five element is even worse (air or wind is put with wood cuz "wind is present as wood moves"...). While it is somewhat good by cross referrencing the two templates, with fire being its own group (plasma), water as liquid, earth as solid, air is gas, wood being life or nature and metal being buggerall. So by combining them together, I can come into the conclusion that I have no proper understanding of how shit works.

With aero-, hydro- and terra-kinesis, a level up would entail larger quantities of the element manipulated and/ or finer controls, it should be the same with manipulating plasma, but how is temperature controllable other than by energy manipulation?

all of them are in essense energy manipulation. At the highest levels of control, you start manipulating atoms and such. Which is energy manipulation in itself would come from. When you control fire, you are actually speeding up atoms to create heat, and thus fire.

I think that's why fire bending "skips" the need for a fuel source. Because "fire" is just the release of molecules. And things like wood, for example, is just the fuel. When they heat up enough, the molecules release. But if you already can directly control the molecuse that exist all around you, then there's no need for any physical source for fuel. You can release the molecules on your own.

The molecules that make up certain objects also determine the heat of the fire. Thats why some things burn hotter than others and require more heat, or energy, to create a fire. So again, once molecules can be directly controlled, you can also control how hot the fire is just by determining which molecules are releasing energy

Technically the fucking hottest shit ever is a laser

Lasers are so hot they sometimes have temperatures in the Negative Kelvin range. (Not joking)

now dont quote me on this since my science class was fucking years ago but I'm pretty sure laser beams themselves don't even have a temperature. The just transfer energy to whatever material its pointing at. Lasers are just photons, remembers. Which means, like i said, it just transfers their energy to other materials and if the energy of the laser is high enough and continues long enough, the material its pointing at will heat up.

 

[CubicleHermit]

now dont quote me on this since my science class was fucking years ago but I'm pretty sure laser beams themselves don't even have a temperature. The just transfer energy to whatever material its pointing at. Lasers are just photons, remembers. Which means, like i said, it just transfers their energy to other materials and if the energy of the laser is high enough and continues long enough, the material its pointing at will heat up.

That matches my understanding of it. It can just transfer a _lot_ of energy to a very small area because it doesn't spread out via the inverse square rule. Although once you have magic, it doesn't have to follow real-world rules anymore, and even in nominally SF works a lot of "beam weapons" act more like physical objects than photos moving at the speed of light.

There's some really cool science around lasers and fusion these days, like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ignition_Facility that I wish I had time to follow more closely.

 

[NotaNuffian]

Technically the fucking hottest shit ever is a laser

Lasers are so hot they sometimes have temperatures in the Negative Kelvin range. (Not joking)

I think you are referring to plasma, not laser.

Also, you troll. Kelvin's lowest is zero, Absolute Zero, as in even the atoms stop vibrating cold.

all of them are in essense energy manipulation. At the highest levels of control, you start manipulating atoms and such. Which is energy manipulation in itself would come from. When you control fire, you are actually speeding up atoms to create heat, and thus fire.

So the highest state of power is manipulating the laws of physics? Like for liquid and gas movers by dealing with the van der waals forces while in solid even the intermolecular bonds?

I asked because I always find fire users are limited, like burn and burn and burn.

 

[Kenjona]

I think you are referring to plasma, not laser.

Also, you troll. Kelvin's lowest is zero, Absolute Zero, as in even the atoms stop vibrating cold.

So the highest state of power is manipulating the laws of physics? Like for liquid and gas movers by dealing with the van der waals forces while in solid even the intermolecular bonds?

I asked because I always find fire users are limited, like burn and burn and burn.

No he is using a scientific Quibble. There are systems that can achieve negative thermodynamic temperature; that is, their temperature can be expressed as a negative on the Kelvin or Rankine scales. But they are moving away from strictly measuring thermodynamics and into kinetic states. The absolute temperature (Kelvin) scale can be understood loosely as a measure of average kinetic energy as such system temperatures are normally positive. However, in particular isolated systems, the temperature defined in terms of Boltzmann's entropy can become negative. Yeah its more complicated than that, but that's because the egg heads have not further defined it and many have not used a different measurement for it. Measurement definitions change as science progresses and breaks those measurements criteria.

 

[NotaNuffian]

No he is using a scientific Quibble. There are systems that can achieve negative thermodynamic temperature; that is, their temperature can be expressed as a negative on the Kelvin or Rankine scales. But they are moving away from strictly measuring thermodynamics and into kinetic states. The absolute temperature (Kelvin) scale can be understood loosely as a measure of average kinetic energy as such system temperatures are normally positive. However, in particular isolated systems, the temperature defined in terms of Boltzmann's entropy can become negative. Yeah its more complicated than that, but that's because the egg heads have not further defined it and many have not used a different measurement for it. Measurement definitions change as science progresses and breaks those measurements criteria.

A temperature below absolute zero: Atoms at negative absolute temperature are the hottest systems in the world

On the absolute temperature scale, which is used by physicists and is also called the Kelvin scale, it is not possible to go below zero – at least not in the sense of getting colder than zero kelvin. According to the physical meaning of temperature, the temperature of a gas is determined by the...

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[Ekeriel]

I always thought about the four element systems as affecting particular interactions and concepts that exist on a fundamental level in the real world. I would equate geokenesis to gravitational manipulation, pyrokenesis to electromagnetic manipulation, aquakenesis would be controlling polar interactions on an intermolecular scale and aerokenesis would be higgs-field manipulation. As you can see. if we imagine these magic powers to be based on these fundamental forces then traditionally opposing elementals are simply different level of manipulation, which I consider quite poetic in the least. Using this line of reasoning, I would say that the scope of the highest level of fire wouldn't be limited to extremely hot flames. Instead you can even create black holes through extremely controlled "flames" (I think its called a kugelblitz, heard about it in a vsauce video once), or create matter. I think fire is severely underappreciated in fantasy, heck I think elemental magical powers in general are underappreciated since its easier to create conflict if the very magic system that is a part of the fabric of society is inherently conflicted. "character 1 controls fire and character 2 controls water, hence they must be bitter enemies." Although one-dimensional, this treatment of elemental system makes things easier for authors. They don't have scratch their heads too much to come with conflicts. The most nuanced and organic handling of such a simplistic power system, such as the elemental system, that I have seen was in Avatar: The Last Air bender. This is also why the show is considered a master-piece. It takes a simple premise along with a simple system and manages to do so much with it. Anyways, kinda got sidetracked there. TLDR; My understanding; four elements = four different types of manipulation. Fire = Water but at a higher level, Wind = Earth but at a higher level. Allows for more organic writing.

 

[TotallyHuman]

That's why I always put a disclaimer in my stories that the world has different laws of physics and metaphysics and stuff. Who cares if our world has things like atoms and subatomic particles and the shit we have can be defined through them? Instead, I go from the top and build down. So, the purest form of fire can be fire in and of itself, while everything else is but an expression of fire. There was a Ancient Greek philosopher who actually build a world model that stated that everything is fire. He is the author of the saying "you can't go into the same river twice". I forgot his name but it starts with H

 

[FindingClock4]

Gonna throw my two cents in. Fire (in the simplest sense) is an energy release caused by an exothermic chemical reaction.
Most, if not all 'fire' is in the form of plasma. So, if you want the largest or most pure form of fire, then just dump energy into a plasma (probably with only subatomic particles, depending on energy).
In essence, the highest form of fire is the hottest or most energetic plasma.
Thus, the point of existence that led to The Big Bang could be argued as the highest form of fire as it is a ball of energy at the temperature of infinity at infinite density.
But my definition is strictly from an empirical standpoint. Because as soon as any magic/qi/fantasy gets involved, anything empirical might as well be a suggestion from the author's point of view.

 

[LesserSarcasm]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire

Brainfart as I shit out black ichor, what is fire?

To put in layman terms, something (the fuel) that got intro-ed with the oxygen and heat, which results in the something to break down into its oxide state, as well as releasing heat and light in the process.

But in magicland term, fire is hot and it burns. In xianxia terms, fire is used for forging, pill making and lighting enemies like birthday candles. In the former's term, the way of making a better fire, ie burning hotter, is to pump in more fuel or learning a more powerful magic. In the latter, fire got ranks; mortal, spirit, earthly and heavenly fires. And fire has elements, like ice fire, dark fire, fire fire, hellfire, etc.

But what is fire and how does it grow? For both examples, fire grows when their core temperature continues to increase to ludicrous levels like 50,000 c (90,000 f), hotter than the lightning. Or in some cases, just straight up upgrade fire into lightning or light. This is only my vague understanding talking and why is it vague has to stem from my thinkings from the basic element theories below.

The core four elements is always iffy to me (with the fifth element being cosmic ray) and the chinese five element is even worse (air or wind is put with wood cuz "wind is present as wood moves"...). While it is somewhat good by cross referrencing the two templates, with fire being its own group (plasma), water as liquid, earth as solid, air is gas, wood being life or nature and metal being buggerall. So by combining them together, I can come into the conclusion that I have no proper understanding of how shit works.

With aero-, hydro- and terra-kinesis, a level up would entail larger quantities of the element manipulated and/ or finer controls, it should be the same with manipulating plasma, but how is temperature controllable other than by energy manipulation?

Fire is the rapid oxidation of a material (the fuel) in the exothermic chemical process of combustion, releasing heat, light, and various reaction products.

Temperature it self is just a measure of an atoms activity. with 0 kelvin being no activity while X Kelvin how active that atom is.

Modern states of matter are acutally quite extensive, beyond the 3 we were told

• Solid: A solid holds a definite shape and volumewithout a container. The particles are held very close to each other.
  • Amorphous solid: A solid in which there is no far-range order of the positions of the atoms.
  • Crystalline solid: A solid in which atoms, molecules, or ions are packed in regular order.
  • Plastic crystal: A molecular solid with long-range positional order but with constituent molecules retaining rotational freedom.
  • Quasi-crystal: A solid in which the positions of the atoms have long-range order, but this is not in a repeating pattern.
• Liquid: A mostly non-compressible fluid. Able to conform to the shape of its container but retains a (nearly) constant volume independent of pressure.
  • Liquid crystal: Properties intermediate between liquids and crystals. Generally, able to flow like a liquid but exhibiting long-range order.
• Gas: A compressible fluid. Not only will a gas take the shape of its container but it will also expand to fill the container.
• Plasma: Free charged particles, usually in equal numbers, such as ions and electrons. Unlike gases, plasma may self-generate magnetic fields and electric currents, and respond strongly and collectively to electromagnetic forces. Plasma is very uncommon on Earth (except for the ionosphere), although it is the most common state of matter in the universe.[1]

Modern states[edit]​

• Supercritical fluid: At sufficiently high temperatures and pressures, the distinction between liquid and gas disappears.
• Degenerate matter: matter under very high pressure, supported by the Pauli exclusion principle.
  • Electron-degenerate matter: found inside white dwarf stars. Electrons remain bound to atoms but are able to transfer to adjacent atoms.
  • Neutron-degenerate matter: found in neutron stars. Vast gravitational pressure compresses atoms so strongly that the electrons are forced to combine with protons via inverse beta-decay, resulting in a super dense conglomeration of neutrons. (Normally free neutrons outside an atomic nucleus will decay with a half-life of just under fifteen minutes, but in a neutron star, as in the nucleus of an atom, other effects stabilize the neutrons.)
  • Strange matter: A type of quark matter that may exist inside some neutron stars close to the Tolman–Oppenheimer–Volkoff limit (approximately 2–3 solar masses). May be stable at lower energy states once formed.
  • Quantum spin Hall state: a theoretical phase that may pave the way for the development of electronic devices that dissipate less energy and generate less heat. This is a derivation of the quantum Hall state of matter.
• Bose–Einstein condensate: a phase in which a large number of bosons all inhabit the same quantum state, in effect becoming one single wave/particle. This is a low-energy phase that can only be formed in laboratory conditions and very cold temperatures. It must be close to zero kelvin, or absolute zero. Satyendra Nath Bose and Albert Einstein predicted the existence of such a state in the 1920s, but it was not observed until 1995 by Eric Cornell and Carl Wieman.
• Fermionic condensate: Similar to the Bose-Einstein condensate but composed of fermions, also known as Fermi-Dirac condensate. The Pauli exclusion principle prevents fermions from entering the same quantum state, but a pair of fermions can behave like a boson, and multiple such pairs can then enter the same quantum state without restriction.
• Superconductivity: is a phenomenon of exactly zero electrical resistance and expulsion of magnetic fields occurring in certain materials when cooled below a characteristic critical temperature. Superconductivity is the ground state of many elemental metals.
• Superfluid: A phase achieved by a few cryogenic liquids at extreme temperature at which they become able to flow without friction. A superfluid can flow up the side of an open container and down the outside. Placing a superfluid in a spinning container will result in quantized vortices.
• Supersolid: similar to a superfluid, a supersolid can move without friction but retains a rigid shape.
• Quantum spin liquid: A disordered state in a system of interacting quantum spins which preserves its disorder to very low temperatures, unlike other disordered states.
• String-net liquid: Atoms in this state have apparently unstable arrangements, like a liquid, but are still consistent in the overall pattern, like a solid.
• Time crystals: A state of matter where an object can have movement even at its lowest energy state.
• Rydberg polaron: A state of matter that can only exist at ultra-low temperatures and consists of atoms inside of atoms.
• Black superionic ice: A state of matter that can exist under very high pressure while excited by super lasers.

 

[DarkGodEM]

now dont quote me on this since my science class was fucking years ago but I'm pretty sure laser beams themselves don't even have a temperature. The just transfer energy to whatever material its pointing at. Lasers are just photons, remembers. Which means, like i said, it just transfers their energy to other materials and if the energy of the laser is high enough and continues long enough, the material its pointing at will heat up.

A temperature of a laser BEAM is defined by the concentration of energy in the particles that integrate said beam.
Temperature is just a measure of energy. Photons have energy.

 

[CupcakeNinja]

A temperature of a laser BEAM is defined by the concentration of energy in the particles that integrate said beam.
Temperature is just a measure of energy. Photons have energy.

temperature is the measure of energy, but a specific kind of energy. Thermal energy. Photons, therefore, don't really have a their own temperature. But as they carry energy, they contribute to the temperature of other objects. A laser beam wont give off any heat, but if the beam hits something for long enough and its got sufficient energy, that object is gonna get hot.

 

[Kenjona]

A temperature below absolute zero: Atoms at negative absolute temperature are the hottest systems in the world

On the absolute temperature scale, which is used by physicists and is also called the Kelvin scale, it is not possible to go below zero – at least not in the sense of getting colder than zero kelvin. According to the physical meaning of temperature, the temperature of a gas is determined by the...

www.sciencedaily.com

Like I said he is using a quibble. Using a measurement for systems in isolation and circumstances that can register negative on the Kelvin scale. It is like measuring the depth of water in pounds per square inch (or Pascal for metric users), you CAN but its not the correct measurement units for depth. Oh, and let me add, Pascal and PSI are sometimes used for depth measurements, but the units you see are converted from Pascal/PSI to the correct measurement units for depth.

 

[NotaNuffian]

A temperature of a laser BEAM is defined by the concentration of energy in the particles that integrate said beam.
Temperature is just a measure of energy. Photons have energy.

temperature is the measure of energy, but a specific kind of energy. Thermal energy. Photons, therefore, don't really have a their own temperature. But as they carry energy, they contribute to the temperature of other objects. A laser beam wont give off any heat, but if the beam hits something for long enough and its got sufficient energy, that object is gonna get hot.

So what I get from this convo: laser imparts energy. In the case of a laser pointer, it imparts energy on solid surface, where the photons hit and converts to seeable light.

In a weird japanese detective live action drama (I forgot the name, I think it had the smart jap professor playing a consultant for the police to be named as Galileo), in the first case, some production worker use a carbon gas laser to burn the hair of a delinquent to kill him. Iirc the energy imparted can cause burn marks on stone, so it is strong.

Ps. That drama's name is Galileo.

Like I said he is using a quibble. Using a measurement for systems in isolation and circumstances that can register negative on the Kelvin scale. It is like measuring the depth of water in pounds per square inch (or Pascal for metric users), you CAN but its not the correct measurement units for depth. Oh, and let me add, Pascal and PSI are sometimes used for depth measurements, but the units you see are converted from Pascal/PSI to the correct measurement units for depth.

The only thing I use for pascal is whether the air unit provided by the customer can be used for the actuators and suction cups. I never know that you can use pressure for depth.

 

[CupcakeNinja]

The only thing I use for pascal is whether the air unit provided by the customer can be used for the actuators and suction cups. I never know that you can use pressure for depth.

Oh yeah, you can. For example, the deeper the earths oceans, the more pressure there is. All the weight of the water, you see. The same thing would happen if you go deep down somewhere on land, too. The air pressure would increase the deeper down you go. Tho, you don't really feel it cuz the fluid in your body presses out with the same force. The added weight of the water is why you feel it in the oceans, from what i understand?

So you can definitely use pressure to measure the depth of an area. Im not sure how often that's used, tho. It really seems a backwards way to do it.

 

[Echimera]

So what I get from this convo: laser imparts energy. In the case of a laser pointer, it imparts energy on solid surface, where the photons hit and converts to seeable light.

It's always visible light, but once it scatters on a surface it becomes visible outside the original beam.
If you use a laser pointer in a very dusty environment, you'll be able to see the beam itself due to the scattering on the dust that crosses the beam.

Industrial Lasers can do nasty things when used outside their intended purpose, given how they are designed to cut into solid steel and the likes.
Laser would be a better fit for high level light magic though, not fire magic.

 

[Kenjona]

The only thing I use for pascal is whether the air unit provided by the customer can be used for the actuators and suction cups. I never know that you can use pressure for depth.

It is taking knowns about how much pressure changes for a given depth of a liquid at sea level. A column of water 1 inch square by 2.31 feet high weighs 1 pound. Therefore, one pound of pressure per square inch (PSI) is equal to 2.31 feet of head. For Metric it is 1 Meter per 9.81 kPa (kiloPascals). So if a pool of water is 1.85 meters deep then it should be 9.81*1.85=18.1485 or about 18.15 kPa at the bottom of the pool.

 

[DarkGodEM]

temperature is the measure of energy, but a specific kind of energy. Thermal energy. Photons, therefore, don't really have a their own temperature. But as they carry energy, they contribute to the temperature of other objects. A laser beam wont give off any heat, but if the beam hits something for long enough and its got sufficient energy, that object is gonna get hot.

Actually, no. Temperature is a measure of the average energy of the particles of a substance, so technically, it's kinetic energy. Based off of the degrees of freedom of a given particle (gas) and using the lapeyron constant, you can calculate the temperature for a given kinetic energy