How essential are the tags?

ToastedStarfish_SweetFilledHoney

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What you listed, is how I would mainly break down the "Gender Bender" tags here on Scribble Hub and get rid of Gender Bender tag altogether. When the tag Gender Bender has to be added to a story just cause the "Female MC disguised as a Guy to get X Object from an male only locker room and then gets stuck having to go out with a group of males to play soccer to keep her disguise going" but it also includes the "Female MC who magically becomes a futanari and has great fun wherever she goes with whoever"; to me they are VERY different premises in a story and should have different tags. One might make an interesting story to me, the other is just a turn off to me, it all just depends on what flavor of story we like.
See, if things like this should be broken down to several different tags, what about other types of tags that are lumped together? I feel like some things are lumped together and then there are just some tags that are very specific.
 

Moonpearl

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I can see about 5 stories I am already reading on that list. Not necessarily on Scribble Hub as I started reading them elsewhere first.

It is all a personal outlook, I admit I have a semi vanilla outlook in the stories I like and prefer my MC's to be somewhat Vanilla types. Boring for many but its all a preference and it is just mine. MC or main love interest disguising/temporarily H Gender sure ok, I will read it. But MC's who are Futanari, Transgender or traps are not my cup of tea. But that is just what I like in my "flavor" of stories. Since so much gets lumped into gender bender I tend to avoid stories that have it tagged as such, since there are so many other stories out there. As such I am sure I may be missing stories I would actually read; let alone all the grammatically near prefect, well written, and engaging plot line stories I already miss out on because of my preferences.

What you listed, is how I would mainly break down the "Gender Bender" tags here on Scribble Hub and get rid of Gender Bender tag altogether. When the tag Gender Bender has to be added to a story just cause the "Female MC disguised as a Guy to get X Object from an male only locker room and then gets stuck having to go out with a group of males to play soccer to keep her disguise going" but it also includes the "Female MC who magically becomes a futanari and has great fun wherever she goes with whoever"; to me they are VERY different premises in a story and should have different tags. One might make an interesting story to me, the other is just a turn off to me, it all just depends on what flavor of story we like.
Gender Bender is a genre that existed long before Scribble Hub, and is broad by its nature, just as "fantasy" is.

All those tags associated with GB can also be used outside of the GB genre. The GB genre says something very specific about how the story is going to treat them.

Just because you dislike and avoid a genre, does mean that it should be torn apart for you.
It's up to you to overcome your own bias to find good stories. Most readers on this site like GB.
 
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Also... What is a "hard" magic system? How does one classify what is a hard and a soft system in the first place? This seems really vague and doesn't seem to be very useful as a tag.
And what makes a Fantasy "epic"? What about it is particularly different from other types of fantasy stories? It also seems really vague and not very useful.

Those are very specific things.

Hard Magic systems have definitive rules that the characters and the readers are aware of, that shape out the magic works. The Mistborn series is a great example of this, where each type of magic does something very specific, so if a character is a Lurcher or a Coinshot, you know exactly what they are capable of and the story often involves that magic being used in specific and creative ways.

Soft Magic systems have few (if any) hard and fast rules. Magic is often used more for Deus Ex Machina. This includes such series as Harry Potter, A Song of Ice and Fire (some of the magic anyway), and Lord of the Rings. While the characters may know how magic works, the limitations are rarely set in stone. Something that works in one book may not work in the next, depending on plot, etc etc.

Further Epic Fantasy, or High Fantasy, is also a well-defined genre, categorized by the epic nature of its setting or characters. Further, Dark Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, Low Fantasy, Historical Fantasy and others are not vague, they are well enough defined that you can walk into a bookstore (well, you could in the long long ago) and find books defined that way. These would be good tags if they are missing.
 

Reisinling

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I'd say that there is a fair number of very popular stories that don't fit into any of those genres.

I'm curious, what do you want to make gender bender less "lumped together"?

Here are a bunch of tags that can fit into the gender bender genre, to different extents of course:
  • Cross-dressing
  • Female to Male
  • Futanari
  • Male to Female
  • Protagonist with Multiple Bodies
  • Transgender
  • Trap
  • [A bunch of Reincarnation related tags]
  • [A bunch of Transported/Transmigration related tags]
... What else do you need to properly depict through tags what you want to show in a gender bender novel?

As for the dictionary, people already asked for it, but never got any answer... My guess is that Tony doesn't want to force authors to adhere to a specific definition to what a given tag/genre means, so he is leaving it vague on purpose... But that's just my guess.
I just clicked on the link you provided for the most popular series and man, I can't judge all of them, but at least the ones I've read that don't have the related tags... actually should have them. I mean look at blue core (the first one without those tags), it is a Harem, with girls love subplot, there are suggestions it will have pretend futanari soon, it's certainly reincarnation (yeah I know the current plot reveal, it's bullshit, it's reincarnation with late changes to make it seem less tropey).
 

AliceShiki

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Is that considered alright? It seems like that could get spammy.
It should be alright, the users should have some way of suggesting tags, and some user-suggested tags were already implemented, so... I don't think there will be any problem in asking for more.
Hard Magic systems have definitive rules that the characters and the readers are aware of, that shape out the magic works. The Mistborn series is a great example of this, where each type of magic does something very specific, so if a character is a Lurcher or a Coinshot, you know exactly what they are capable of and the story often involves that magic being used in specific and creative ways.

Soft Magic systems have few (if any) hard and fast rules. Magic is often used more for Deus Ex Machina. This includes such series as Harry Potter, A Song of Ice and Fire (some of the magic anyway), and Lord of the Rings. While the characters may know how magic works, the limitations are rarely set in stone. Something that works in one book may not work in the next, depending on plot, etc etc.
I don't think this is as clearly defined as you're trying to make it be, these definitions are very subjective.
Further Epic Fantasy, or High Fantasy, is also a well-defined genre, categorized by the epic nature of its setting or characters. Further, Dark Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, Low Fantasy, Historical Fantasy and others are not vague, they are well enough defined that you can walk into a bookstore (well, you could in the long long ago) and find books defined that way. These would be good tags if they are missing.
I've never really seen High Fantasy being seen as a synonym to Epic Fantasy pretty much anywhere, but uhn... A quick google search actually lists them as the same thing in Wikipedia, so... Well, maybe I'm in the wrong here.

Tbh, Low Fantasy and High Fantasy aren't really bad tags IMO, I could see them being added.
I just clicked on the link you provided for the most popular series and man, I can't judge all of them, but at least the ones I've read that don't have the related tags... actually should have them. I mean look at blue core (the first one without those tags), it is a Harem, with girls love subplot, there are suggestions it will have pretend futanari soon, it's certainly reincarnation (yeah I know the current plot reveal, it's bullshit, it's reincarnation with late changes to make it seem less tropey).
Can't say I have read any of them myself, so I can't comment on it. I just used the search function...
 
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It should be alright, the users should have some way of suggesting tags, and some user-suggested tags were already implemented, so... I don't think there will be any problem in asking for more.

I don't think this is as clearly defined as you're trying to make it be, these definitions are very subjective.

They are. Just google them. Hard vs Soft Magic systems brings up 84 million results. They are widely accepted terms used to subdivide magic in literature. And while, like Hard and Soft Sci-fi, there might have specific examples that are debated where they should fall, the existence of the distinction between the two subsets of magic is well known and well described.

And if you want to make a comparison, compared to 84 mil hits for those, Harem fiction only has 24 mil, and genderbender only brings up 7 mil. If tags existed purely from a position of utility, Hard and Soft magic would have far greater utility.

To be clear, I am not saying anything about GB and Harem tags, just pointing out that boy oh boy, is the concept of Hard and Soft magic a much larger element in fiction overall.

I've never really seen High Fantasy being seen as a synonym to Epic Fantasy pretty much anywhere, but uhn... A quick google search actually lists them as the same thing in Wikipedia, so... Well, maybe I'm in the wrong here.

Tbh, Low Fantasy and High Fantasy aren't really bad tags IMO, I could see them being added.

Can't say I have read any of them myself, so I can't comment on it. I just used the search function...

Yeah, they are extremely distinct subgenres.
 

AliceShiki

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They are. Just google them. Hard vs Soft Magic systems brings up 84 million results. They are widely accepted terms used to subdivide magic in literature. And while, like Hard and Soft Sci-fi, there might have specific examples that are debated where they should fall, the existence of the distinction between the two subsets of magic is well known and well described.

And if you want to make a comparison, compared to 84 mil hits for those, Harem fiction only has 24 mil, and genderbender only brings up 7 mil. If tags existed purely from a position of utility, Hard and Soft magic would have far greater utility.

To be clear, I am not saying anything about GB and Harem tags, just pointing out that boy oh boy, is the concept of Hard and Soft magic a much larger element in fiction overall.
... You do know these numbers are useless, right? This search will give you pretty much anything with the word Magic in it if you go far enough into the search pages...

Also, a quick search on it shows people trying to assign different books to different systems to explain their point, and also people discussing rather or not this definition even makes sense in the first place.

You can also see that the Hard VS Soft can be thought of not as something binary, but as a scale that shows how much flexibility in it.
... Not to mention that you can mix and match soft and hard systems in the same story to boot.

It is not something well-defined at all. It is pretty vague and that gets a lot of discussion over it.


That said, I do understand it can be useful and people have at least a vague idea of what it means if they ever looked around for it before. But it's definitely not a clear-cut set-in-stone definition. It's a vague way of saying that your story has or has not clear rules for your magic... Or that at least you can show some of those rules to your reader, depending on who you ask... >.>
 
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You can also see that the Hard VS Soft can be thought of not as something binary, but as a scale that shows how much flexibility in it.
... Not to mention that you can mix and match soft and hard systems in the same story to boot.

I never said you couldn't. Some of the magic systems in A Game of Thrones would roughly constitute as Hard and others Soft. That doesn't make the distinction any less defined.

It is not something well-defined at all. It is pretty vague and that gets a lot of discussion over it.

It absolutely is well defined. You even defined it yourself. The fact that you can find definitions for it that is consistent and widely used means it is well defined. Nerds argue on the internet, you know that right? You do know that people arguing over where a magic system sits on the scale is not the same thing as arguing whether the scale itself exists.

It's less vague than Genderbender, which by your own admission could encompass everything from reincarnation to traps to Futanari et al. By your previous description, I would say the Genderbender tag is useless without the follow-up tags. Meanwhile, a Hard Magic tag or a Soft Magic tag would immediately tell you something (there is magic and its rules are either fairly clearly delineated or they aren't).

That said, I do understand it can be useful and people have at least a vague idea of what it means if they ever looked around for it before. But it's definitely not a clear-cut set-in-stone definition. It's a vague way of saying that your story has or has not clear rules for your magic... Or that at least you can show some of those rules to your reader, depending on who you ask... >.>

It's not a vague way of saying it, it is literally the defined way of saying it. What the words Hard Magic System and Soft Magic System mean are clear-cut and set-in-stone.
 

ToastedStarfish_SweetFilledHoney

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Just FYI, I'm not against gender-bender or any of those other tags people keep mentioning. But I just wish tags weren't so limited on here. There are some specific themed, and then others are very broad concept.

Eventually, you will have people writing all kinds of different stories on here, not just those popular trending ones right now. And it would really suck if a lot of those existing tags right now don't exactly apply to them, which limits what they can tag, which contributes making it harder to find those unique stories on here.

It would be also nice to not have to make a feature request for every tag you couldn't find for your story. Like what I wanted to point out, and what someone also questioned, that can give way to lot of spamming requests for tags, even though some tags are very valid and solid to add.

Just wanted to point out though, it seems like the people who are okay with these limited tags is because their stories already have existing tags that are more specifically themed to their stories that they read or write, so of course, they're more likely to be satisfied. But, if you didn't had a lot of those tags to choose from for your story, then you might suggest otherwise. In this thread, you could already find couple tags that don't exist.
 

AliceShiki

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Just FYI, I'm not against gender-bender or any of those other tags people keep mentioning. But I just wish tags weren't so limited on here. There are some specific themed, and then others are very broad concept.

Eventually, you will have people writing all kinds of different stories on here, not just those popular trending ones right now. And it would really suck if a lot of those existing tags right now don't exactly apply to them, which limits what they can tag, which contributes making it harder to find those unique stories on here.

It would be also nice to not have to make a feature request for every tag you couldn't find for your story. Like what I wanted to point out, and what someone also questioned, that can give way to lot of spamming requests for tags, even though some tags are very valid and solid to add.

Just wanted to point out though, it seems like the people who are okay with these limited tags is because their stories already have existing tags that are more specifically themed to their stories that they read or write, so of course, they're more likely to be satisfied. But, if you didn't had a lot of those tags to choose from for your story, then you might suggest otherwise. In this thread, you could already find couple tags that don't exist.
Ah, to clarify my point of view (geez, we're in the 3rd page and I still didn't do that?), I'm generally against new tags being added unless they seem really meaningful, but not because my own stories have enough tags to fulfill all their points (my only story currently in the site has 5 tags for one), but because I think a high number of tags actually make things harder on users and on authors as well.

Like uhn... As we discussed the tags in this thread, I actually went through the entire tag list multiple times to see if I could find what would fit into the context of the discussion and stuff. I remembered some of them by head since 95% of those tags were inherited from NU and I went through NU tags dozens and dozens of times to help clean them up (there used to be 1200ish tags before btw, we reduced it to 700ish because there was a bunch of useless stuff).

And well, to put it simply... It's a big pain to go through the whole tag list, and it only becomes more and more of a pain as the number of tags grows bigger and bigger. And like... Even with the current number, there are already tags that get missed (like how Fairies and Werebeasts were missed by you (or was it someone else? I forgot) before), and there are also tags that the person ends up not associating with the thing they want (Like Modern Day for when you want Contemporary), which ends up making things even harder... And then there are redundant tags that exist for God knows what reason (Like Modern Day and Modern Times... Seriously, why do those 2 exist? There was no Modern Times in NU...).

So basically, I feel like an ever-growing number of tags can be counterproductive to the site as a whole as it makes things harder for both readers and authors to find the tags they want when they wanna find/write a story, as not everyone is willing to go through the whole tag list every time they wanna find/write a story to see if there is any tag they forgot about or don't know about that could fit into their story... And well, for the people that are willing to do that, it's actually more of a pain for them too.

That said, useful tags are still useful and should definitely be added... Just uhn... Well, what I consider useful isn't necessarily the same as what other people think I guess? I mean... If it was up to me, I'd exclude all tags related to specific monsters species (Like Dragon), as well as all tags related to the protagonist's weapon (Like Sword Wielder)... But other people find those useful and like them, so... Welp~
... And I'd definitely exclude Modern Times, why does that exist? Seriously... >.>
 

ToastedStarfish_SweetFilledHoney

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Ah, to clarify my point of view (geez, we're in the 3rd page and I still didn't do that?), I'm generally against new tags being added unless they seem really meaningful, but not because my own stories have enough tags to fulfill all their points (my only story currently in the site has 5 tags for one), but because I think a high number of tags actually make things harder on users and on authors as well.

Like uhn... As we discussed the tags in this thread, I actually went through the entire tag list multiple times to see if I could find what would fit into the context of the discussion and stuff. I remembered some of them by head since 95% of those tags were inherited from NU and I went through NU tags dozens and dozens of times to help clean them up (there used to be 1200ish tags before btw, we reduced it to 700ish because there was a bunch of useless stuff).

And well, to put it simply... It's a big pain to go through the whole tag list, and it only becomes more and more of a pain as the number of tags grows bigger and bigger. And like... Even with the current number, there are already tags that get missed (like how Fairies and Werebeasts were missed by you (or was it someone else? I forgot) before), and there are also tags that the person ends up not associating with the thing they want (Like Modern Day for when you want Contemporary), which ends up making things even harder... And then there are redundant tags that exist for God knows what reason (Like Modern Day and Modern Times... Seriously, why do those 2 exist? There was no Modern Times in NU...).

So basically, I feel like an ever-growing number of tags can be counterproductive to the site as a whole as it makes things harder for both readers and authors to find the tags they want when they wanna find/write a story, as not everyone is willing to go through the whole tag list every time they wanna find/write a story to see if there is any tag they forgot about or don't know about that could fit into their story... And well, for the people that are willing to do that, it's actually more of a pain for them too.

That said, useful tags are still useful and should definitely be added... Just uhn... Well, what I consider useful isn't necessarily the same as what other people think I guess? I mean... If it was up to me, I'd exclude all tags related to specific monsters species (Like Dragon), as well as all tags related to the protagonist's weapon (Like Sword Wielder)... But other people find those useful and like them, so... Welp~
... And I'd definitely exclude Modern Times, why does that exist? Seriously... >.>
You did clarify how you were against it.

And to clarify my point of view, there are still tags that feel limited. In this comment you posted all the tags that I missed. But what I meant was also the tags that weren't there, the ones that you mentioned were solid: heartbreak, addiction, redemption.

Things like mental health (not just depression) is there a tag for that talks about mental health category?

Like I said, some tags are way too specific and doesn't cover a general topic. You pointed out drugs as addiction. There's way more different types of addiction though.

You also pointed out that I could tag a story by adultery, betrayal, affair, broken engagement. Adultery and affair are similar. But there's also plenty of broken up romance relationships that don't involve any of that so how am I going to tag it when None of those fit?

So this is what I meant by some tags are specific. You got stories where while the general concept of that tag could fit, but because the tag is too specific, they couldn't put that story under that tag.

And what about Utopia?

And yes, I can see and also think Modern Day vs Modern Times should be condensed into one tag.
 
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WakerOfWinds

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I never said you couldn't. Some of the magic systems in A Game of Thrones would roughly constitute as Hard and others Soft. That doesn't make the distinction any less defined.



It absolutely is well defined. You even defined it yourself. The fact that you can find definitions for it that is consistent and widely used means it is well defined. Nerds argue on the internet, you know that right? You do know that people arguing over where a magic system sits on the scale is not the same thing as arguing whether the scale itself exists.

It's less vague than Genderbender, which by your own admission could encompass everything from reincarnation to traps to Futanari et al. By your previous description, I would say the Genderbender tag is useless without the follow-up tags. Meanwhile, a Hard Magic tag or a Soft Magic tag would immediately tell you something (there is magic and its rules are either fairly clearly delineated or they aren't).



It's not a vague way of saying it, it is literally the defined way of saying it. What the words Hard Magic System and Soft Magic System mean are clear-cut and set-in-stone.
This I think reveals why the fantasy tags could work - no tag is going to perfectly work, but I think that some of the fantasy tags would make it much more specific.

Another thing I think would be a good tag is an age rating.
 

ToastedStarfish_SweetFilledHoney

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This I think reveals why the fantasy tags could work - no tag is going to perfectly work, but I think that some of the fantasy tags would make it much more specific.

Another thing I think would be a good tag is an age rating.
There's already a R-18 tag and Fantasy has its own genre listed.
Unless you want a PG-13 tag?
 

WakerOfWinds

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Just FYI, I'm not against gender-bender or any of those other tags people keep mentioning. But I just wish tags weren't so limited on here. There are some specific themed, and then others are very broad concept.

Eventually, you will have people writing all kinds of different stories on here, not just those popular trending ones right now. And it would really suck if a lot of those existing tags right now don't exactly apply to them, which limits what they can tag, which contributes making it harder to find those unique stories on here.

It would be also nice to not have to make a feature request for every tag you couldn't find for your story. Like what I wanted to point out, and what someone also questioned, that can give way to lot of spamming requests for tags, even though some tags are very valid and solid to add.

Just wanted to point out though, it seems like the people who are okay with these limited tags is because their stories already have existing tags that are more specifically themed to their stories that they read or write, so of course, they're more likely to be satisfied. But, if you didn't had a lot of those tags to choose from for your story, then you might suggest otherwise. In this thread, you could already find couple tags that don't exist.

There's already a R-18 tag and Fantasy has its own genre listed.
Unless you want a PG-13 tag?
Something like that - this doesn't necessarily indicate that you're that young, but some people prefer stories with less adult content.
 

Kenjona

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Just because you dislike and avoid a genre, does mean that it should be torn apart for you.
It's up to you to overcome your own bias to find good stories.

Ok those two sentences were just unnecessary digs. I freely admit in my previous posts it is only a personal desire on my part, like many on here including yourself we like what we like, no need to make a dig at people for what they like.

Most readers on this site like GB.

Since it seems a fairly broad based tag on here and covers many aspects, your probably right. My question is how many of those would like it broken down more for them? Mind you I am also against to much bloat in the tags system and if this would bloat the tag system to much, by all means leave it as is.
 

Kenjona

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See, if things like this should be broken down to several different tags, what about other types of tags that are lumped together? I feel like some things are lumped together and then there are just some tags that are very specific.
Agree, and that kind of seems a problem with the Tag system, they already have a 3 tag system as it is Genre/Fandom/Tags. But I have no idea on a "better" system, and from what I am reading in this forum it seems like it takes a LOT of work to even keep a Tag system "uncluttered".
 

AliceShiki

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Agree, and that kind of seems a problem with the Tag system, they already have a 3 tag system as it is Genre/Fandom/Tags. But I have no idea on a "better" system, and from what I am reading in this forum it seems like it takes a LOT of work to even keep a Tag system "uncluttered".
Tbh, it doesn't take that much work.

Like uhn... Back in the old NU days, when anyone could add any tag they want and we had over 1200 tags... That took a lot of effort to clean up and unclutter, because we had not only to find out what tags were useless and needed to be erased/merged, but we needed to also check the Edit Logs daily to see if anyone added any tag with a typo that we had to fix, and rather anyone created a new tag and rather or not it was worth keeping... That was a mess.

The current system where the tags can only be added by request though? It's actually pretty easy to keep uncluttered because... Well, it is already uncluttered. It will only become cluttered if Tony decides to add any tag anyone suggests without any thought behind it. Most tags people end up suggesting do have a proper reason and use behind them though, so I could see most of them being added.
 

Kenjona

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Tbh, it doesn't take that much work.

Like uhn... Back in the old NU days, when anyone could add any tag they want and we had over 1200 tags... That took a lot of effort to clean up and unclutter, because we had not only to find out what tags were useless and needed to be erased/merged, but we needed to also check the Edit Logs daily to see if anyone added any tag with a typo that we had to fix, and rather anyone created a new tag and rather or not it was worth keeping... That was a mess.

The current system where the tags can only be added by request though? It's actually pretty easy to keep uncluttered because... Well, it is already uncluttered. It will only become cluttered if Tony decides to add any tag anyone suggests without any thought behind it. Most tags people end up suggesting do have a proper reason and use behind them though, so I could see most of them being added.
Good to know, Thank you.
 
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