Isekai is old as heck

[Deleted member 54065]

Ok, I believe your thinking has gone very backwards here. A new trope developing within the genre does not mean the word's definition has changed to be narrowed to only stories that contain this new trope.

It's a new trope in an existing genre. This means the genre has expanded, not narrowed. It's completely backwards and myopic to think that way.

I don't think I'm going against what you're trying to tell me.

I did not strictly define 'isekai' as what I said in my previous posts. What my opinion is saying is that, isekai has come to be defined--especially by those who are not into writing--as what I stated in my opinion.

And yeah, I think you're the one who has a myopic view on the topic. Why do you keep insisting on your views, when I already stated it's my opinion in the first place?

 

[Jemini]

I don't think I'm going against what you're trying to tell me.

I did not stictly define 'isekai' as what I said in my previous posts. What my opinion is saying is that, isekai has come to be defined--especially by those who are not into writing--as in my opinion.

And yeah, I think you're the one who has a myopic view on the topic. Why do you keep insisting on your views, when I already stated it's my opinion in the first place?

Dude, you presented your opinion as an objective argument. As soon as you do that, it's open to scrutiny.

As such, I countered your opinion with the literal definition, and offered objective proof that your opinion does not conform to reality.

So, if you're fine with having an opinion that does not conform to reality, I guess I won't keep bashing you over the head, but I'd prefer it if you'd stop trying to misinform other people. As such, so long as you keep on pushing this incorrect stance, I will continue to push the correct definition. I can't stop you from being wrong if you want to hold onto your incorrect opinion, but I will make sure the correct information gets heard by the 3rd parties in here.

EDIT: (Also, you said people are free to disagree with you. So why are you suddenly getting all defensive and pushing it as though there's something wrong with me the moment I disagree with you and start winning the argument?)

 

[Deleted member 54065]

Dude, you presented your opinion as an objective argument. As soon as you do that, it's open to scrutiny.

Dude, I don't know what kind of eyes do you have but I stated that "I offer my opinion".

As such, I countered your opinion with the literal definition, and offered objective proof that your opinion does not conform to reality.

Yes, I'm aware that my opinion does not conform to reality. Hence, I offered my opinion.

So, if you're fine with having an opinion that does not conform to reality, I guess I won't keep bashing you over the head, but I'd prefer it if you'd stop trying to misinform other people. As such, so long as you keep on pushing this incorrect stance, I will continue to push the correct definition.

I'm not misinforming anyone. Merely stating an opinion isn't going to lead into misinformation immediately. You argued against my point, which is good, and I agree with some of your points.

But, do you even have to call me backward and myopic? In the first place, you're the one who keeps bashing me for no reason at all, ever since we crossed paths.

Got no life, Essay boy? I'll just agree to disagree with you. You're wasting my time.

 

[Jemini]

But, do you even have to call me backward and myopic? In the first place, you're the one who keeps bashing me for no reason at all, ever since we crossed paths.

It was the way of thinking that you offered that is backwards and myopic. You defined a recent niche trope within a very old genre as the entirety of the genre, as though the development of this trope suddenly changed the definition of this very old genre. That's seriously not how it works, at all. I think the terms fit.

And you then went on with a personal attack after that, so I responded in kind. You presented a backwards and myopic way of thinking, and I called it for what it is. You are the one who decided to take that as a personal attack on you rather than calling out a bad argument which is what I was doing.

EDIT: And I will say, maybe I could have chosen better words, but when a person hears an argument that astoundingly stupid sometimes you can't help yourself but explode into mocking language, because it is just really hard not to when you see something that goes that far outside of a realistic and rational way of thinking. I was just baffled by what I was seeing, so the words just came out reflexively.

 

[TotallyHuman]

We talked about this in the forum before, but I offer my opinion what sets apart isekai from the old, "otherworld" classics.

As an isekai writer myself, I think what sets the genre apart is the trope that the main character uses his/her knowledge and conveniences of the contemporary modern world (at most cases, Earth Knowledge and tech) to solve the problems he/she encounters.

For short, it answers an old question of mine from when I was a kid: "What happens when an M16 rifle and an APC are used against a dragon? And would a missile fare well against magic spells?"

Feel free to dispute or add on my take, it's only an opinion anyway.

eh, coming to a medieval world and doing moderny stuff is not new at all.
I remember a comedy movie about a black guy who was transported to a medieval world and was knighted or something? Married a princess too iirc
If you want fantasy, then there is the classic with undead in a medieval setting, a chainsaw for an arm and a protagonist who has the same name as a pokemon character too
Comic books had this kind of scenario a million times too
There are many such movies and stories. Not new at all

 

[Deleted member 54065]

eh, coming to a medieval world and doing moderny stuff is not new at all.
I remember a comedy movie about a black guy who was transported to a medieval world and was knighted or something? Married a princess too iirc
If you want fantasy, then there is the classic with undead in a medieval setting, a chainsaw for an arm and a protagonist who has the same name as a pokemon character too
There are many such movies amd stories. Not new at all

Yeah, someone mentioned that movie to me before, and I find it similar to the contemporary definition of isekai. Yet, for some strange reason it's not categorized as such.

While we are all aware that this is not something new, 'isekai' in its contemporary sense is that subgenre of portal fantasy I previously described, if you'd ask the non-writers.

Just like how the Filipino word 'bakla' originally meant 'confused' in English, but it became synonymous with a 'gay man' in our contemporary language.

Also, just to make it clear for our resident basement dweller and essay writer, Jemini, I do not claim my opinion is correct. For one, I just based it off my own observations.

 

[Prince_Azmiran_Myrian]

@Hans.Trondheim
@Jemini

We already had bingo, we don't need any new drama.

 

[TsumiHokiro]

@Hans.Trondheim
@Jemini

We already had bingo, we don't need any new drama.

But @Corty wanted drama!

 

[Deleted member 54065]

@Hans.Trondheim
@Jemini

We already had bingo, we don't need any new drama.

As much I didn't want drama, our resident basement dweller bashed me again. I agree with his some of his points, and tried to be civil. But no, he's hatin' me for some time now, and I'm no idiot not to notice that.

So me, being the petty asshole that I am, would like to have my petty revenge. I've been patient, mind you. But this time, enough is enough.

Feel free to ban me anytime.

 

[Prince_Azmiran_Myrian]

As much I didn't want drama, our resident basement dweller bashed me again. I agree with his some of his points, and tried to be civil. But no, he's hatin' me for some time now, and I'm no idiot not to notice that.

So me, being the petty asshole I am, would like to have my petty revenge.

Feel free to ban me anytime.

I banish you to the world of Chersea.
There you shall learn to purge your intrusive thoughts.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

I banish you to the world of Chersea.
There you shall learn to purge your intrusive thoughts.

Please burn and purge my mind of improper thoughts. Thank you, Your Draconic Highness.

 

[Corty]

But @Corty wanted drama!

I need to be careful what I ask for

 

[AYM]

I banish you to the world of Chersea.
There you shall learn to purge your intrusive thoughts.

Crosses out the "Dragon Purging" bingo box

 

[Jemini]

Yeah, someone mentioned that movie to me before, and I find it similar to the contemporary definition of isekai. Yet, for some strange reason it's not categorized as such.

While we are all aware that this is not something new, 'isekai' in its contemporary sense is that subgenre of portal fantasy I previously described, if you'd ask the non-writers.

Just like how the Filipino word 'bakla' originally meant 'confused' in English, but it became synonymous with a 'gay man' in our contemporary language.

Also, just to make it clear for our resident basement dweller and essay writer, Jemini, I do not claim my opinion is correct. For one, I just based it off my own observations.

And you said you weren't misinforming people, and yet here you go insisting against evidence that this is the definitive modern definition. Now all that you're doing is trying to off-set the blame by using the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, insisting it's some undefined and amorphos "modern non-writer" who thinks this is the definition, therefore it is.

FYI, there's no objective source that says what you say, and the wikipedia entry on the subject directly contradicts you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isekai

Also, I'm going to say this now. Stop it with the personal attacks. I'm not saying this because I think you have the proper decency to refrain from it, you have already admitted outright you're making personal attacks for the sake of petty revenge. I am saying this because by expressing my opposition to it in this manner, it will qualify for moderator action if you continue after this point.

(And for the record, I have no memory of who you are. For all I'm aware, this is the first time I've ever interacted with you. If we've butted heads in this manner in the past, it's because you've said similar astonishingly incorrect things in an order that has prompted a similar reaction from me, and likewise have also over-reacted to my baffled state and started with drama and personal attacks as you did here. I quite honestly don't even know who you are.)

 

[BearlyAlive]

Isekai be old as heck. And just like "benevolent" eco-terrorism it made an even more obnoxious comeback in an even more vile form in current times.

I mean we had "other worlds" pretty much since day -1. Afterlife is a pretty big one, wherever the god(s) reside is another one and then there's whatever other mythological stuff resides in.

Modern (Japanese style) Isekai just made its comeback in a form that appealed so much to the talentless masses that it turned from a story template into a whole story genre.

 

[owotrucked]

Good ol isekai manga format: 1 page about how Earth sucks, a panel with truck kun, a page about god or system giving a cheat, rescue some wealthy merchant with the power of violence, town is attacked by demon, start quest to defeat the demon lord, optional: get some slaves and a loli dragon

 

[georgelee5786]

I don't think the Inferno quite counts, I'd need to check the context of it again.

Also, let us not forget the Chronicles of Narnia

 

[Jemini]

I don't think the Inferno quite counts, I'd need to check the context of it again.

Also, let us not forget the Chronicles of Narnia

Chronicles of Narnia is really in the middle of the time-line so far as those things go. It's most note-worthy aspect is that it is a contemporary of Lord of the Rings, coming out at around the same time as Tolkein was re-defining the fantasy genre AWAY from the otherworld trope that has actually been an integral part of fantasy since it's inception.

(Literally, the later books in the series share publishing years with the early books in LotR.)

If we're discussing how freaking old Isekai is, it makes sense to talk about things like Through the Looking Glass (name of the book Alice in Wonderland was based off of) which is the oldest story still known today that solidly uses the otherworld trope within fantasy, or something older that might not be so well known. Or, make the argument that religious lore qualifies, as many people here have been doing.

I'm not exactly sure how you'd count Baba Yaga in these stories. Supposedly, she's supposed to be a witch that lives in the forests of our world in Slavic folk lore, but our modern understanding of the world would very much interpret the oddities that start happening as you get near Baba Yaga's hut, such as birds starting to talk and horses that represent morning, noon, and night riding by (because apparently Baba Yaga is so powerful she can control the sun using her horses,) it definitely comes off as otherworldly.

There's even been a D20 campaign in Dragon Magazine made about Baba Yaga that says her hut has extra dimensional properties to it, and gates to the lower plains in various rooms.

 

[owotrucked]

Who the hell cares?

Sanest take

So I noticed that some fellows are talking as if the "isekai" genre was a fad, some shiny new gimmick that is near the end of its ability to keep attention. [...] But I would like to take a moment so we can remember that "I find myself suddenly in a new and strange and magical world!" is not a new idea.

If you equate isekai to portal fantasy, there's no point in using the word "isekai", and yet people still do

Also, you should worry first about what your fellows refer by "isekai" when they make their statement. Language, words, and categories have no real basis except fulfilling sortal function for convenience of communication.

You interpret "Isekai is a fad" as "portal fantasy is a fad", but what they could mean is "stories like mushoku tensei, re:zero, slime tensei, konosuba are a fad". As you can see, these two statements are radically different.

You could rename dogs as "cat" on the basis that they both have four paws, a tail, and a cute mug, and no one would care. This would only hurt yourself and your interaction with society by creating misunderstanding. Like someone would say "cat are easy to take care of" and you would retort "cats (dogs) need a lot of attention and care!".

There's no real authority when it comes to communication. Even dictionnaries or encyclopedia can only attempt to vaguely point out characteristics, but there will always be a tricky bastard who enjoy finding loophole in definition to shove something absurd into it.

If you offer a soup to your friend and it turns out to be a bowl of cereal, their reaction won't be "haha, that's right, cereals in milk fits the definition of soup". No, it will be "this bastard is a sociopath, and I really should reconsider our friendship". In such a case, definitions should be improved to describe the usage of the word soup more accurately in society, instead of necessarily just accepting cereal bowl as a soup.

Sorting reality comes first and definition comes after. Corty refers to @Corty. You can have fun defining Corty as a person who post AI-generated cute girls and no one would care. Then according to that logic defined, you could call @RepresentingEnvy Corty and you'll be internally consistent. The only issue is that other people will look at you strangely like you're an autistic retard because everyone else agree in another usage of Corty. In this context, the genre "isekai" might poses a similar problem that if you reduce it to a single characteristic and shove all kind of absurd titles in that category, everyone will look at you funny.

Even the word sandwich can be up to debate:

In conclusion, yeah portal fantasy isn't a fad alright, but maybe you're pushing the "isekai" genre way beyond its common usage from readers.

If you tell me that Dante's Inferno is an isekai and there's no filler chapter praising the japanese cuisine and the nostalgia of rice and soy sauce, you'd leave me with no choice but to question your trustworthiness.

 

[Corty]

Sorting reality comes first and definition comes after. Corty refers to @Corty. You can have fun defining Corty as a person who post AI-generated cute girls and no one would care. Then according to that logic defined, you could call @RepresentingEnvy Corty and you'll be internally consistent. The only issue is that other people will look at you strangely like you're an autistic retard because everyone else agree in another usage of Corty. In this context, the genre "isekai" might poses a similar problem that if you reduce it to a single characteristic and shove all kind of absurd titles in that category, everyone will look at you funny.

I want to frame this.