Mood as a filterable feature

zamu

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Mood/Setting Tone as a filterable feature of stories

Premise:
The ability to denote and filter based on the mood of stories would be a huge boon and would allow people to avoid the big problem of not meeting user expectations.​

Reasoning:
I feel that a lot of the reason people end up with huge swathes of low ratings by not properly communicating the mood of their story strongly enough. Readers pick up stories due to interesting premises or matching some set of tags and then begin reading the story. At some point in the future, the reader is disenfranchised with their time investment as the story takes a large mood shift that, from the reader's perspective, they didn't sign up for and thus rate the story negatively. Having the author make a clear statement of what the overall mood of the story will before ever posting their first chapter would help immensely.​
Of course, this could be implemented in tags, but as they seem to be something the author gets to arbitrarily choose, they aren't really a great tool for this.​
Expected Behavior:
  • Each story would have an objective mood attribute that can be used to filter which stories are displayed in queries/listings.
  • The mood attribute is not arbitrary. It is selected out of curated set of moods.
  • Author should be able to change the mood as the story progresses.
  • Make it clear to users that it is overall mood
Assumptions:
  • Mood is multifaceted and can be interpreted subjectively. Therefore breaking tone down into components might be a better way to demonstrate the tone to users to avoid the simplistic tones such as happy or sad.
    • Think Grim-Noble vs Bright-Dark or idealistic-realistic vs romantic-cynical (ie. LOTR is NobleDark or idealistic romantic story). The former probably better expresses Mood.
Other notes: Maybe allow users to vote towards changing the mood attribute with votes? Some authors might forget (or even maliciously ignore) shifts in mood.
 
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PandaSempai

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Hmm... This may actually be a great idea. However, one problem that may arise is that, not all author actually bother to put in some tags and such. So, if this feature was ever added, I think that would also be the case.
 

thedude3445

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Story tones change over time and can be very difficult to pinpoint. Individual chapters can have much different content that have a vastly different tone, and then there are abrupt tonal shifts that are outright spoilers to include. I don't think tone is something that can really even be categorized like this thread hopes for, unfortunately.

A good example is the critically-acclaimed comedy movie Popstar: Never Stop Never Stopping. It's a wacky, cartoonish mockumentary that parodies the entire music industry, but it also has some genuine emotions hidden in there. There's a few scenes later on that are downright heartfelt, and it's very important to the story. But is this a movie you would categorize as heartfelt? No, because this is a movie primarily about a talentless pop singer fighting bees with flamethrowers and getting in fistfights with Martin Sheen.

Actually, Lord of the Rings is another good example. It's this very serious, very world-changing story of a war to fight a dark lord, but the content of the story is so much more lighthearted and jovial than you would ever be led to believe by the movie adaptations. The first book (out of six) has almost no action in it at all until the very end, and the third book half consists of some Hobbits interacting with a fanciful talking tree. Is it dark, or is it light? Hard to say.
 

zamu

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I don't think tone is something that can really even be categorized like this thread hopes for, unfortunately.
Whoops, definitely meant Mood or Setting Tone rather than just tone. While there are tonal shifts from scene to scene in stories, the mood or setting tone of a story actually rarely changes. Lord of the Rings has a mood of seriousness to the narrative, while tone from scene to scene changes. You can also easily denote the mood that you are trying to portray in a story just by the nature of it's genres. Popstar: Never Stop Never Stopping from your description obviously has a lighthearted mood in the story. Nothing says that either story can't portray a different tone in a single scene or have a scene that breaks the mood, but overall the sum of the story is not going to shift because of a single scene.

As for tonal shifts, I can't think of a story that has multiple good, abrupt tonal shift. Most stories that have large tonal shifts only have them occur once and then they stick to that tone for the rest of the work. Any more than that and the audience would probably fatigue of the changing tone.

Regarding spoilers, scenes with different moods should not change the overall mood of the story.

Overall I am trying to avoid having people write a synopsis that promises a specific mood in a story and then having huge shifts just because the author wants to be edgy or shock their readers.
 

zamu

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Hmm... This may actually be a great idea. However, one problem that may arise is that, not all author actually bother to put in some tags and such. So, if this feature was ever added, I think that would also be the case.
Just make it mandatory to fill out before they can make a new novel. At the moment you can't have a story without a title of some sort. So just make it that any new story must have a mood specified.
 

PandaSempai

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Just make it mandatory to fill out before they can make a new novel. At the moment you can't have a story without a title of some sort. So just make it that any new story must have a mood specified.
Actually, this so called 'tone of the story' that you speak of should be included in the Synopsis itself. However, most WN writers just write blurbs and not those Synopsis. That's why there are little to no info about the story itself when you read the 'Synopsis'(which is just blurbs and not a synopsis).

This request arose because authors are too lazy(probably) to write a decent synopsis. Thus, the tone, general direction, and etc. of the story was never conveyed properly to the readers. Even if SH were to hypothetically add this feature, I think that this problem wouldn't be solved that easily.
 

zamu

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Actually, this so called 'tone of the story' that you speak of should be included in the Synopsis itself. However, most WN writers just write blurbs and not those Synopsis. That's why there are little to no info about the story itself when you read the 'Synopsis'(which is just blurbs and not a synopsis).

This request arose because authors are too lazy(probably) to write a decent synopsis. Thus, the tone, general direction, and etc. of the story was never conveyed properly to the readers. Even if SH were to hypothetically add this feature, I think that this problem wouldn't be solved that easily.
Even if the authors write a good synopsis, there would not be a way to filter based on synopses as that would require natural language processing to process the synopsis and sentiment analysis to extract the mood. It's much easier to just have attributes that are used to filter stories that match a certain mood/setting tone for querying and displaying relevant stories that a user is interested in.

As for whether authors properly use the feature, then just reverse the dependency then and have users vote on it instead of having it be author driven. That way it's more of a community vote saying that a story is of a certain mood instead of something authors can attempt to dictate.
 

PandaSempai

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As for whether authors properly use the feature, then just reverse the dependency then and have users vote on it instead of having it be author driven. That way it's more of a community vote saying that a story is of a certain mood instead of something authors can attempt to dictate.
That would just lead to trolls do what trolls are best at. I don't think that it would be a good idea to let the readers have a 'say' in these types of things. It would just make things more messed up and such. If anything, you could just probably ask for a story that would best fit your criterion in this Forum.

Let's also take into account the work that has to be done in order to implement this. And, even if it was implemented, the devs would have a hard time managing the complaints that will be thrown at them if ever there were trolls who mess up the 'votes' in the 'tone of their story' thingy.

An example of this would be the Webnovel platform. Back then, Webnovel allowed the readers to put tags on the story. It was a very good idea on paper, but their expectations was different from reality. Readers upvoted shitty tags that has little to no relevance to the story, even going as far as adding BL, YAOI, YURI, NETORI, NETORARE, NETORASE, NETORARERASE, and etc.

As a result of this blunder, multiple authors left their platform while some even stopped writing altogether due to the trolling and headache that they had to deal with. It didn't help that the 'Glorified Comment Section'(Review Section) was quick to judge, giving the story a 1 star rating after reading the tags.
 
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thedude3445

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I do see the merit in trying to prevent authors from making big tonal shifts, like the people who write "wacky comedy parody" stories but then by chapter 6 everything is already serious and edgy and there's an elf getting sexually assaulted or something. But I feel like there are too many workarounds that authors can have if they intentionally want to mislead readers, or worse, if the author isn't skilled enough to realize that they have turned their lighthearted story into one that is decidedly dark and violent.

NETORI, NETORARE, NETORASE, NETORARERASE, and etc.

Listen, I only ever heard of the second one of these, and I was happy to keep it that way, but then I remembered, "Crap, I'm fluent in Japanese," and my brain refused to let me ignore these words. Wow, the internet really has a niche for everything...
 

zamu

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That would just lead to trolls do what trolls are best at. I don't think that it would be a good idea to let the readers have a 'say' in these types of things. It would just make things more messed up and such. If anything, you could just probably ask for a story that would best fit your criterion in this Forum.

Let's also take into account the work that has to be done in order to implement this. And, even if it was implemented, the devs would have a hard time managing the complaints that will be thrown at them if ever there were trolls who mess up the 'votes' in the 'tone of their story' thingy.

An example of this would be the Webnovel platform. Back then, Webnovel allowed the readers to put tags on the story. It was a very good idea on paper, but their expectations was different from reality. Readers upvoted shitty tags that has little to no relevance to the story, even going as far as adding BL, YAOI, YURI, NETORI, NETORARE, NETORASE, NETORARERASE, and etc.

As a result of this blunder, multiple authors left their platform while some even stopped writing altogether due to the trolling and headache that they had to deal with. It didn't help that the 'Glorified Comment Section'(Review Section) was quick to judge, giving the story a 1 star rating after reading the tags.
This wouldn't be a user submitted tag, but instead a poll of the mood. A user would only get a single vote so if majority of users vote correctly, then it's fine.
 

K5Rakitan

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I love it! This sounds like a very fun feature.
 

PandaSempai

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I do see the merit in trying to prevent authors from making big tonal shifts, like the people who write "wacky comedy parody" stories but then by chapter 6 everything is already serious and edgy and there's an elf getting sexually assaulted or something. But I feel like there are too many workarounds that authors can have if they intentionally want to mislead readers, or worse, if the author isn't skilled enough to realize that they have turned their lighthearted story into one that is decidedly dark and violent.



Listen, I only ever heard of the second one of these, and I was happy to keep it that way, but then I remembered, "Crap, I'm fluent in Japanese," and my brain refused to let me ignore these words. Wow, the internet really has a niche for everything...
Yeah. I totally get the merit of having such a function since, most new authors(like me) tend to forget the direction and tone of our story.
 

PandaSempai

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This wouldn't be a user submitted tag, but instead a poll of the mood. A user would only get a single vote so if majority of users vote correctly, then it's fine.
There are still some problems even if that's the case but it's definitely a great feature to have.
 

yansusustories

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So I'm a bit torn on this one. Regarding this:
I do see the merit in trying to prevent authors from making big tonal shifts
I don't see any merit in preventing authors from doing anything. While I get that it can be annoying for readers to "have to deal" with something like that, framing it this way sounds - at least to me - like trying to limit the creative freedom of authors which I am absolutely against. A site that's meant for authors to upload their original series on should not limit the creativity of the authors after a certain point (that point being the law and ToS of the site).
But, on the other hand, I do agree with this:
I love it! This sounds like a very fun feature.
It does sound like a fun thing that could add to the ability of readers to search for something they'd like (or are in the mood for) which I think is good overall. Personally, I would even use it as a reader every now and then. Although I'd probably still go with the general series finder most of the time. I could imagine this being another option in the series finder though? In fact, some of the tags like 'heartwarming' and similar could probably be migrated over without much of a hassle?

What I'm not quite happy with (yet) would be this:
Just make it mandatory to fill out before they can make a new novel
I get the point that if authors don't use this, then it wouldn't make much sense to implement it. But honestly, even after reading your examples above, I still have no effing idea what the fuck "noble dark" is supposed to be and I've read at least one-third of LotR. It is often hard enough to find useful tags that adequately describe a whole series. Adding some obscure 'mood' makes that even worse and I, personally, might just click on anything to be done with it even if it doesn't actually fit the story. You'd need some very specific explanations (and those are shit even with the tags already IMO) to make this work.
And this is coming from somebody who is not a new author. New authors - I'd imagine - might struggle even more. They have to come up with a title, a cover, a blurb (never understood the want for a synopsis, actually, I'm all for blurbs!), choose the right tags, ... and now also a mood? I think this might be a bit too much to ask of them.

Also, even if we say that readers can vote on the mood (instead of authors choosing that) and ignore possible trolls: Readers often rate and review stories when they have read barely anything. With the overall mood of a story that they vote on, this might be even worse because they feel like what they vote for is the actual mood of the story but it might not be.

Like, personal example: My main series has about 12 volumes or so with each of them being 150k+ words so I'd consider it fairly long. It starts out as this very quirky, comedic thing because the plot seems absurd and the ML is batshit crazy. Mood for that one after reading the first couple of chapters? Probably something happy or heartwarming.
Problem is: It starts to slowly shift into a much, much, much more mature story after the first 100 chapters or so. The story deals with the loss of loved ones, murder, and mental health, ethical questions, star-crossed lovers, unrequited love, betrayal, depression, abusive relationships, ... the list goes on. It's a downright tragedy for large parts of the series.
And no, those aren't any abrupt shifts in the tone of the story. They're hinted at, at the very beginning of the story and slowly manifest themselves. They get more frequent but that doesn't mean that there isn't still the quirky, comedic tone below that. They're both there for most of these volumes and they were both planned. Like, this isn't something I did accidentally, it's how the story is supposed to pan out.

Now, if this feature was to be implemented in either way, I see a big problem:
I wouldn't personally know what overall tone to choose. People who expect something serious would be put off by the first few chapters if that's what they were searching for and people who come for the happy, fluffy, quirky romance would throw the thing away because that's not what they signed up for. The story is, for all intents and purposes, both of these and that from the beginning to the end. By adding a single mood, I'd be misleading the readers instead and make them have expectations that I just can't fulfill because that's just not the story I'm writing.
If readers are the ones to vote for the mood, more than half of them would vote while still reading the first volume and give a vote that doesn't cover the full series. And I - as the author that fully knows that this isn't right - would be without any way to do something about it other than adding a note to my blurb which shouldn't be the intention. I mean, I'm pretty sure the blurb already hints at it enough as is.

So, to summarize (the TL;DR for you lazy people): I do see this as a feature that could be fun but I find it too restrictive with how it's presented so far. It certainly works great for shorter works where huge tonal shifts are likely not going to happen but it can't really account for longer series where those tonal shifts are intended and actually a major part of the story's appeal. I think that there would be the need to at least allow for more than one mood to account for that but that might result in having stories with quite the strange mood cluster.
Also, letting readers vote sounds good in theory but could - once again especially for longer series or even series that update less often or regularly - be a major pain in the ass because readers might vote too soon before they actually have a good grasp on the actual story and its mood.
 

Moonpearl

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It's impossible to categorise the whole spectrum of moods for stories with a few randomly chosen labels.

Also, it would be incredibly suffocating as an author and would encourage people to write more shallow stories to avoid breaking their compulsory "mood".
 

zamu

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[... snipped for shortening the thread length ...]
I do get your concerns of it being something that authors will have to think about and that it could constrain the author. But this feature was meant for readers. If the author did a poor job at conveying the intended mood for a story in their synopsis, the reader might invest hours and then left with nothing when the mood shift occurs. It is realistically an issue of reader time commitment.

To put it into context of something that you might be able to contextualize with your personal experiences, lets look at your stories. In your stories that are above 150k words, your chapter length ranges from 1092 words to 1843 words on average. Given that an average reading speed is between 200 and 300 words per minute (or about 350 to 450 words per minute for those reading at the college level) it can take anywhere from 4 hours to 9 hours to hit that mood shift that you mark at the 100 chapter mark.

If some very fast reader has invested 4+ hours into a story and they liked everything thus far and then they hit a mood change in the story which ruins what they liked about the story, a lot of readers will feel that they wasted time reading the story. To note, four hours is a lot of time to some people and that is if the person reads at a very fast speed, if not we are talking around 6+ hours of time investment if they aren't at the very upper end of reading speed.

I also would like to point out that the mood of the story in most stories doesn't change very often. Mood shifts really only occur at the very beginning of a story or very end as they essentially herald a break from normalcy that sets the story into motion or as a result of the protagonist's journey throughout the story. Even stories which contain two mood shifts at the beginning and end, still have majority of the story in a single mood.

As for the Noble-Grim vs Bright-Dark axes, they originally originate from Games Workshop (the creators of Warhammer 40k) to describe the mood of WH 40k. The Grim-Dark mood plays well with the WH40k's focus on war and that individual skirmishes matter little (grim) and are ultimately futile in the war (dark). The fandom of course satirized it and invented the opposite end of the spectrum, Noble-Bright. This of course bled into the lexicon of fantasy as a short hand to describe mood in a work.

To just blatantly copy paste from a wiki:
  • A noble setting isn't one where everyone is good, more like one where people are active. The actions of a single hero can change the world, and a single big villain can ruin it: there are important people, who are so either by birth, rank or sheer willpower, and every single one of these people MATTER.
  • In a grim world, no matter what you do, an individual can't secure more than an individual victory, if even that, because the rest of the world is too big/scared/powerless/selfish to act upon his impulse.
  • Now, a bright world is one full of opportunity, of wondrous sights to behold. It doesn't mean that it has to be MLP, it can be dangerous, but your first instinct when looking at a new location should be awe and wonder: people may adventure to save the world, but they leave town with a smile upon their face, eager to see what comes next. The shadow of Risk is largely erased by the glint of Adventure. In a bright world, it's quite possible for people to go on adventure just for the hell of it, since the journey is its own reward. Resurrection, or at least means to heal grave injuries, is usually accessible, to counterbalance the fact that the risks out there are real.
  • A dark world is one where life sucks, and something or someone is poised to kill everybody else in the story - whether it be demon overlords, 'nids, or even the lack of water, if this threat has its way everyone dies and they die for good. If you lose an arm, you play a cripple. In the extreme cases, even when you win a fight, your career is over (i.e. gangrene). This means that, even though people may be ready to help (noble), they'll need a damn good reason to do so, since stepping out of line is so dangerous (dark).
With these general broad strokes, its hard to not see where your story fits. Lord of the Rings is a Noble setting where a small hobbit can defeat the big bad evil guy by throwing a ring into a volcano and it's Dark because everything sucks if you aren't ignoring the world and hiding in a hobbit hole hoping no one notices your village.

It's impossible to categorise the whole spectrum of moods for stories with a few randomly chosen labels.

Also, it would be incredibly suffocating as an author and would encourage people to write more shallow stories to avoid breaking their compulsory "mood".
I would beg to differ that it's hard to categorize a story's mood with a set of well chosen labels. As I mention above, a story's mood is predominately one mood. Tone within a scene or set of scenes can easily change and contrast the mood of the story for impact.

For example, Futurama, the american cartoon series, can be described as a Noble-bright setting where any character can enact change on the world and the entire world is a world of marvel and futuristic awe. While it is a Noble-Bright setting, the most impactful episodes that are cherished by the fan base are those that break from the overall mood. The ones that come to mind are Season 4 Episode 61 "Jurrasic Bark", Season 4 Episode 12 "The Sting", and Season 7 Episode 7 "The Late Philip J. Fry". All three of those episodes still contain the light comedic mood at times, but still have very heavy, somber tones at certain points.

Maybe I am missing something and if you could point it out and provide examples that would be great.

No one is saying that it's a static attribute that once set in
 

zamu

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Readers upvoted shitty tags that has little to no relevance to the story, even going as far as adding BL, YAOI, YURI, NETORI, NETORARE, NETORASE, NETORARERASE, and etc.
Note that those are genres and tags and decidedly not what I mentions of how it should work. I am thinking of some set of axes that the readers can vote on or that the author can decide that they think the general mood of the story reflects.
 

yansusustories

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I do get your concerns of it being something that authors will have to think about and that it could constrain the author. But this feature was meant for readers.
I do get that, yes. But my point is: If authors are unable to choose a mood because they don't understand what fits their story / nothing fits their story well, and readers' votes are unreliable because they might not actually read far enough into the story (you calculated yourself how long it'd take them and how many will reach that point before voting?), then the moods that come out of that might just be wrong. Which, in turn, means that readers would once again pointlessly read something they don't want.

In regard to this and your further explanation:
This of course bled into the lexicon of fantasy as a short hand to describe mood in a work.
I have never in my life heard of this before and I feel like 'bleeding into the lexicon of fantasy' brings up another problem: This only seems to be relevant for a certain kind of story? Like, I see that this might have a huge impact on anything in the fantasy genre that deals with adventure and stuff but ... other genres? Like, what the fuck do romance novels do? Comedy? School Life? Slice of Life? Just examples but these all strike me as genres that would have (in large parts if they're not mixed with something fantasy or similar) no part in this at all? Or am I still not understanding these 'moods'? :blob_hmm_two:

With these general broad strokes, its hard to not see where your story fits.
To be honest, I still have no idea :blob_joy: Truth be told, the longer I think about it, the more I feel that I'm really not sure if I get these 'moods'. Which is pretty much what I meant when I said you'd have to have very good explanations or this would end up in a mess. But maybe it's because I just can't really reconcile that with genres outside of fantasy yet? Like, seriously, can you give me an example of where you'd put a romance novel or something?
 

Moonpearl

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To just blatantly copy paste from a wiki:
  • A noble setting isn't one where everyone is good, more like one where people are active. The actions of a single hero can change the world, and a single big villain can ruin it: there are important people, who are so either by birth, rank or sheer willpower, and every single one of these people MATTER.
  • In a grim world, no matter what you do, an individual can't secure more than an individual victory, if even that, because the rest of the world is too big/scared/powerless/selfish to act upon his impulse.
  • Now, a bright world is one full of opportunity, of wondrous sights to behold. It doesn't mean that it has to be MLP, it can be dangerous, but your first instinct when looking at a new location should be awe and wonder: people may adventure to save the world, but they leave town with a smile upon their face, eager to see what comes next. The shadow of Risk is largely erased by the glint of Adventure. In a bright world, it's quite possible for people to go on adventure just for the hell of it, since the journey is its own reward. Resurrection, or at least means to heal grave injuries, is usually accessible, to counterbalance the fact that the risks out there are real.
  • A dark world is one where life sucks, and something or someone is poised to kill everybody else in the story - whether it be demon overlords, 'nids, or even the lack of water, if this threat has its way everyone dies and they die for good. If you lose an arm, you play a cripple. In the extreme cases, even when you win a fight, your career is over (i.e. gangrene). This means that, even though people may be ready to help (noble), they'll need a damn good reason to do so, since stepping out of line is so dangerous (dark).
With these general broad strokes, its hard to not see where your story fits. Lord of the Rings is a Noble setting where a small hobbit can defeat the big bad evil guy by throwing a ring into a volcano and it's Dark because everything sucks if you aren't ignoring the world and hiding in a hobbit hole hoping no one notices your village.

These just plain don't work if you're writing enough depth and variety into your stories... Everything on this is either "everything is glorious and victory assured" or "everything is shit and everyone is shit".

A world should be far more complicated than that. Maybe resurrection and victory is easy for the powerful, but peasants are still going to die or suffer in wars. Maybe things are relatively happy, but your characters are all abuse victims and there's no easy fix for the PTSD. Maybe some people are murderers and some people are saints.

With your broad strokes, I can't categorise ANY of my stories easily.

Besides, that categorisation list is made for a tabletop war game. It doesn't need the depth of a real story. It was never designed to be tossed onto real fiction.

As a reader, I would find this feature pretty useless and, as a writer, it would put me off uploading my stuff here altogether.
 

yansusustories

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So, I have pondered this a bit more after writing my last response and have to say that especially that romance-example I was asking for has made me feel that this feature just couldn't work this way. Like, I'm an author and I've never heard about this thing and am majorly confused right now. Now, how many readers will be in that position? They would need an explanation as well which, IMO, never works too well. This definitely isn't accessible enough.

Also, to stay with the romance example: If we had a story about a simple office romance, then, following the descriptions you posted, it would be a grim world (because your boss is the boss and you can thus only have individual victories unless you become your own boss but where's the office romance then?) and obviously, it's also dark because contemporary life seems to suck for almost everybody?
If I saw that on any kind of romance novel, you bet I'd click out of there as fast as I opened the thing if I was searching for something fluffy and heartwarming. Which ... it could still be despite these 'moods' if I am getting any of that right? Because the ML and MC could have a super sweet life outside of work and with their own personal victories?

Seriously though, while I still think some form of mood could be interesting, I think that those four you mentioned (which seem to be the only four if I'm getting the axis thing right?) is utterly unsuitable to describe anything than fantasy-type stories.
Personally, I'd rather see us have mood-tags that could be highlighted by a different color or something (similar to how the completed-status of a story shows). Those would likely be more accessible to people who have no prior acquaintance with these axis moods and would likely be more widely-applicable as well.
We already have stuff like 'heartwarming' that I would totally see as a mood of story and it would likely be easier to add further 'mood tags' (e.g., we could totally add something like a grim-mood or noble-mood tag for the fantasy stories that might need this) and change their appearance than to implement a whole new feature as well.

I don't know, just my two cents. Maybe I'm still getting this whole mood-thing wrong.

Edit: Totally agree with what @Moonpearl just said. That's exactly my problem with categorizing.
 
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