Predestination Abilities (and why it’s a garbage troupe for lazy writers)

[LuoirM]

Agreed

I am translating this manga, called Nimotsu Mochi something something (check a translation group called Ksmanga). Dude got the most basic bitch ability ever, he can carries more weight than a normal person, like a pocket dimension ish bull shit but a weight limit. The party kicked him after they got a backpack that can carries more than him, then he found another person with a useless ability, but then when the two combo it's op (the author actually got a reasonable explanation i think)

It was... Fine, I guess. The party got a good reason to feed less mouth, and the combo thing actually make him not that op without discovering the other person

UNTIL the author decided, instead of making the old party like competitors, nemesis that's actually strong or something but just jerks. The author decided to say "so the luggage carrier MC actually buffed them by a lot and now he's gone y'all weak af"

Why do authors ruined their story not 10 chapters in?

 

[TheEldritchGod]

that is pretty funny. sauce me to that novel because if that's anything to go by i might like it. sounds like dude's on the road to accidental chaotic good

A Rules Lawyer Stuck In A Literal RPG

I've been working on it on and off for a while, However, recently work has picked up, so instead of holding off on releasing it, I might have to start it sooner rather than later. I wanted to finish FTS, but I won't have time to for a few weeks. Rather than going dark, I'm gonna start it on Feb 1st.

That was from chapter... 16, I think.

Why do authors ruined their story not 10 chapters in?

Wait a minute, I think I already read this one. But that one focused on just buffing the party.

You know, I got to include that trope. The LitRPG I'm writing is going to starting with the guy dealing with the world he's in, but he's going to keep running into tropes. The next big scene I want is dealing with rescuing elf slaves, but instead of the elf babe going, "I wanna bang you." she's going to go, "I WANT TO GO HOME! I WAS A SEX SLAVE FOR YEARS! DON'T TOUCH ME!" Instead of the elves being weak and helpless, he's going to find out it's an entire empire that's extremely xenophobic because they view humans like humans view perverted goblins.

But after that, I want the party that kicks out the "useless guy", and the MC is going to be in the Adventurer Guild when that happens. He's going to go, "I KNOW THIS! THAT GUY IS GOING TO BE SECRETLY THE BACKBONE OF THE S-TIER PARTY!" Then step in to hire the guy just as they kick him out.

Then he's going to find out the guy is a total loser.

However, since the MC is a rules lawyer, there is no way he's going to admit he made a mistake and he's going to help the guy fix his build and become productive. ("So... yer a... monk... bard... cloister cleric... aristocrat? You... ah... you actually took levels in an NPC class, huh? ... Oh boy.")

 

[Cipiteca396]

I fundamentally dislike the idea that one person should just be straight up better than others, so I mostly agree.

That said, even in stories where it's not explicitly stated that this is happening using a System, it is. It's just part of how most fiction is structured. If there's nothing special about the characters, then you may as well write about a different character instead.

So they'll have plot armor, or a secretly op ability, or a blatantly op ability, or the sheer grit needed to get the job done, or a cheerful charisma, or an amazing work ethic, or a noble bloodline, or a rare magic affinity, or a magic ring, or a million other things.

Even the characters that are meant to subvert this trope usually fail. People always need an excuse to believe that random person was able to stop that plot relevant disaster. The idea that a genuinely normal person could do extraordinary things is too absurd for fiction, even if it happens a lot in real life.

---

I've been reading Level 1 Hero on RR, because it's going to stub soon and I have a crippling fear of missing out. In it, people do an appraisal ritual when they turn 18 that tells them what [Skill] they have. Exactly the trope we're talking about.
Naturally, the protagonist gets an OP one- however, it's tangentially brought up multiple times that it's possible to get stuck with a shitty skill that you don't want.

Every time I look at it, I can't stop thinking about how unfair the whole System is. To me, that's where this trope could become good. I think a story in this format should be written as a call to revolution. Being stuck with a useless [Skill] should be the prompt for a revision of the entire System. To make things better for everyone. It's really hard to not make it a metaphor for real life though, lol.

 

[Notadate]

I like set in stone abilities. And how people can grow em’ and/or use em’.
But

I fundamentally dislike the idea that one person should just be straight up better than others, so I mostly agree.

That said, even in stories where it's not explicitly stated that this is happening using a System, it is. It's just part of how most fiction is structured. If there's nothing special about the characters, then you may as well write about a different character instead.

So they'll have plot armor, or a secretly op ability, or a blatantly op ability, or the sheer grit needed to get the job done, or a cheerful charisma, or an amazing work ethic, or a noble bloodline, or a rare magic affinity, or a magic ring, or a million other things.

Even the characters that are meant to subvert this trope usually fail. People always need an excuse to believe that random person was I able to stop that plot relevant disaster. The idea that a genuinely normal person could do extraordinary things is too absurd for fiction, even if it happens a lot in real life.

---

I've been reading Level 1 Hero on RR, because it's going to stub soon and I have a crippling fear of missing out. In it, people do an appraisal ritual when they turn 18 that tells them what [Skill] they have. Exactly the trope we're talking about.
Naturally, the protagonist gets an OP one- however, it's tangentially brought up multiple times that it's possible to get stuck with a shitty skill that you don't want.

Every time I look at it, I can't stop thinking about how unfair the whole System is. To me, that's where this trope could become good. I think a story in this format should be written as a call to revolution. Being stuck with a useless [Skill] should be the prompt for a revision of the entire System. To make things better for everyone. It's really hard to not make it a metaphor for real life though, lol.

I agree. I hate things were you can’t grow. But at the same time love it.

I like stories were you have set abilities and you must make use of them.

[Potsticker frying] [Cut] [Drizzle], where a person has a set use of the abilities but they can effectively bend the rules to fit other things into it. Or can grow the ability to certain point. Or there is another way for strengh, called hard work. Or too much of a rant.

Two stories I like are, which has set abilities forever are, the witches throne and the reincarnation of a veteran soldier. (Mc is no.1 is an alchemist, but bypasses her innate weakness as a crafter using potions. No.2 the ‘villian’ has a shit ability, store two attacks. But through pure hard work and honing his skills he call still match up with people Who were blessed with more flexible abilities.)

(No.2 Mc is stuck with simple mana weapon constructs at the start till (spoiler) he gains his ability which is based of destruction and reconstruction, based of his original mana & other world energy)
-
To be fair, I dislike litrpg’s. I like non-gamey systems.

Best way to use a system is as a tracker. No stats, unless the stats are the magic. I can put a lot of my deconstructed systems out. Where I took certain parts and focused on a power system using that.

Like my 10-stat point system which can just kill you because those stats are other-dimensional energy being stored in you, after your soul burnt vessels into you.

Or another one where skills are crystallized memories within your soul, that enhances your actions. And abilities are manifestations of the memories used to crystallize the memories.

Or a system. Hp, Mana, Stamina are all different energies and each one carry’s a different rule set. And you’re abilities are based of these strict rule set.

Or gun! Because fuck, guns are useable! In ever one of my systems I make it were a gun is useable to a certain level. Like the first one is only unusable for one stat, because there is only three! And that one just lets you heal or toughen the part. The other two are glass cannons.
(But to be fair all of these are systems I slapped a status screen on to make it easier than describing delving into your soul.
-
I hate stats so much that I remade them to make them make for fucking sense! Like how the fuck would that work in reality, gaining and losing stat points would be devastating. They always describe them altering the body, but what happens to someone with 10 strengths losing 5 points. They never tell! Ahhhhhhhhhh!

 

[Sabruness]

A Rules Lawyer Stuck In A Literal RPG

I've been working on it on and off for a while, However, recently work has picked up, so instead of holding off on releasing it, I might have to start it sooner rather than later. I wanted to finish FTS, but I won't have time to for a few weeks. Rather than going dark, I'm gonna start it on Feb 1st.

That was from chapter... 16, I think.

Wait a minute, I think I already read this one. But that one focused on just buffing the party.

You know, I got to include that trope. The LitRPG I'm writing is going to starting with the guy dealing with the world he's in, but he's going to keep running into tropes. The next big scene I want is dealing with rescuing elf slaves, but instead of the elf babe going, "I wanna bang you." she's going to go, "I WANT TO GO HOME! I WAS A SEX SLAVE FOR YEARS! DON'T TOUCH ME!" Instead of the elves being weak and helpless, he's going to find out it's an entire empire that's extremely xenophobic because they view humans like humans view perverted goblins.

But after that, I want the party that kicks out the "useless guy", and the MC is going to be in the Adventurer Guild when that happens. He's going to go, "I KNOW THIS! THAT GUY IS GOING TO BE SECRETLY THE BACKBONE OF THE S-TIER PARTY!" Then step in to hire the guy just as they kick him out.

Then he's going to find out the guy is a total loser.

However, since the MC is a rules lawyer, there is no way he's going to admit he made a mistake and he's going to help the guy fix his build and become productive. ("So... yer a... monk... bard... cloister cleric... aristocrat? You... ah... you actually took levels in an NPC class, huh? ... Oh boy.")

well, when you start posting you've got a reader.

 

[Daitengu]

It's the difference between a system as a crutch to power, and a system that expresses acquired power.

One is the proper way to play a tabletop RPG, and the other is an artificial roadmap for growth in jrpgs.

On the other hand, isn't that just how life is? We don't get to pick what we excell at. I can't keep a beat. I can't be a pro level artist even after trying for ten years. I have low perception check to the point I can't tell the difference between 30 fps and 60. I suck at fighting games even after practicing for three years. I am rather mechanically inclined however.

Is being optimized for a skill set or two really that different than RL? Do you hate it cause to acknowledge it is to accept you have limitations too? Youngling, real life isn't fair. This particular trope is a fantasy of the authors wishing that the cards they were delt were secretly winners.

 

[FatElf]

Best way to use a system is as a tracker. No stats, unless the stats are the magic. I can put a lot of my deconstructed systems out. Where I took certain parts and focused on a power system using that.

Like my 10-stat point system which can just kill you because those stats are other-dimensional energy being stored in you, after your soul burnt vessels into you.

Or another one where skills are crystallized memories within your soul, that enhances your actions. And abilities are manifestations of the memories used to crystallize the memories.

Or a system. Hp, Mana, Stamina are all different energies and each one carry’s a different rule set. And you’re abilities are based of these strict rule set.

Oh, those ideas are nice.

I'm doing something similar. The novel I'm working on has a system, but it is mostly a tracker of things, and not a granter of almighty abilities.

LitRPG can be fun, to write and read, but it needs work. Often times authors just add stuff that makes no sense, or the numbers are there just to be there, it has no impact in the world itself. Worse still, when the numbers change from one chapter to the other, or break the implied logic of the system.

Anyhow, I like LitRPG, but when isn't just numbers for numbers sake.

 

[CarburetorThompson]

It's the difference between a system as a crutch to power, and a system that expresses acquired power.

One is the proper way to play a tabletop RPG, and the other is an artificial roadmap for growth in jrpgs.

On the other hand, isn't that just how life is? We don't get to pick what we excell at. I can't keep a beat. I can't be a pro level artist even after trying for ten years. I have low perception check to the point I can't tell the difference between 30 fps and 60. I suck at fighting games even after practicing for three years. I am rather mechanically inclined however.

Is being optimized for a skill set or two really that different than RL? Do you hate it cause to acknowledge it is to accept you have limitations too? Youngling, real life isn't fair. This particular trope is a fantasy of the authors wishing that the cards they were delt were secretly winners.

Difference is in real life even if I’m born without an innate talent for archery I can still learn it. In predestination stories if you aren’t born with [Archer Class] then you can never become an archer. There’s a difference between natural talent and divine law that dictates the course of someone’s life.

Also that’s kinda a defeatist attitude. Just because you have no talent at something doesn’t mean you can never be good at it. I don’t think anyone can say that Brolylegs was born with a talent for fighting games, yet he is still able to play at a top competitive level.

 

[Daitengu]

Difference is in real life even if I’m born without an innate talent for archery I can still learn it. In predestination stories if you aren’t born with [Archer Class] then you can never become an archer. There’s a difference between natural talent and divine law that dictates the course of someone’s life.

Also that’s kinda a defeatist attitude. Just because you have no talent at something doesn’t mean you can never be good at it. I don’t think anyone can say that Brolylegs was born with a talent for fighting games, yet he is still able to play at a top competitive level.

Conveniently ignore the plateau a none talent person hits compared to a talented one who puts in the same effort. Let's take the fighting game example. I practiced Guilty Gear from XX to X2R for 5 years straight. I finally got to the same level as my bro who never practiced once. Imagine if he practiced the same amount as me, I'd never win. The combinations of not being able to carry a beat, poor perception, and slow reaction time will always put me behind the competition. There is no way I can consistently deal with frame timing needed to be anything but mediocre. I should know, I've tried a variety of games that show exactly what I lack, and no amount of practice fixes innate physical caps. Rhythm games? yeah, can't consistently keep that beat even with memorization of every note, so I have never perfected any songs. FPS games? Even with capped fps to my monitor, that doesn't change the fact that if I move my mouse as fast as the casual fps player, everything starts to blur.

Nothin defeatist about it, that's just reality. You are good at some things, and you are bad at some things. Stop drinking the shounen protag kool-aid. A Pinto is never beating a Mustang at a race, and a Mustang is never going to be able to go off road like a Jeep, and a Jeep is never gunna take down an Abrams tank. Why do you think society exists? If everyone could do everything to an equal level, there'd be no need for it.

 

[LesserCodex]

Would you consider my hero to be a part of such a theme? yes some people awakenen quirks and it is often predetermined to a combination of their parents. And if so would you say that as an example of it being protrayed well?

 

[CarburetorThompson]

Conveniently ignore the plateau a none talent person hits compared to a talented one who puts in the same effort. Let's take the fighting game example. I practiced Guilty Gear from XX to X2R for 5 years straight. I finally got to the same level as my bro who never practiced once. Imagine if he practiced the same amount as me, I'd never win. The combinations of not being able to carry a beat, poor perception, and slow reaction time will always put me behind the competition. There is no way I can consistently deal with frame timing needed to be anything but mediocre. I should know, I've tried a variety of games that show exactly what I lack, and no amount of practice fixes innate physical caps. Rhythm games? yeah, can't consistently keep that beat even with memorization of every note, so I have never perfected any songs. FPS games? Even with capped fps to my monitor, that doesn't change the fact that if I move my mouse as fast as the casual fps player, everything starts to blur.

Nothin defeatist about it, that's just reality. You are good at some things, and you are bad at some things. Stop drinking the shounen protag kool-aid. A Pinto is never beating a Mustang at a race, and a Mustang is never going to be able to go off road like a Jeep, and a Jeep is never gunna take down an Abrams tank. Why do you think society exists? If everyone could do everything to an equal level, there'd be no need for it.

Everyone has fundamental genetic differences, but in the scale of things it isn’t much. Cars and tanks are created for a specific purpose, humans are not. It’s dumb to compare the two. Sure genetics can help or hinder certain things, but it isn’t a be all end all that’s decided for you before you are even born.

I can’t recognize notes, but I was still able learn a few songs on the mandolin. Back when I was really into csgo I practiced reaction time every day on human benchmark and could see a noticeable improvement. A 5’5” man will never beat Usain Bolt’s record, but it doesn’t mean he can’t be fast as fuq boi.

Of course some people need to put in more effort than others this isn’t Harrison Bergeron. The thing in these fantasy stories is that you aren’t even allowed to put in any effort at all, it’s all decided for you. Sure you may suck at video games, but at least you can still play them and improve no matter how little that improvement may be. Often in these stories if you aren’t born with the perk you can never achieve it.

In these stories you can’t even get to a plateau of progress, because you can’t even start making progress to begin with,

 

[Paul_Tromba]

What about stories where everyone's lives and decisions are unknowingly fixed and the MC was given true free will?

 

[Notadate]

Difference is in real life even if I’m born without an innate talent for archery I can still learn it. In predestination stories if you aren’t born with [Archer Class] then you can never become an archer. There’s a difference between natural talent and divine law that dictates the course of someone’s life.

Also that’s kinda a defeatist attitude. Just because you have no talent at something doesn’t mean you can never be good at it. I don’t think anyone can say that Brolylegs was born with a talent for fighting games, yet he is still able to play at a top competitive level.

I just think of that as being better? By meaning, someone with archer is giving set knowledge of archer and has to grow from that. And his abilities and more likely to enhance or use his bow as channel for power.

While someone starts off at zero and builds from there. From effort probably can learn a few minor abilities for the bow, but not to the same extent of the [CLASS] holder.


Different starting points, but knowledge and experience can reach the same levels. Just a [CLASS] holder has a foundation at the start.
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But in a lot of stories it’s a prejudice or cultural tradition. Where like in are history we didn’t see the lower class able to do certain jobs. Or the rich not allowing their kids to do the ‘peasant’ jobs. They can do so, but it’s a cultural tradition or some what.

Also could help that [CLASS] holders at the starts have a better foundation, and have abilities to enhance their job or craft. Making people rather have a [CLASS] holder do said job or craft, then a non-related [CLASS] holder or in some cases no-class holder doing the same job/craft.

Which could eventually born a defeatist mindset or prejudice against learning anything other than your [CLASS]. Or prejudice against certain classes. When people constantly say this when you are growing, so you begin to think it.

 

[Notadate]

Agreed

I am translating this manga, called Nimotsu Mochi something something (check a translation group called Ksmanga). Dude got the most basic bitch ability ever, he can carries more weight than a normal person, like a pocket dimension ish bull shit but a weight limit. The party kicked him after they got a backpack that can carries more than him, then he found another person with a useless ability, but then when the two combo it's op (the author actually got a reasonable explanation i think)

It was... Fine, I guess. The party got a good reason to feed less mouth, and the combo thing actually make him not that op without discovering the other person

UNTIL the author decided, instead of making the old party like competitors, nemesis that's actually strong or something but just jerks. The author decided to say "so the luggage carrier MC actually buffed them by a lot and now he's gone y'all weak af"

Why do authors ruined their story not 10 chapters in?

Not making the old team evil or useless challenge, impossible

 

[2wordsperminute]

What about stories where everyone's lives and decisions are unknowingly fixed and the MC was given true free will?

Free guy?

 

[Paul_Tromba]

Free guy?

Perhaps but not what I was thinking about

 

[Daitengu]

Everyone has fundamental genetic differences, but in the scale of things it isn’t much. Cars and tanks are created for a specific purpose, humans are not. It’s dumb to compare the two. Sure genetics can help or hinder certain things, but it isn’t a be all end all that’s decided for you before you are even born.

I can’t recognize notes, but I was still able learn a few songs on the mandolin. Back when I was really into csgo I practiced reaction time every day on human benchmark and could see a noticeable improvement. A 5’5” man will never beat Usain Bolt’s record, but it doesn’t mean he can’t be fast as fuq boi.

Of course some people need to put in more effort than others this isn’t Harrison Bergeron. The thing in these fantasy stories is that you aren’t even allowed to put in any effort at all, it’s all decided for you. Sure you may suck at video games, but at least you can still play them and improve no matter how little that improvement may be. Often in these stories if you aren’t born with the perk you can never achieve it.

In these stories you can’t even get to a plateau of progress, because you can’t even start making progress to begin with,

So how is that any different than people in fantasy who have no mana which prevents them from being a mage.

What about the opposite? How many summon isekai stories are there where the summoned are forced/conned/begged into being the hero because they get a special skill?

What about superheroes? Everyone of them has something special while the normal people are stuck at the mercy of the powered. It's part of X-Men lore for humans to be jealous/fear/hate the powered.

I'm curious how far down the rabbit hole you are.