Reviews (Programmer Edition)

[DreamOfRen]

Hello,
I was thinking on ways that the review system could be "fixed" to prevent griefing and I'd like to share my ideas. What inspired this was a recent profile post and recounting my own experiences.

I had a reviewer once who checked out my stories. I got a 4.3 of 5. Not bad right?
Except... The reviewer said a ton of misleading and at times, outright lies about my fiction. It was almost as if they never read it at all. Even when I messaged them about it, they doubled down and refused to budge.

Only when confronted with their review and the facts side to side did they switch up stances. Also, it was only after this was revealed publicly for others to see.

In other words, they used a "good" review to justify their bias. This is a pretty common tactic for people who just want to snub others openly. The main issue is, you can't fight someone's "feelings" because they aren't rooted in logic or reality at times. What's more, bias doesn't always mean accurate (or inaccurate). To this end, this is what I'd like to propose.

Largely, it comes with 5 features.

1. Force raters to leave a written review with a necessary word count minimum. Urge them to explain their review and why.
2. Raters must choose 1 of 2 options when posting their review (Opinion Or Objective). This gets them to commit to declaring their review as one or the other. This should also be mandatory when it comes to leaving a review. This way, if they just felt like writing whatever they want, good or bad, we know. Likewise, if they leave an opinionated review but label it objective--it's obvious.
3. Allow authors and readers to mark reviews as "accurate" or "inaccurate" in response.
4. Allow authors and readers to also public vote on whether a review is (Opinion Or Objective). Steps 3 and 4 are to allow readers to make better informed decisions by not allowing any one party (authors or reviewers) to control the narrative.
5. Allow authors to directly reply back to a review (just one answer which can only be edited for each review).

Reasons I suggest this:

• Ideally all of these changes will serve the purpose of allowing readers themselves to discern whether a reviewer is just up to tomfoolery.
• This one is optional, but you could also give readers reviewer status "well known reviewer" for their work as well, and show the Opinion / Objective ratio on their profiles as such. This way readers would know if a reviewer leans towards Opinion or Objectivity.
• Currently the ability to rate and review is too one sided, as reviewers can leave any rating they want and they don't have to worry about..well...anything. The only real way to fix this is to create a system that at the least, examines the ratings and reviews.

I'm not sure how much work or how feasible this would be, and I may just be thinking too much like a programmer to "patch" problems. But this is what I came up with. Thoughts?

 

[Generic.Archdemon]

Would a short story work?

If you're asking, yes, I'm taking the opportunity to have some read my shit.

link me up.

 

[BenJepheneT]

link me up.

The Chicken Chicken Farmer

[Oneshot] A coyote truck driver loses his job as he and his colleagues suddenly get replaced by machines. Out of sentimentality, he requests for one last delivery; one more job behind the wheel. That's when he met the Chicken Chicken Farmer. Discord: https://discord.gg/aAuCwJkkrz

www.scribblehub.com

Lie, Again

[Oneshot] Lost in a field under a star-spangled sky, a woman searches for an answer. She meets a swing-set and there, four individuals who'd may have the answer she needs. She holds a love in her heart that's poison to her soul. She must break her secret to rid of...

www.scribblehub.com

Pick one

Go harsh on me brother

 

[Generic.Archdemon]

Go harsh on me brother

it probably won't be... since its purely objective. So is unlikely contains any implication of good and bad... well... we will find out

 

[BenJepheneT]

it probably won't be... since its purely objective. So is unlikely contains any implication of good and bad... well... we will find out

My ass is lubed and ready.

 

[DarkGodEM]

Hello,
I was thinking on ways that the review system could be "fixed" to prevent griefing and I'd like to share my ideas. What inspired this was a recent profile post and recounting my own experiences.

I had a reviewer once who checked out my stories. I got a 4.3 of 5. Not bad right?
Except... The reviewer said a ton of misleading and at times, outright lies about my fiction. It was almost as if they never read it at all. Even when I messaged them about it, they doubled down and refused to budge.

Only when confronted with their review and the facts side to side did they switch up stances. Also, it was only after this was revealed publicly for others to see.

In other words, they used a "good" review to justify their bias. This is a pretty common tactic for people who just want to snub others openly. The main issue is, you can't fight someone's "feelings" because they aren't rooted in logic or reality at times. What's more, bias doesn't always mean accurate (or inaccurate). To this end, this is what I'd like to propose.

Largely, it comes with 5 features.

1. Force raters to leave a written review with a necessary word count minimum. Urge them to explain their review and why.
2. Raters must choose 1 of 2 options when posting their review (Opinion Or Objective). This gets them to commit to declaring their review as one or the other. This should also be mandatory when it comes to leaving a review. This way, if they just felt like writing whatever they want, good or bad, we know. Likewise, if they leave an opinionated review but label it objective--it's obvious.
3. Allow authors and readers to mark reviews as "accurate" or "inaccurate" in response.
4. Allow authors and readers to also public vote on whether a review is (Opinion Or Objective). Steps 3 and 4 are to allow readers to make better informed decisions by not allowing any one party (authors or reviewers) to control the narrative.
5. Allow authors to directly reply back to a review (just one answer which can only be edited for each review).

Reasons I suggest this:

• Ideally all of these changes will serve the purpose of allowing readers themselves to discern whether a reviewer is just up to tomfoolery.
• This one is optional, but you could also give readers reviewer status "well known reviewer" for their work as well, and show the Opinion / Objective ratio on their profiles as such. This way readers would know if a reviewer leans towards Opinion or Objectivity.
• Currently the ability to rate and review is too one sided, as reviewers can leave any rating they want and they don't have to worry about..well...anything. The only real way to fix this is to create a system that at the least, examines the ratings and reviews.

I'm not sure how much work or how feasible this would be, and I may just be thinking too much like a programmer to "patch" problems. But this is what I came up with. Thoughts?

You should never let the Reviewed person have a say about a review. EVER.

HOWEVER. I would recommend force a written review and a minimum chapter reads for it.

 

[Devils.Advocate]

My ass is lubed and ready.

As promised!

This is my attempt to objectively review @BenJepheneT’s short story “Lie again.”
This will not be a spoiler-free review, but there will only be minor spoilers. The aim is to minimize subjective statements or to eliminate it completely…

Ok. Here we go.

===

The story is one that centres on the inner turmoils of a woman’s struggle to come to terms with a secret she hid from her partner, it deals with self-esteem, fear of rejection and the length of which one should or should not trust their spouse. (Objective)

The way the author chooses to tell the story is an intriguing one, that instead of tackling these themes with conventional secrets and baggage, such as “ I used to work as a …” or “I had broken a childhood…” the author chooses to use the plot elements of “born different” “secret identities” and “otherworldly entities”, to address the theme. (Objective)

Due to it being a different take on an old subject matter, readers that have seen this type of issue explored may find novelty in this story. (BTW WTF! TOO DIFFICULT! I had to write this line 4 times to not sound subjective, I could have just said, ”I thought it was a fun way of doing it” BUT I CAN’T!)

The story is told, as most short stories are, with a mystery, as the mystery is slowly unveiled, the revelation and “punch line” is delivered.

The structure of Mystery-> Reveal -> Punchline is a common and workable framework. But it is important to note that in this story the mystery part is set in a difficult to grasp dreamscape.

Stylistically the choice of opening the story so heavily ladened with unknowns did make the first part of the story difficult to follow. However, the choice of telling the story this way is not a superfluous choice but is chosen with sound reasoning. However, it did work against the reader’s ability to absorb the narrative.

Let me explain. The human mind holds a bunch of temporary information. That is why when someone is telling a story authors don’t need to answer all the questions right away. E.g magic, it works! How? Answer later.”

And as a tool, using a strong cohesive narrative can string together explanations more effectively in the mind of readers. That is why when people that play the game “remember 20 things”, they use the technique of “making up a story with all the things”.

The issue with the dream scene is that there are so many unknowns, where, how, who. In order to string all the unknowns of the dreamscape interaction together, it needed something tangible, not a long but one thing. But since the main character was not given a name, and I don’t believe she spoke words directly, but the reader was indirectly told what she said. It was hard to grasp her personality.

Sadly these little things that make it aesthetically work as a dreamscape also block the readers from absorbing the setting efficiently.
.
And since 80% of the story is set in this narrative of unstageable logic, readers can only make sense of the story near the end.

Even though it is a story that could be enjoyed by readers, the reader must work for the pay off with a certain amount of tenacity. If they could not push past the first… 5800 words of the un-tangible setting, they will not find the prize of the reveal.

In order to avoid stating this as a subjective point of view, I will illustrate it with a comparison of story structures.

The current state of the story.

Dream mystery 1 location and Setting
Dream mystery 2 entity
Dream mystery 3 nature of the entity
Dream mystery 4 one-sided dialogue
Dream mystery 5 temporal change
Dream mystery 6 hints about love relationships
Dream mystery 7 other entity
Dream explanation 1
Dream mystery 8 hinted anger, feelings
Dream explanation 2
Etc. etc
Real-world Revelation
Further Revelation

Because the story opens with the mystery by the time answers are made available the reader did either forgot the “question” or feel disassociated with them as well as the characters involved.

Let's say there is an alternative. The story opens with a half a small slice life of the woman

The framework becomes

RL mini introduction of a world (maybe she walks is having a convo with husband, jumps to)
Dream mysteries
RL Revelations (Wake up)
Further revelations

Having a “bookend” makes the story more cohesive without changing the tone or the aesthetics that makes it work.


A more radical restructuring would be:

To open with a Real-life scene cut to a dream, enter another real-life situation, without resolving it, jump back to the dream. By juxtapositioning the two different “places” It forces the reader to constantly try to reassess what the mystery is and how it is relevant.

As opposed to the current structure which relies on the reader’s need to finish the story and then perhaps re-read it.

-
The point I am trying to make is that the first 80% of the story is hard to read. Because of its structure and how the human mind generally works. The author could use a variant story structure to tell the story. But in all cases, it will weaken the aesthetics and thematic nature of the setting they have created.

(Here is the part that confused me, if it is subjective could I not say the same thing? “The start was a bit hard to follow, Ben could structure it differently, but if he does will weaken the dreamscape feel, BUT it will make it more accessible...” I had to jump through so many hoops to say the same thing!!! Or have what I said sill consider subjective even with “proof”)


Anyway, it’s done now….


====

Full-blown opinion now, It was a hard read, or I am just too slow… I had to take 3 run-ups to finish it and once I finished I read it twice more… and after writing this I read it once more... and I am is still wondering, “Did I understand this right?

Once I finished I enjoyed it, but at the same time... if I didn't have to do this review I am not sure I would have worked that hard to reach the reveal. But it could be purely a matter of taste… But it does remind me of art films that the more you read/watch it the better it is... (No it's not Stockholm)

It is in the fundamental nature or art the requires a second viewing, and that in itself is not a problem. I don't think.

So I think it's fine. And I think the bonus reveal in the end that added a bit of dramatic irony was a nice touch,

And while I think it is not a total polished piece, it was good work nonetheless. Stars, probably early 4 or late 3 from me. Tho I am very harsh with my stars...

harsh

While reviewing it this away does not feel harsh... it feels cold and devoid of "humanity" and is certainly not "nice"

(P.S Yes, I am reviewing my review as I am writing the review)

By the way, Full disclaimer, @BenJepheneT , I am not an expert.

 

[BenJepheneT]

Alright let me just say, the plan worked. Brilliantly. So much so that I got TWO reviews for my story. Granted, it might be the same guy, but this shit's like blowjobs: doesn't matter if it's the same chick, you're still getting two.

And as a form of response, I can't be as cohesive and full of content as @Devils.Advocate's response BUT I'll try my best.

Let this be A:

Full-blown opinion now, It was a hard read, or I am just too slow… I had to take 3 run-ups to finish it and once I finished I read it twice more… and after writing this I read it once more... and I am is still wondering, “Did I understand this right?

Once I finished I enjoyed it, but at the same time... if I didn't have to do this review I am not sure I would have worked that hard to reach the reveal. But it could be purely a matter of taste… But it does remind me of art films that the more you read/watch it the better it is... (No it's not Stockholm)

It is in the fundamental nature or art the requires a second viewing, and that in itself is not a problem. I don't think.

So I think it's fine. And I think the bonus reveal in the end that added a bit of dramatic irony was a nice touch,

And while I think it is not a total polished piece, it was good work nonetheless. Stars, probably early 4 or late 3 from me. Tho I am very harsh with my stars...

And let this be B:

The story is one that centres on the inner turmoils of a woman’s struggle to come to terms with a secret she hid from her partner, it deals with self-esteem, fear of rejection and the length of which one should or should not trust their spouse. (Objective)

The way the author chooses to tell the story is an intriguing one, that instead of tackling these themes with conventional secrets and baggage, such as “ I used to work as a …” or “I had broken a childhood…” the author chooses to use the plot elements of “born different” “secret identities” and “otherworldly entities”, to address the theme. (Objective)

Due to it being a different take on an old subject matter, readers that have seen this type of issue explored may find novelty in this story. (BTW WTF! TOO DIFFICULT! I had to write this line 4 times to not sound subjective, I could have just said, ”I thought it was a fun way of doing it” BUT I CAN’T!)

The story is told, as most short stories are, with a mystery, as the mystery is slowly unveiled, the revelation and “punch line” is delivered.

The structure of Mystery-> Reveal -> Punchline is a common and workable framework. But it is important to note that in this story the mystery part is set in a difficult to grasp dreamscape.

Stylistically the choice of opening the story so heavily ladened with unknowns did make the first part of the story difficult to follow. However, the choice of telling the story this way is not a superfluous choice but is chosen with sound reasoning. However, it did work against the reader’s ability to absorb the narrative.

Let me explain. The human mind holds a bunch of temporary information. That is why when someone is telling a story authors don’t need to answer all the questions right away. E.g magic, it works! How? Answer later.”

And as a tool, using a strong cohesive narrative can string together explanations more effectively in the mind of readers. That is why when people that play the game “remember 20 things”, they use the technique of “making up a story with all the things”.

The issue with the dream scene is that there are so many unknowns, where, how, who. In order to string all the unknowns of the dreamscape interaction together, it needed something tangible, not a long but one thing. But since the main character was not given a name, and I don’t believe she spoke words directly, but the reader was indirectly told what she said. It was hard to grasp her personality.

Sadly these little things that make it aesthetically work as a dreamscape also block the readers from absorbing the setting efficiently.
.
And since 80% of the story is set in this narrative of unstageable logic, readers can only make sense of the story near the end.

Even though it is a story that could be enjoyed by readers, the reader must work for the pay off with a certain amount of tenacity. If they could not push past the first… 5800 words of the un-tangible setting, they will not find the prize of the reveal.

In order to avoid stating this as a subjective point of view, I will illustrate it with a comparison of story structures.

The current state of the story.

Dream mystery 1 location and Setting
Dream mystery 2 entity
Dream mystery 3 nature of the entity
Dream mystery 4 one-sided dialogue
Dream mystery 5 temporal change
Dream mystery 6 hints about love relationships
Dream mystery 7 other entity
Dream explanation 1
Dream mystery 8 hinted anger, feelings
Dream explanation 2
Etc. etc
Real-world Revelation
Further Revelation

Because the story opens with the mystery by the time answers are made available the reader did either forgot the “question” or feel disassociated with them as well as the characters involved.

Let's say there is an alternative. The story opens with a half a small slice life of the woman

The framework becomes

RL mini introduction of a world (maybe she walks is having a convo with husband, jumps to)
Dream mysteries
RL Revelations (Wake up)
Further revelations

Having a “bookend” makes the story more cohesive without changing the tone or the aesthetics that makes it work.


A more radical restructuring would be:

To open with a Real-life scene cut to a dream, enter another real-life situation, without resolving it, jump back to the dream. By juxtapositioning the two different “places” It forces the reader to constantly try to reassess what the mystery is and how it is relevant.

As opposed to the current structure which relies on the reader’s need to finish the story and then perhaps re-read it.

-
The point I am trying to make is that the first 80% of the story is hard to read. Because of its structure and how the human mind generally works. The author could use a variant story structure to tell the story. But in all cases, it will weaken the aesthetics and thematic nature of the setting they have created.

(Here is the part that confused me, if it is subjective could I not say the same thing? “The start was a bit hard to follow, Ben could structure it differently, but if he does will weaken the dreamscape feel, BUT it will make it more accessible...” I had to jump through so many hoops to say the same thing!!! Or have what I said sill consider subjective even with “proof”)

I enjoyed reading A much more than I enjoyed B, but B gave me a much more in-depth analysis, judging my story structure and how I balanced cohesion and atmosphere/aesthetics. I learned a thing or two from the review, and it definitely showed me new ways I could've gone about writing that particular plot.

(I still think my current story structure is the most suitable. By itself, yes, it could've been better, reader agency wise and everything. But this short story is supposed to be part of a major series I'm working on, so I have reasons for not revealing much about the real world and keeping shit personal.)

But here's the thing: I would've just thrown this story to an accountant and have her divvy up the story like sandwiches. In other words; that ain't a review, that's an analysis.

Yes, I'm here to improve my craft and skills, but I keep a good distinction between that and my feedback. The whole point of a review isn't to just dissect it like a frog but to also give their honest, emotional thoughts to a work. You'd definitely come across similar aspects between two story that just can't seem to objectively explained why one did better than the other.

Look, I suck at objectivity so I'll explain this the best way I can: Dead Rising 3 is the most shallow and repetitive game I've ever played. The combat amounts to nothing more than mashing heavy attack and pressing Ctrl whenever you see an attack. With a gun, it gets even more mindless; just keep jogging and mashing Mouse 1. The story has plot holes amounting to the dozens with characters thinner than string cheese run over by a bulldozer.

^ that would be a purely """objective""" review

An actual review would explain why even with all that, I still love the shit out of Dead Rising 3 and why I put it above the first two. It somehow took the fun and joy of casual gameplay and streamlined the mechanics adequately so that it presented depth but not so much that it halts the pacing of the gameplay. Every character is thin but plays a troupe that somehow distracts players from the shallow, hole-ridden story that serves nothing more than to present players the best sandboxes to engage the gameplay in.

That ^ is the kind of reviews I'd like to see. A good balance between objective analysis and the reviewer's own spin towards the factors that makes the work.

I realize I'm not making much sense as of now so I'll just save you from the hassle and close my ramblings on this note: an objective review can tell you exactly why the Call of Duty franchise is so repetitive and brain-dead but can't explain why people still love it so much.

 

[Devils.Advocate]

I enjoyed reading A much more than I enjoyed B,

Writing the Objective side was exhausting, it's like trying to walk in a hallway that is just slightly shorter than you are... every step I was inundated with, now I can't say that without "proofing why". without making it "Truth" or "Oh no, I can't say this coz it just a feeling".

Like I want to say, "Ah, the grass and the feet bit, that's a bit it was weird wasn't it... like a weird amount of attention on it and it was done... twice? And after I understood the story, in the second or the 3rd reading, I wondered why it wasn't weirder?"

But... can it be bothered explaining myself? Am I right? I don't know, its just a gut thing. And can one even explain objectively when and how something is weird? DO I have to say why I thought was weird to be objective? So that its "truth" In the end, I just dropped it. I just deleted a whole chunk of it the objective "review",

In the end, I HAD to do the subjective review just to let out some steam, if I didn't I would have felt like I died a little inside.

No one in their right mind (Opinion, lol) will ever try and review this way, coz it stops being a review it is a deep reading, literary analysis, its work. and If someone thinks that is a review they are wrong!

not making much sense

I think because I went thru the process I know exactly what you mean.

 

[yansusustories]

Writing the Objective side was exhausting, it's like trying to walk in a hallway that is just slightly shorter than you are... every step I was inundated with, now I can't say that without "proofing why". without making it "Truth" or "Oh no, I can't say this coz it just a feeling".

In fact, reading the 'objective' side, I'm not even sure I'd agree that it is 100% objective. Like, just three instances I was thinking about while reading it:

The way the author chooses to tell the story is an intriguing one

Well, it's intriguing to you which you explain in the rest of the paragraph (and that rest, I'd agree, is objective) but stating 'it is an intriguing way to do this' makes it read like a generalization that should hold true for any and all readers which ... might not be the case. What you find intriguing is based on what you have read, what your interests are, etc., and could vastly differ for another reader. A fact would be 'The way the author chooses to tell the story is an intriguing one in my eyes' (nobody can counter that) but isn't that already an opinion again?

The same, I'd say, is true for the following two parts:

in a difficult to grasp dreamscape

the choice of opening the story so heavily ladened with unknowns did make the first part of the story difficult to follow

What is difficult for one reader might not be so difficult for another. Full disclosure: I have read quite a few novels that make use of dreams and dream-like experiences like providence or hallucinations, and have also read up on stuff like lucid dreaming and dream therapy and how they are used in real life. It might be because of that but I had no trouble with the dreamscape at all. It actually seemed really straightforward to me.

Now, we could probably say that it's implied that everything being said is just true for the reviewer themselves and makes no assumptions at all about other readers. But at what point does it stop being subjective then? If it is the experience of one reader but not another, doesn't that already make it subjective?

 

[Devils.Advocate]

@yansusustories
I know right. And reading the "objective" review I see how I tried to brute force it... like halfway, I started to doubt, wondered if I am doing it right and began to see it... and tried to U-turn and got whiplash

That was what lead to the long examples, I took the subjective opinion and tried to disguise it as objective with "Proof" hoped that it would just work out.

That is why there the whole Temporary Memory capacity thing, I thought "if that is a fact... so human can't remember too many things (Tenuously linked to unanswered question), surely I can argue that the first 50 to 80% of the story was hard to read right?

I also feel its a weak line of proof

Do you know what's funny?

I am a strong advocate of absurdist ideologies, (some of it anyway)... it's kinda ironic that I believe so deeply that nothing has fixed meanings, tried so desperately to write something that claims that there is a "continuous" or "consensus" truth in the world,

hahaha. (laughs bitterly...)

il||li ＿|￣|○ il||l

 

[yansusustories]

@yansusustories
I know right. And reading the "objective" review I see how I tried to brute force it... like halfway, I started to doubt, wondered if I am doing it right and began to see it... and tried to U-turn and got whiplash

That was what lead to the long examples, I took the subjective opinion and tried to disguise it as objective with "Proof" hoped that it would just work out.

That is why there the whole Temporary Memory capacity thing, I thought "if that is a fact... so human can't remember too many things (Tenuously linked to unanswered question), surely I can argue that the first 50 to 80% of the story was hard to read right?

I also feel its a weak line of proof

Do you know what's funny?

I am a strong advocate of absurdist ideologies, (some of it anyway)... it's kinda ironic that I believe so deeply that nothing has fixed meanings, tried so desperately to write something that claims that there is a "continuous" or "consensus" truth in the world,

hahaha. (laughs bitterly...)

il||li ＿|￣|○ il||l

I don't know if you've seen this post back then: https://forum.scribblehub.com/threads/constructive-criticism-does-not-exist.2551/
We were talking about constructive criticism, what it is, how it should look like, and whether it's something we should do, or if it is one giant barrel of bullshit. I think your 'objective' review actually got pretty close to what I think constructive criticism should look like (e.g. reactions explained based on examples and suggestions of what the recipient would have liked better). I actually think that if it was merged with the subjective review part, this would have made for a lovely review that both readers and the author could have taken something away from.

In any case, to get back to the original question: I maintain that objective reviews are impossible without losing all value and turning into a summary. Instead of this, it might be better to have a guide on how reviews should or shouldn't be even though I guess almost nobody would bother to read it and comply.

 

[Queenfisher]

I don't know if you've seen this post back then: https://forum.scribblehub.com/threads/constructive-criticism-does-not-exist.2551/
We were talking about constructive criticism, what it is, how it should look like, and whether it's something we should do, or if it is one giant barrel of bullshit. I think your 'objective' review actually got pretty close to what I think constructive criticism should look like (e.g. reactions explained based on examples and suggestions of what the recipient would have liked better). I actually think that if it was merged with the subjective review part, this would have made for a lovely review that both readers and the author could have taken something away from.

In any case, to get back to the original question: I maintain that objective reviews are impossible without losing all value and turning into a summary. Instead of this, it might be better to have a guide on how reviews should or shouldn't be even though I guess almost nobody would bother to read it and comply.

Obviously, I'd agree with that, te-he ^^. But I think a review that would come closest to being objective in a human perception would be... like, written entirely in conditional tense, maybe?

Anyway, the only truly objective way to do it would be to provide numbers, or something that can be measured, on at least some kind of a scale. Or a classification of species.

But for that, we need to define our classification method first and this classification of "lit" species would also probably have scales or spectra binding them together. I.e. some measurement would be in order.

Actually -- when someone is trying to objectively review a story, what would be the main criterion they measure its success on?

@Devils.Advocate

I did not see many criteria that you used, but now I am interested. You seemed to reference "clarity/ease of reading" as one because you kept elaborating on it. What about other criteria? I saw you mentioned "intriguing" and "enjoyment" somewhere as well... What would you use as the main metric of success?

 

[yansusustories]

Actually -- when someone is trying to objectively review a story, what would be the main criterion they measure its success on?

@Devils.Advocate

I did not see many criteria that you used, but now I am interested. You seemed to reference "clarity/ease of reading" as one because you kept elaborating on it. What about other criteria? I saw you mentioned "intriguing" and "enjoyment" somewhere as well... What would you use as the main metric of success?

I think the really funny thing (and the reason why I've disagreed with the whole idea from the get-go) is that everybody will have their own idea of what that success should be measured by and how to measure it on the scales. Because we are inherently biased since we have our own preferences, we'll come up not only with different criteria but also weigh those differently against each other. Like, even if we took the 'clarity' idea and had a scale from 1 to 5, we could all rate it differently. If we wanted to measure something objectively, we'd really need accurate statistics on something, and ... I feel like that's far past what a review is supposed to be. Far, far past that point

 

[Queenfisher]

I feel like that's far past what a review is supposed to be.

Review = for potential readers, at least in how most people prefer to use this word, I hear. It's more of a "Do I recommend it for anyone to read or no?".

I'd say, as a potential reader of @Devils.Advocate 's review, I found it useful, albeit not objective by any means. Regardless of the "objective" or the "subjective" review -- I got the same exact information. I see no real difference between the OBJ and SUBJ reviews, honestly.

But if it was trying to be more objective, it failed -- as it was not academic enough. There were no criteria used, no credentials of the reviewer, no comparison with which to gauge their perceptions.

If we want to try and approximate an ~objective review, we have to approach this with these goals in mind. I am not trying to defend the desire to write "objective" reviews -- but merely trying to define what it can possibly be.

Because while I believe it won't be useful to anyone ever (and this thread is wrong for suggesting them here), I still think it can be done.

And since @Devils.Advocate is the one who is our lab mouse at the moment, I wanted to ask them a few questions to find out what methods they used and how.

Like, I am merely theorizing. As per usual, you know me -___________-.

I think the really funny thing (and the reason why I've disagreed with the whole idea from the get-go) is that everybody will have their own idea of what that success should be measured by and how to measure it on the scales. Because we are inherently biased since we have our own preferences, we'll come up not only with different criteria but also weigh those differently against each other. Like, even if we took the 'clarity' idea and had a scale from 1 to 5, we could all rate it differently. If we wanted to measure something objectively, we'd really need accurate statistics on something, and ... I feel like that's far past what a review is supposed to be. Far, far past that point

It's interesting to me that while Devils.Advocate cannot be objective because of the human nature -- I feel like they are the only person who can be somewhat objective about their own perceptions. So my question wasn't -- what can you say about the story objectively? But rather -- what can you say about your methods of analyzing the story, objectively?

Was it "I just read it to check out", "I read it to impress people", "I read it because I promised", "I read it because I genuinely enjoy doing that", etc.? Trying to make an objective review, to me, is not only listing and analyzing what's in the story -- but also analyzing what is the instrument used to view the story through. I.e. the reader. Actually, this instrument's capacities and features would be much more useful to me for accessing the review's utility than anything inside the actual review,╮ (. ❛ ᴗ ❛.) ╭.

I believe @Devils.Advocate can make a more or less objective claim about their own success measure of the story (literally, they are the only one who can. Nobody else has access to that black box). I am only intrigued which metric they would use because that is the thing that would make their review useful for me -- a potential reader.

Does the story sink due to the lack of clarity? What benchmarks does @Devils.Advocate use for measuring this criterion?

What would be the example of a story on the highest level of success in this criterion (for Devils.Advocate) and what would be on the lowest? Where would Ben's story place on that scale?

_________________________

@yansusustories

I do not mind a bit of theorizing about objectivity in research, really.

The thing is -- even such "objective" things as perceptions of shape, color, measurements of distance, temperature, taste cannot be 100% objectively measured due to reaction-time discrepancies (nerve differences). We only approximate. Likewise, classifying all dandelions as dandelions is hard because there are no truly "perfect" dandelions in the wilds, . There are fluctuations ==> approximations.

The problem of objectivity in this thread, as always, is about how to classify the so-called objective methods used:

-- the measured one is quantitative problem (we do not have resources to gauge all reactions human brains make when interacting with stories atm, so this method is out of the question);

-- the categories into which these measurements will eventually go -- is the qualitative problem.

My question to @Devils.Advocate is to try and address the qualitative one first, then try to approximate his measurements in it with whatever tools we have at hand.

If it's not very objective at first? No matter. Nothing was, for the majority of human history ^^. I am interested in theories, so far.

Even Linnaeus classification of species is not a perfectly objective way to categorize living things. But as a model, it works because we cannot make a perfectly objective one and it's crazy useful. We theorize and wait for our theories to be disproven. For instance, the first time I heard about Isaac's Newton measurement of temperatures, I was... flabbergasted.

The genius of all humanity, Newton, had such values in it as --

the heat at midday about the month of July

heat of bodies that can barely be seen glowing at night

the greatest heat of a bath which one can endure for some time when the hand is dipped in and is kept in constant movement

....

Yep, that was the first temperature scale ever thought up. Bad? Yes, very. But nonetheless scientific, or at least approaching one with the meager instruments at hand at the time.

Qualitative -- comes first. Quantitative can come 10000 years later as long as the qualitative exists already.

The thing about temperature scales and their objectivity is -- most people nowadays complain about Fahrenheit and how it sucks. While Celsius, used by the majority of people is also not the most objective one either. But does that stop people from using and succeeding in their measurements with both Fahrenheit and Celsius?

Thank god we do not use Newton's scale, lol. But I bet for a short while when it was the only system in existence, even it was pretty useful to many.

So, as long as we define whatever criteria and categories to measure at least some values in the story -- we can have a working (a badly-working, probably) -- but more or less """"objective"""" review, provided all the classifications and metrics inside it are explained and defined appropriately.

All I was saying is that @Devils.Advocate did't provide them yet. ╮ (. ❛ ᴗ ❛.) ╭ And I wanna see them now!

 

[Devils.Advocate]

Actually -- when someone is trying to objectively review a story, what would be the main criterion they measure its success on?

Interesting to think about. Personally right? Definitely personally right? Not a truth Nor do I believe I am correct. So I will unpack my thoughts

I somewhat subscribe to Barthes death of the author, not religiously, but I DO accept that once media is created, creation's interpretation by the audiences is beyond the creator's control... TO SOME DEGREE!

But the author intent exists (and again not always, there are works that I am tempted to call derivative because it is not made with any purpose only to mimic other works, these are often observed as Cliched unoriginal, and even then I rarely if ever label unoriginal as "bad").

An author might say, I want people to be.... saddens by this part, aroused by this, excited by this. Or more complex goals, I want the reader to understand the grief I felt when I watched my mother died and through the novel's the tragic end of the Dragon and the dragon rider.
Or I want to highlight my disappointment with society thru etc etc.... or more pleasure-driven goals of I want the reader to imagine life loved by many... etc etc

My measure of success is how effectively the storytelling techniques used by the author deliver their intent to the reader.

So when people present me with something and ask me to give feedback, I don't just read the work, I had to read the person. I ask the writer, what are you trying to do? Why is this scene here?

So in @BenJepheneT 's case, I made the leap that they wanted the book to be original, intriguing to be enjoyable, So I assessed that.

Accessibility is a common desire of a book because if hard to read one would get fewer readers. BUT that assumption is more dangerous since some works like Ben's story would rather stick to its guns for thematic reasons at the cost of ease of access, and that does not make it bad at all.

So that is why after unpacking how the scenes work on the short story and what effect it created If I told Benj this is how I felt. and he goes, Yeah, that is how I want you to feel, then yeah he would be 5/5.

And that is also what no author will ever get 5/5 in my book, no one can every perfectly deliver their intent. No one knows how the reader will consume their text.

Does the story sink due to the lack of clarity? What benchmarks does @Devils.Advocate use for measuring this criterion?

So first to make it clear I do have a star system that is entirely independent of anything... so when I say

Stars, probably early 4 or late 3 from me. Tho I am very harsh with my stars...

Simple yes or no
1 point - made an effort and wrote something
1 point - has a beginning middle and end (Most WN has no end)
1 point - Technically coherent
1 point - I like it
1 point - it is Flawless work likes pf which I have never experience nor likely to ever will again

In my star system, it is quite easy to hit 3 or 4 but almost never a 5.


Soo.... my critiques and feedback i imagine are always been a Qualitative assessment of the aforementioned author intent and control
...
So to sum up my benchmark.. it's just a bunch of "yes or no"s
Why did you write that scene?
Did it work?
Yes- success
Yes, but people are also experiencing other things I didn't realize I put in - Gray area
No, but something better happened, people started cosplaying and shipping the two characters... - Gray area...
no - try again, change it