So making a magic system and want help.

[Esper]

I have been writing a story and planned on just stealing a magic system that fits with my ideas, I know a villain's act but that's how I roll, but since there was nothing, I started writing a brand-new system and want help refining it... it isn't complete at this point, but I want outsider views on how it is coming along. to those who wish to help I will be putting it in a spoiler tag as it may get long.

Spoiler

Rings and their uses.

• Single Rings are for containing mana for a spell.
  
  Single Rings are often found near the center of a spell circle, if instructions are given for distributing mana, they are found within a Single Ring structure. Single Rings can be used in conjunction with one another and are often the most unstable when near another Single Ring. Complex spell circles can find a Single Ring has become a Double Ring quickly leading to dangerous outcomes for all involved. Mages often use more than one Single Ring, or an Expulsion Ring in case a Single Ring was tainted in some way.
  
  
• Double Rings are for collecting and expelling mana for spells. These are most often used to expel mana to create an effect, however, can be used in more complex spells to collect mana in the air.
  
  
• Expulsion Rings: these Double Rings are filled with instructions to create an effect using mana poured into them. They are found to be the most useful rings. Not only used in the effect, but in regulation and control of a spell, and are protection within more complex circles. If implemented into a spell too early an Expulsion Ring can become a ticking timebomb. Best case, the mage has a haywire spell. Worst case, a mage can be drained of all their mana.
  
  
• Collection Rings: these Double Rings are empty and are used to collect mana floating in the air to supplement the user’s mana. Like an Expulsion Ring this is a common ring for those worried about Single Ring stability. Used not just to stop mana drain, but also to regulate excess mana lose. Complex circles have more than one such ring as even an experienced mage can have trouble with the mana expense. If implemented incorrectly, and with no instructions leading away from them, a Collection Ring can quickly become dangerous; sucking mana in the air and starving a mages regenerative ability.

Special Cases:
There is a set of special case rings. Though they are marginally thicker than normal rings, due to them having distinct properties, these rings may be difficult to recognize.

• Purifying Rings: These rings could be mistaken for Double Rings because they are marginally thicker. Because of the rampant misidentification forms of this ring have instructions to help inform a reader of its effect. Purifying Rings, as the name suggests, purify mana increasing efficiency in certain points of the circle, amplifying or nullifying effects.
  
  
• Inhibitor Rings: These rings could be mistaken for Single Rings because they are marginally thicker. Inhibitor Rings, as the name suggests, inhibit mana flow to certain points while giving structure to others.

Illustration of Complex magic circle inlay. (Fig 1.)

One will see this is a multi-stage spell, using a Single Ring as the base, a Purifying Ring and Inhibitor Line (See Mage Lines for more.). This array is filled with instructions and has a Sigil (See Sigil Marks for more), with the arrangement one can tell this is a containment array, for a lesser mana spirit.

Illustration of Complex magic circle instruction Ring. (Fig 2.)

Used most often within higher level magic circle arrays, an instruction circle is solely dedicated to managing aspects of the array; as in figure 2, Inhibitor Rings and Lines. We have lost most information on the language used within the array and cannot replicate it. However, we understand the purpose of this and many other rings in the full array.

Thanks to those willing to help!

 

[Zirrboy]

First big question is for what kind of story this system is.
What you have now is very technical and would thus work best in a story that focuses on the magic.
For a plot that revolves around people doing things with magic, limits and use cases would be more relevant

 

[Esper]

The story does focus on magic somewhat, it is mainly supposed to be a slice of life like story with monsters as a conflict piece. hope that helps give a idea? the main limits would be mental ability, casting time, and mana. those are abilities that can be trained of course, but would be low since it isn't conflict based.

 

[Zirrboy]

The story does focus on magic somewhat, it is mainly supposed to be a slice of life like story with monsters as a conflict piece. hope that helps give a idea? the main limits would be mental ability, casting time, and mana. those are abilities that can be trained of course, but would be low since it isn't conflict based.

I might be wrong, but at a glance, this doesn't seem like it'd need those details in a manner that can't simply be replaced by something else with no change in function.

 

[rain-090]

What is your story called?

 

[Silver_Sky]

Seems way to complicated for what it's for. If you want something for slice go for something like a magic tree, you can't make something like that intricate as you go but it doesn't demand focus. And this magic system you made can be built upon in a magic focus story.

 

[CarburetorThompson]

I never really care to explain a magic system, and thus I never really make it too in-depth. If you do that be careful not to explain too little though or too much that things don’t make sense. I prefer it this way because it is easier to be more creative and you don’t restrict your character’s actions, with a system you may have created before you even finished writing the story. You just have to be careful in making certain reveals feel earned and not pulled out of your ass.

 

[Esper]

What is your story called?

I prefer not to promote myself. however since I'm unsure if this will help or hinder I shall provide, it's called " my yuri 'curse' " and it already has a few chapters.

To the other comments (since I would rather address things as concisely as possible)

comments of 'too complex':

Spoiler

I figured, however I enjoy having something I can fall back on, as one of the other comments I plant to get to pointed out, "You just have to be careful in making certain reveals feel earned and not pulled out of your ass." and my prefer too do so with a system that has rules and a complete understanding. However I can see the concern for making it TO complex with ideas, as such if I can get some help with ideas to lower the complexity I will be sure to observer them

reply to comments of 'doesn't fit':

Spoiler

Really, I haven't written anything before, so if anything 'doesn't fit' I have no clue how to change such a thing. I do know I could cut it entirely but then it would take many parts away from the premise, as well as it was my intention to have magic in the first place. A lower complexity system would be preferred but I don't know how to do that without making it feel like I'm pulling things from nothing, which I despise in any story as much as the next person.

 

[rain-090]

How does casting the magic work? Do you have to set it up like a ritual, does ot just appear in the air or what?

 

[Esper]

How does casting the magic work? Do you have to set it up like a ritual, does ot just appear in the air or what?

Writing in the air, basically. That would be the easiest explanation since I would have to add more explanations for what more complex circles would be.

 

[Hadassah]

I think you have the basis for something that might work. People love magic systems that are clear and concise, and with obvious rules.

So, that in mind, you might try setting up magic along two axis: Number of Rings vs Magic type

From what I understand, you have two rings do a lot of things, but I’d do something like this:

One ring- stasis.
Two rings- absorb
Three rings- expel

and given the types of magic I see here, you got at least : Purity and maybe energy/mana? Not sure what else you plan to play with.

so in this case:
One ring/purity - maintain current purity, create a holy ground.
Two rings/purity- imbue purity into objects, like holy water, or cleanse objects
Three rings/purity - remove purification/holy energy that might impact more complicated spells

One ring/ energy- energy shield from attacks, inhibitor ring
Two rings/ energy- suck mana from the air, collection ring
Three rings/ energy - evoking/attack energy and so on.

This sort of makes static rules that people can follow. Also the fact that “attack” three ring spells are ‘harder’ than defense and control magic.

It might make for a good explanation as to why it’s mostly a human vs monsters world, not human vs human (because defense is ultimately easier because of fewer rings). Keeps things more slice of life.

 

[Esper]

I think you have the basis for something that might work. People love magic systems that are clear and concise, and with obvious rules.

So, that in mind, you might try setting up magic along two axis: Number of Rings vs Magic type

From what I understand, you have two rings do a lot of things, but I’d do something like this:

One ring- stasis.
Two rings- absorb
Three rings- expel

and given the types of magic I see here, you got at least : Purity and maybe energy/mana? Not sure what else you plan to play with.

so in this case:
One ring/purity - maintain current purity, create a holy ground.
Two rings/purity- imbue purity into objects, like holy water, or cleanse objects
Three rings/purity - remove purification/holy energy that might impact more complicated spells

One ring/ energy- energy shield from attacks, inhibitor ring
Two rings/ energy- suck mana from the air, collection ring
Three rings/ energy - evoking/attack energy and so on.

This sort of makes static rules that people can follow. Also the fact that “attack” three ring spells are ‘harder’ than defense and control magic.

It might make for a good explanation as to why it’s mostly a human vs monsters world, not human vs human (because defense is ultimately easier because of fewer rings). Keeps things more slice of life.

So yes I agree whole heartedly with the obvious rules part, clear and concise as well though I conceded those at the start understanding how complex manipulating the world in a way only magic could would lead to problems in the future.

Another aspect I understand however will forcibly go against is magic 'types' as it would be a struggle balancing those. The original idea was based on "you can do anything, but your body, mana around you, and the mana your opponent is using must be considered." since it would make sense why mages are very knowledgeable and must be trained rather then finding a kid on the street messing with stuff and coming out fine and knowing how to blow up half the town.

The ring system was to set standards that can explain both a fire spell and a ice spell looking similar but working in fundamentally different fashions on a physics scale (Ie. thermal energies being changed in ways, or using pure mana, and so on.), adding to it stuff like swapping circles or instructions would allow for snap changes while in combat, making dynamic changes possible in writing.

I like the idea of three rings, but keeping track of more then two types of rings AND having to identify while writing how they appear would become maddening to this already madness level system. On the point of why human v monster and not human v human is actually already explained away, since the world was MADE to allow for slice of life and nothing else, (ie. it was made for the MC to fall in love even though they had been apathetic to the idea. Monsters were made to have "my hero!" moments while making the world around feel alive and allow for civilizations to develop in specific ways, with some godly meddling.)

for mods reading this:

Spoiler

Sorry for double posting so much, I hope it is okay as the point of this was to discuss my system, but if it isn't okay then tell me so and I shall stop.

 

[Hadassah]

F

So yes I agree whole heartedly with the obvious rules part, clear and concise as well though I conceded those at the start understanding how complex manipulating the world in a way only magic could would lead to problems in the future.

Fair enough. Sounds like you have your magic system exactly how you like it. Hope you do get the help you are looking for though. You might need to rephrase the question for us.

 

[Esper]

F

Fair enough. Sounds like you have your magic system exactly how you like it. Hope you do get the help you are looking for though. You might need to rephrase the question for us.

True, I do have something I like, but I do need help refining it. Making things more legible or for something that is unecessary, in the context of a full magic system, to be cut out. The purpose was, originally, so I have rules that "make sense" and are not random and unthought out.

I hope this clarifies, I really don't know how else to describe my situation other than I need help and a outside view.

 

[autumnveir]

You want to know good magic systems? I dunno, I'm not a magic system enthusiast and if I see a good one, I'll completely ignore it just as how we conveniently ignore lighting and sounds in performance acts despite being one of the important parts of it.

Bad magic systems, I know a lot. It's as if they only exist for the protagonist, only benefitting said protagonist. They're also full of holes and lacks depth, even with the complexity the author provided from the infodump. For some reason, everyone also becomes stupid that they didn't noticed the exploit that the protagonist manages to find in a single chapter.

 

[Hadassah]

True, I do have something I like, but I do need help refining it. Making things more legible or for something that is unecessary, in the context of a full magic system, to be cut out. The purpose was, originally, so I have rules that "make sense" and are not random and unthought out.

I hope this clarifies, I really don't know how else to describe my situation other than I need help and a outside view.

Honestly, if you don’t plan on making clean simple rules that make sense, I wouldn’t bother with worrying about if the rules make sense or not. The more you spend trying to explain a magic system who’s rules are ultimately “it is like this because I thought that made sense” is only going to make sense to you.

The deeper you go into the rules and regs and edge cases and special circles, oh and I haven’t even started on ovals and the four ring spells that can end worlds…. The longer you are not really spending on just telling the story. Especially if you have one or two characters trying to convey it to a person who doesn’t know the rules. It might seem like it makes one character appear like they are “smart” when really to many readers it just comes off as “the author wanted to make another rule, and needed their rules lawyer mouthpiece character to explain it before doing something new”.

These characters can work, sure. Hermoine from that wretched Harry Potter series is an example. And if you want to go that route, you don’t need advice from us. It’s your world, go paint it

—
alternatively, just don’t waste the audience’s time explaining every edge case outside of a single simple sentence. Dr Strange doesn’t tell everyone how each of his ring lights contains a channel ring, a focusing ring, a morb-containment ring, and a dislocation ring to teleport the apple into his hand.

“How’s you do that, Mister Strange?”
“I created a wormhole dimension where the apple fell in one end and onto my hand. And it’s Dr. Strange”

 

[TheEldritchGod]

You need to know how it works, not the audience. However, I would suggest you consider how "hard" the system is.
Is it just a substitute for technology? Or is it 'what you think happens'? Your cultivation type stories harp up the 'hard' aspect. The problem is when it just becomes wish fufillment.

LIMITS ARE WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

Stop focusing on what you can do and focus on what it CAN'T.

I was reading this one Manga where the MC can basically use any form of elemental magic, has a large mana pool and magic works without training and she just has to PICTURE what happens. She creates firestorms, blizzards, roasts entire dungeon levels...

In effect, the magic system is simple, understandable, and utterly removes any tension or stakes. The MC can wipe out entire ARMIES from what I read, why should I worry about the MC at all? I have no idea what she can't do. She can do anything. So, I don't care.

From what you wrote, what is stopping me from making a ring that creates water with hydrogen that has three extra neutrons, then separates it from the oxygen with lightning magic, compresses it with gravity magic, and makes a FUSION NUKE so I can point at cities and watch them go WOOSH. Then make a forcefield to protect myself and go fly into space, grab the moon and hit the villain with it?

What can everyone do? What can the MC do? What are the limits on everyone? What are the limits on the MC?

For example, I went with the classic 4 elements, with light and darkness magic added, but no real dark magic users present. They don't apply to the story. There are no multiple element users.

The MC is water user, but with modern knowledge, so he keeps pushing the limits of what you can do with water magic into areas that nobody else can, because they don't know it's possible. But there is also the limit of how much mana you have, but also what happens when you USE the mana.

Mana used becomes 'poisonous' and clogs your body. Having open mana channels to increase flow and help you body collect and mana and expel 'used mana' is what's important. I went with mana cores for humans, but they are not physical. Demons have actual physical stones as their magic cores, so this is a weak spot. They have a much greater range, but they are also 'fixed' in the magic they can do. There are ways around this, to grow, but it involves cannibalism.

Elves have the greatest level of magical 'freedom', but they have externalized mana cores that manifest as familiars that can be killed, but this also externalizes their mana, so they don't get mana poisoning. Dwarves have no cores, but they do have extra 'thick' mana channels, so they have learned how to craft magic items. The MC is half human, half dwarf, so he has extra chunky mana channels and a mana core.

Then he wanted more power, he figured he needed more mana circulation. So he took ground up demon cores and tattooed more mana channels into his body so he turned his magic from a lymphatic system, to a cardio-vascular type system.

Everyone uses mana circles, but the MC is an eletrical engineer, so he sees the circles as circut diagrams and works on making more effective versions of what everyone else uses.

See how I just slowly build on what is before it in layers so the audience goes, "Ah. He is increasing in power. He had a stagnant mana system, but he overcharged it. When he did the same thing to his friend, his friend almost died from mana poisoning. I get the concept of 'overclocking' your mana core. I can see how a water user would figure out how to make ice, but it costs more mana, so most people cannot do it.

Oh, there are other forms of ice? Ice-7 is basically ice at 50k atmospheres. Man, with enough mana the MC could make that. It wiped him out to make explosive ice? Makes sense. He figures out how to make more effective magic circles so he can now make the Ice-7 darts with less mana and more controlled? I see. So doing magic 'on the fly' or working out the 'circuts' ahead of time have different mana costs. Makes sense.

THAT is what you should do. The reader will glaze over the details as long as you stick within your LIMITS. Then when you exceed your limits, people can go, "Man, would I be willing to directly tattoo the crap out of my ENTIRE BODY just to overcharge my magic, instead of, "THE MC LEVELED UP AND HAS MOAR POWERZ!"

That answer your question?

 

[Esper]

That answer your question?

For the most part, yes. I myself am someone who, when my brother began making a mathematical based Magic system (Ms cause I'm gonna type that a lot), I started asking stuff like. "What is stopping me from, let's say, putting any volume of water into someone's lungs, or someone's throat?"

after that he scrapped it, sad as I liked the premise, but ya know... not unexpected. "mana conversion" was getting to be ridiculous, and it wasn't worth it, and he was making it for fun rather than a story.

I have made a upgraded form of what is above, and have been thinking, since I added instruction based system of magic. The entire thing is that a mage is actually drawing the rings, not "I think this so it appears" not "magic work cause it work" and so on. their is acceptations, but every person can do it, and to that the STORY wouldn't fit villains willing to destroy the world, as it was made by gods as a "curse"; Also you have to work almost daily for long periods of time to get where you can do a ring with your thought, but it still costs mana, still cost some time and you have a limited amount you can have.

The MS I got going is a bit on the "writer keeps it around so they have rules" but still I understand the importance of making sure no one goes in and then walks out thinking, "well that doesn't make sense, they could have done X", at least not in a bad way of "that isn't just doesn't make the story fun"
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What can everyone do? What can the MC do? What are the limits on everyone? What are the limits on the MC?

These questions I shall try to answer:
What everyone can do:
Everyone can make rings
Any mage can write three rings within ten seconds, this is the human limit so anything further needs more time, which I think is a factor that most people will not like but if I make sure to keep consistent will not seem as strange.
Any human can make a ring enchanted object, they do however need training from professionals for it to work fully, as certain materials have different mana resistances that need to be considered during enchanting.
Rings can only hold about three of the "Magic words", allowing for simple commands that I stole from Thuum.org and use similar to dragon tongue, cause it looks kind of magic like.
What can MC do:
They have a better imagination? Seriously that would be all I give my MC to stand out in the magic field, I don't plan to have magic be the for front of the story, maybe to make a scene look pretty or make a fight seem more interesting.
They used to be a fake magic nerd.
What are the limits:
Magic is limited by how much time, and mana, you can use freely. humans can write three rings in about ten seconds, that is with proper training and understanding of your spell, which any mage would have.
Humans, around the mid to early twenties, can make ten rings using their mana, teens about five to six, and seven if they are a prodigy.
Personal mana is what makes the rings therefore one must consider how much they use in the spell and how much for the rings. Ambiant magic is used as a supplement but with two mages can be drained quickly.

MCs limit:
They have a bit more mana than most, at seven rings while a teen

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I think that covers most stuff? If you have any more questions or want to just discuss this why don't we take it to PMs rather than necroing this by accidents (even though I'm unsure how to do that I don't want to take chances)