The term "Mary Sue & Gary Stu" is a major pet peeve of mine TBH

[ForestDweller]

Anti-sue, eh? Some have called my MC too much of a wreck to be enjoyable to read. Even though I feel it's more realistic that way if you're going to have a second chance story with a loser MC (my story is basically my take on Mushoku Tensei only with a more realistic protagonist).

 

[Localforeigner]

For my money, the most Mary Sue of all them all is Kvothe from Name of the Wind. Just awful.

Oh, god, this...yes! Never read the second book because of the first one's Mary Sueness.

 

[MadmanRB]

I am not sure, but it is sorta looking like you might have misunderstood my meaning of "rules of the universe?" If not, then it's fine. When I said "rules of the universe," I was talking about OUR universe, meaning these rules are not something that someone arbitrarily made up and persuading your way through it is not going to help you. It's one of those rules like gravity. There's nothing you can do to defy it. If someone seems to be defying one of the rules, they are actually not. They are just exploiting a secret piece of knowledge or using a special approach you may not know about. (Like magna rails seeming like they are defying gravity, but they really are still obeying the laws of physics.)

So, in order to seemingly break the rules, what's really going on there is the writer just knows what the rules are WAY better than you and is exploiting some form of advanced technique.

I am going to bring up the "Batman Pass" for the Mary Sue rule again here, because after discovering this myself it has become my new favorite thing.

Anyway, if you don't at least have a general idea about how you might intentionally create a batman pass, the advice I would give is becoming more aware of what the rules are before you play with fire.

Of course, I may be telling you nothing but things you already know here and this was all completely unnecessary. I just saw a strange wording, it could all just be my misinterpretation.

Ah, now I'm getting the sense of the disconnect.
You see I'm doing my universe building more from a Dungeons and Dragons approach rather than your typical storytelling approach.
Where my story is kind of like a science fiction version of the character class system you see in that type of story.
To use D&D examples well:
Ralph is my Paladin
Sunny is my Fighter
The Boxer is my Thief/rogue
And my final hero would technically fall into the ranger category (I guess, her character class is a little unusual as she has some traits in common with the thief/rogue class but not that much)
You see where I am getting at?
If you don't in DND each character class has its strengths and weakness such as the fighter is very strong and can use many armors and weapons... but they can't cast magic.
That's what I'm doing, I'm applying D&D rules here, I mean sure I have to tweak it to suit my universe as while technically Ralph is a Paladin in the DND universe, but he will later associate with one of my villains who I have a redemption arc for and a Paladin can't associate with evil characters. (though none of my villains are purely evil sans one, but that's another kettle of fish)
DND is often known for its very strict rule set, I have my rule set just as strict as I am trying to stay mostly grounded in my characters powers.
None of my characters can defy gravity, or lift mountains or any absurd power that doesn't seem to fit my setting.
And yes having psychic powers does fit into my universes rule set as other characters do have it just not everyone (It's like in Harry Potter not everyone can be a wizard), yes this does look like on the surface it's a power that could break things but no I think I can make it work as even if it's in my universe it too has strict rules and limitations.
None of my psychics can bend spoons with their mind for example.
I did this so that yes my characters could have these powers but have severe handicaps in one way or another much like DND does.
In DND a Thief/rogue cant learn magic, it's not in their character class.

I hope that cleared things up :D

 

[Jemini]

None of my characters can defy gravity, or lift mountains or any absurd power that doesn't seem to fit my setting.

Ok, I am beginning to get the sense that maybe English is not your first language? That, or maybe you might have what used to be called Aspbergers syndrome. Either way, it looks like my earlier suspicions were right. Whatever the cause may be, you are taking my analogies and demonstrative speech very literally.

My previous post was to say that when I was talking about "rules of the universe," I was talking about the IRL universe, not your in-story universe. What I mean is that the rules of writing are similar to the rules of physics. They are not something that someone made up, they are something that people discovered and are trying to do their best to explain.

What I meant by "defying gravity" was also an analogy that was talking about the rules of writing, not the rules of your in-story world. I was referring to defying the rules of writing as being similar to defying gravity. It is something that is just not possible. However, it is possible to create the illusion that you are doing so. If you understand the TRUE rules of writing set by the IRL universe better than the people who explained the close approximations of the rules of writing, then it's possible for you to find an exploit that seems to defy the known rules in a similar way to how a magnarail seems to defy gravity. (The "Batman Pass" that I keep referring to would be an example of an exploit in the rules that govern whether or not a character is a Mary Sue / Marty Stu, because Batman seems to defy every single rule and somehow get a pass even though he's pretty much a by-definition Marty Stu character. The reason he's not considered a Marty Stu is because he's taking advantage of one of those exploits in the rules of writing that require the writer to know the rules absurdly well in order to intentionally fit a character into.)

All of this stuff was in reference to the psychic stuff you were talking about for your Ralph character. It sounds to me like it's dangerously within Martu Stu territory just from what you are explaining to me. In response, I gave you one example from my knowledge about how to defy the standard rules.

I don't know for sure because I don't know your story world, you might have stumbled upon another exploit to the rules and I am not aware of it, but you talking about DnD mechanics here actually has me worried again. That's not going to be effective enough by itself to cover the writing elements that will have this psychic stuff looked down on by the readers.

Finding some way to work it into his story arc effectively will though. I gave you one comparatively easy method by which to do that. Make it so he's born with it and have him become a social outcast as a result. You don't have to use that one, but if you don't use my solution then you still need to be a bit more serious about it.

One of the bigger concerns I have is that the limitations you placed on his psychic abilities reek of intentional shackles on the character. Intentional shackles are effectively like you saying "hey, look! My character has a cool power but it has this, this, and this limitation! That means' he's not a Mary Sue!" The response you will get to that will almost always be, "no, he IS a Mary Sue." It is very similar to the old joke about how if you write an anti-pedophilia song, that's a very good way to make everyone think you are a pedophile. (I will help you out here, I'm not saying you or your character are pedophiles. That was another analogy. It is not to be taken literally.)

So, I have been seeing a lot of red "Marty Stu" flags around this character, and I'm trying to bring them to your attention. That's what's going on here. (I only bring this up because you specifically made this thread around understanding what makes a "Mary Sue" character and then you said your intention was trying to figure out how to "de-sue" your characters. So, from everything you have told us, this Ralph character has a lot of "Mary Sue" flags around him and so I was assuming that pointing them out and offering a "de-sue" suggestion was what you were wanting me to do.

I have a few other suggestions, but one of the first things that has to be done is to get rid of those very obvious "hey! This power is Ok because it's limited!" shackles. It may sound strange, but those limitations you put on those powers only puts this power under more scrutiny. The limitations you mentioned just feel way too out of place, and that creates a problem.

 

[MadmanRB]

Ok, I am beginning to get the sense that maybe English is not your first language? That, or maybe you might have what used to be called Aspbergers syndrome. Either way, it looks like my earlier suspicions were right. Whatever the cause may be, you are taking my analogies and demonstrative speech very literally.

The latter, I have Asperger's though a (mostly) high function variation of it on the spectrum.
So yes I take things literally now and then, the nature of the beast I'm afraid.

Edit:

Perhaps it's best to give a summary of how my character gains his abilities so that he doesn't come off as a Stu:

Now this power is actually foreshadowed in my first episode, after he gets knocked out Ralph Bunny has his first vision.
This was me playing with the dream trope a little.
However, I always try to make my dream sequences mean something, a major irk of many is that dream sequences have no meaning to the story and are only there for fluff.
Not here, as I use my dream sequences to tell a story and have them be major plot points, yes I don't do this all the time for all sequences, but I still try to tie it together with my story, so it's not as jarring.
Anyhow, I do have my main character question this and this ability at first seems to be nothing.
That is until he volunteers to be a test subject for an experiment and thus becomes a superhero.
But soon after this latent ability begins to awaken, and he starts to be able to sense when the villain will strike.
This power starts off small but grows as the story moves on.
Now my main character does try to learn how to use it but finds it difficult as he's unused to it.
To help him better control this unlocked power I have the person who turned him into a superhero give him what I call "the focus drive" as a way to assist this latent power.
This focus drive however does have a side effect in that while it helps him control this latent power it also enhances it thus the telepathy.
So in this way the telepathy isn't something he has out of the blue instead its probably something already in him but unlocked by the experiment.
I figured each power will be almost like a magic talisman in DND where it helps give my heroes their powers but like all talisman powers there is a price to pay or a limitation.
I am going to go with the limitation route as I do intend to have more than one telepath in my story but make sure I have strict rules for it so it doesnt break my universe.

I mean I do get the concerns here, stuff like telepathy are big large red flags I admit.
Is it a Sue trait? Perhaps but sue traits in on themselves are not bad it's when you combine them together is where issues start to come up.
And I do my best not to check off as many boxes as possible.

 

[TheTrinary]

Oh, god, this...yes! Never read the second book because of the first one's Mary Sueness.

I haven't read the second book either!

Have you read the Poppy War? The first act is pretty much the entire Name of the Wind shortened up except pretty good.

 

[LinXueLian]

Honestly for what I plopped down here Twilight is way worse in its writing

Whoa, whoa, I was kinda with the whole thing until I saw this.

I wouldn't really recommend ragging on someone else's work to feel better about your own, even on a comparative note. This especially if your works and characters aren't doing well themselves - it'll just make you look like a hypocrite as well as a person who can't take criticism but likes to criticize others. You're veering into that category - I figured I'd let you know if you didn't realize it.

There's a reason why Stephanie Meyer's works were successful. I'll agree that perhaps the technical aspects weren't very strong, but she truly knew her demographic well. You're not part of her target demographic, which was why you didn't like it. I'm not part of her targeted demographic either, which was why I didn't enjoy it myself - but looking at it objectively I could see why she was successful and which elements from her works worked and resonated with her audience.

You can either choose to trivialize her success or you can learn from it. I'd highly recommend doing the latter; it's very, very good data.

As for the rest of the discussion surrounding your characters......... yeah, I can kinda see why people have called them a Mary Sue or a Marty Stu.

They probably aren't, but what they are is that they've over-developed. From what I can see from your text wall about your characters, you seem to have hyper-focused on them and over-developed them - they stand out too much by having far too many attributes, leaving no breathing space for others to interpret them. To a regular, casual reader, this would read like a Mary Sue.

Mary Sues stick out like sore thumbs, which is generally why a lot of readers don't like them, male or female - as another user put it, they're disruptive. If your characters are sticking out more than the actual premise of your work, then...... yeah. They'd be pretty hard to enjoy from a reader's perspective.

I mean, it's fine if you're writing self-indulgently, for yourself. But at a glance, I wouldn't really call characters like you've written ones that are suited for current readers the age of 10 to 14. While it might work for someone of that age in, say, 1991 who's probably also a Sega or DC fan, it doesn't really work for the same demographics now. Young people have gotten complex, and while they're not necessarily harsh, they've gotten very discerning of their likes and dislikes.

If you're really interested in writing for 10-14 year olds, I'd highly recommend studying the trends surrounding them currently. Data from the 90's won't cover the kids of today. You may have "retained your childhood", but if it's one that's stuck in the 1990s or 1980s, then.... yeah, it's probably antiquated and no longer relatable. It's not a bad idea to modernize.

EDIT: One I've seen that works today (2020s) are the characters from "We Can Be Heroes" (both boys and girls around 12). The other is Disney's Elsa (12 year old females). For young boys around 12, I've seen that Ironman works.

 

[MadmanRB]

Anyhow, on topic if my character does read as a Sue that is unintentional.
But one must understand if my main character is a Sue so are his fellow superheroes as all of them have at least one trait that can make them a Sue.
One of my characters is rich, sue trait
An orphan, sue trait
Etc.

So yeah all my characters have at least one trait to them that ticks off one of the boxes in your Mary sue tests out there.

Also:

LinXueLian​

Yeah, I can get why they may read off as a Sue, but that's because I am only giving a base summary of the characters.
Not their histories, their loves, their hates etc.
I would be spoiling entire plot points otherwise :D
Superficial info can only do so much

All concerns are valid mind you but again in the hands of a good writer even a Mary sue can become a great character (the batman pass)
As admission time:
Yes I did make sues in the past on purpose but only to play with the notion and know what and what not to do, writing experiments to hone my character building skills. And even my sues who score high in the Sue tests still have something that can make people ignore they are a Sue by putting said sue through hell making people empathize with them more, I think these tests helped me become a better writer, so I can know what not to do.

 

[Localforeigner]

I haven't read the second book either!

Have you read the Poppy War? The first act is pretty much the entire Name of the Wind shortened up except pretty good.

I have not. I may have to check it out!

 

[TheTrinary]

I have not. I may have to check it out!

Oh, I should probably add a content warning on that recommendation then, for you and everyone else. All the warnings.

They Cormac McCarthy it and towards the end they use real accounts from the second Shino-Japenese war, and its um. . . a little Nc-17 in terms of content.

 

[Localforeigner]

Oh, I should probably add a content warning on that recommendation then, for you and everyone else. All the warnings.

They Cormac McCarthy it and towards the end they use real accounts from the second Shino-Japenese war, and its um. . . a little Nc-17 in terms of content.

Yikes! Okay, thanks for that.

 

[LinXueLian]

But one must understand if my main character is a Sue so are his fellow superheroes as all of them have at least one trait that can make them a Sue.
Yeah, I can get why they may read off as a Sue, but that's because I am only giving a base summary of the characters.

Mmm... well, in all honesty, I don't think effective characters require justification. They don't need to be compared to other people's characters to justify them either.

They're a little bit more dependent on their intended audience, imo.

A lot of people say that they can't stand Mary Sues - but here's the thing - it's not so much whether it's actually a Mary Sue or not - it's that scent of Special Snowflake that gets these readers really annoyed, for some reason.

In terms of new-age Sueness, that's really what it is, I think. It's probably due to an author's lack of social nuance or moderation - because, similarly, bland characters are also pretty ill-received. People who are too afraid to create Mary Sues by accident usually fall into this category. They end up creating very forgettable characters - a snore of a character, some call them.

People who don't write Mary Sues can be just as unsuccessful as those who do. Batman gets away with it because he's got a whole history in pop culture and nostalgia backing his character and existence. Newer writers don't have that to back them.

 

[bigbear51]

Being a Mary Sue is more than just being obnoxiously overpowered. There's also the whole, everyone around them liking them for little to no reason. And anyone that's against them is vilified for disliking them and/or is always in the wrong. Something that people might point out in something like a poorly made harem story, for example.

Goku gets crap for some of his decisions from guys like Piccolo during the Cell arc for having Gohan fight and Vegeta when he failed to save their sons from Buu. They were in the right even if things turned out okay for them in the end. And even then, Goku still died because of his inability to get Gohan to finish off Cell.

I also wouldn't really call Superman or Batman Mary Sues just because there are multiple incarnations of them with different story arcs and character flaws. Some are, but there are also plenty where they take losses or struggle with themselves and those around them that they have to overcome to succeed.

Also coming in to save the day, I've never considered that to be a trait of Mary Sues. If we're talking a story about fights between powerful major villain, I kind of expect the protagonist to be the one to win things for everyone. It's just that the difference between a story like that being interesting or boring is the journey they have to take to get there.

 

[Jemini]

If you're really interested in writing for 10-14 year olds, I'd highly recommend studying the trends surrounding them currently. Data from the 90's won't cover the kids of today. You may have "retained your childhood", but if it's one that's stuck in the 1990s or 1980s, then.... yeah, it's probably antiquated and no longer relatable. It's not a bad idea to modernize.

EDIT: One I've seen that works today (2020s) are the characters from "We Can Be Heroes" (both boys and girls around 12). The other is Disney's Elsa (12 year old females). For young boys around 12, I've seen that Ironman works.

Yeah, also might add some of the current-gen highest graphics video games to the list too. My 12 year old nephew is really into Monster Hunter World right now. My 14 year old nephew was one of those who were crazy into Fortnight a couple years ago.

My 10 year old niece is really into Among Us, and she's STUPID good at it too. If you play in a game that she's in, it doesn't matter whether she's the imposter or the crew mate. Whatever team she's on is 100% going to win unless she is eliminated early. She's that good, and it's 100% related to the crazy amount of social intelligence she has. (My sister and her husband are going to have their hands full when she gets into highschool. High EQ girls are always a problem.)

 

[MadmanRB]

Mmm... well, in all honesty, I don't think effective characters require justification. They don't need to be compared to other people's characters to justify them either.

They're a little bit more dependent on their intended audience, imo.

A lot of people say that they can't stand Mary Sues - but here's the thing - it's not so much whether it's actually a Mary Sue or not - it's that scent of Special Snowflake that gets these readers really annoyed, for some reason.

In terms of new-age Sueness, that's really what it is, I think. It's probably due to an author's lack of social nuance or moderation - because, similarly, bland characters are also pretty ill-received. People who are too afraid to create Mary Sues by accident usually fall into this category. They end up creating very forgettable characters - a snore of a character, some call them.

People who don't write Mary Sues can be just as unsuccessful as those who do. Batman gets away with it because he's got a whole history in pop culture and nostalgia backing his character and existence. Newer writers don't have that to back them.

Right if Batman was conceived today he would never get off the ground, neither would Iron Man.
Again sometimes you have to take a gamble you can't be moping around worried about creating a Sue and just write.
I personally feel as long as you know the term exists you are fine and so what if people call your character a Sue.
Personally I rather write a Mary sue than the typical anti sue, after all what sounds more fun to read about?

A: A character who can act for themselves, who has many friends and has superpowers and swoops in and saves the day.

VS

B: A character who can't act for themselves, a friendless loser with no social skills, no powers and can barely tie their shoes without needing help.

Yes the latter is more realistic, but man is it depressing and doesn't fit the setting of my universe.

I always try for something in between. I mean yes my characters have Sue traits... but all superheroes have at least one and most of them get a free pass.

 

[LinXueLian]

Yeah, also might add some of the current-gen highest graphics video games to the list too. My 12 year old nephew is really into Monster Hunter World right now. My 14 year old nephew was one of those who were crazy into Fortnight a couple years ago.

My 10 year old niece is really into Among Us, and she's STUPID good at it too. If you play in a game that she's in, it doesn't matter whether she's the imposter or the crew mate. Whatever team she's on is 100% going to win unless she is eliminated early. She's that good, and it's 100% related to the crazy amount of social intelligence she has. (My sister and her husband are going to have their hands full when she gets into highschool. High EQ girls are always a problem.)

Exactly! Their exposure to new age media probably is a factor. In general, I feel most people have evolved exponentially. Their environment is very different, and rich with everything.

Even the bookish kids - the ones we're writing for - have probably out-read us in terms of the classics we've had to read in school. Some have probably consumed the whole of Wikipedia - you can't pull wool over the eyes of kids like these. They're not stupid; they know when something's "lame" or "dumb".

I wouldn't really shrug off their intelligence were I a writer.

Ahaha! Yeah, high EQ girls tend to act out because they know they're socially intelligent. But I suppose it also depends on the person. If she's geared towards love and kindness, like some of the high EQ teen girls I know, they're actually really wonderful! They very readily help you out in charities, re-planting trees and helping out with old people, orphanages and animal shelters (and baking cupcakes, but they're smart enough to just want to decorate hahaha!!). Boys with high EQ are equally great too!

They don't complain and even I've learned a good number of things from them. They've got good ideas too, in terms of stuff like logistics and promotions. Modern-minded, not afraid to get their hands dirty to help others. Very brilliant people! I can only imagine what they'd grow up to be like.

 

[MadmanRB]

Well again I wasn't saying kids 10-14 were stupid, but still superheroes seem to still be popular within my demographic.
Again I think I can make this all work, yes some powers here and there seem left field, but I did try to make it feel natural to my universe without it seeming too Mary Sue.
Besides telepathy and psychic abilities are not unheard of in my universe but simply dismissed as insanity even by my main character who gets said powers, if its one thing I did for him is that he is a skeptic, and he doesn't like his power that much.
I mean will he use it? Sure if it means beating his villains, but it is something he will have to work on controlling and accepting.
I just did it for my MC as he needed another power to balance out my team, he's not the strongest, or the fastest nor can he cloak himself.
He's my teams brain, so I went with that.
Again it's not like he is the only member of his race that can do this as I intend to create more psychic powered beings in my universe and I picked him to introduce the concept in my universe.
That way when more psychic powered beings come into the story it's not such a shock.
I mean yes he is only one of two beings with this power at first, but you got to start somewhere.
By series end there will be at least 3 main characters with this ability and perhaps more we don't meet in the series, but I do intend on implying this notion.
One of these characters is my hero
Two will be villains like in the original trilogy of Star Wars
Again I will try to imply that yes his species can do this, just not everyone.
I am kind of doing the Harry Potter/ The force route where not everyone can use it, but there is nothing wrong with this kind of storytelling.
It worked for those series and I feel I can make it work here.