Trans characters and pronouns

avaseofpeonies

your cool weird auntie
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Hello, All! Long time lurker, first time poster, looking for some opinions.

In my story, I have a character who has presented as male up 'til now, but has just been revealed to the MC to be a trans woman. However, this character is firmly in the closet and not coming out anytime soon, and will therefore continue to publicly use masculine pronouns.

The narrative is third person, but from the MC's singular POV, and throughout the story, I have referred to other characters in my narrative exposition variably by their first names, surnames, or professional titles to reflect how the MC is thinking of that character at a given moment.

My question is: now that the MC knows this character to be a trans woman (and is immediately accepting), should my narrative references to her be changed to feminine pronouns to reflect MC's shift in thinking, or should it stay with masculine pronouns to reflect her preferred public presentation?

Thanks in advance for any help!
 

RiddleBuns

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Of course, especially when you bring up how the narration refers to other characters from the MC's point of view. You should one hundred percent change the narrative references of the character who is a trans woman to feminine in much the same way I'd imagine you change how other characters are referred to based on the MC's view of them.
 

CupcakeNinja

Pervert Supreme
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Hello, All! Long time lurker, first time poster, looking for some opinions.

In my story, I have a character who has presented as male up 'til now, but has just been revealed to the MC to be a trans woman. However, this character is firmly in the closet and not coming out anytime soon, and will therefore continue to publicly use masculine pronouns.

The narrative is third person, but from the MC's singular POV, and throughout the story, I have referred to other characters in my narrative exposition variably by their first names, surnames, or professional titles to reflect how the MC is thinking of that character at a given moment.

My question is: now that the MC knows this character to be a trans woman (and is immediately accepting), should my narrative references to her be changed to feminine pronouns to reflect MC's shift in thinking, or should it stay with masculine pronouns to reflect her preferred public presentation?

Thanks in advance for any help!
The MC should use their pronouns in his own thoughts. And you as the narrator needs to refer to those pronouns when writing from the MCs point of view. But publicly, MC needs to use the masculine pronouns when referring to them since the character is in the closet.
 

avaseofpeonies

your cool weird auntie
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Thanks for all the confirmation so far. That's how I was leaning, just wasn't sure if I was being too messy about it.
 

Choobs

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Just go for consistency the MC knows so use female pronouns (unless they are trying not to out the character) if the pov is for character that doesn’t know use the pronouns that they would normally use. (Since they have no way of knowing)
 

Shard

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You could also go with the route I use IRL and use they/them for everyone, as that avoids the male/female issue, and it doesn't reveal anyone who has trusted you with a secret of being trans. Some people do dislike neutral pronouns, however, but I find it offends far fewer people, and helps those who are trans feel better than being referred to as their body's gender when they don't want it to be publicly known.
 

K5Rakitan

Level 34 👪 💍 Pronouns: she/whore ♀
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Yes, though these things can take some time to adjust to, and that can also be reflected in the MC's perception. Any big change in life will take time to adjust to, especially when you've known someone a long time. Two months after our wedding, I said to my husband, "When we get married, we should have ravioli every week," and that became a running joke.
 

IanWhite2105

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Hello, All! Long time lurker, first time poster, looking for some opinions.

In my story, I have a character who has presented as male up 'til now, but has just been revealed to the MC to be a trans woman. However, this character is firmly in the closet and not coming out anytime soon, and will therefore continue to publicly use masculine pronouns.

The narrative is third person, but from the MC's singular POV, and throughout the story, I have referred to other characters in my narrative exposition variably by their first names, surnames, or professional titles to reflect how the MC is thinking of that character at a given moment.

My question is: now that the MC knows this character to be a trans woman (and is immediately accepting), should my narrative references to her be changed to feminine pronouns to reflect MC's shift in thinking, or should it stay with masculine pronouns to reflect her preferred public presentation?

Thanks in advance for any help!
Keep it with what everyone else uses. It is already a confusing topic for most, so adding onto it is not a good idea.

Is the trans thing the focus of the narrative or the story? I personally don’t have an issue with characters being like this but I do dislike it when the entire narrative is about that. Far too many times have I been recommended a novel that has “LGBTQaporhdmc.....” in the genre and people told me it wasn’t a topic with a lot of focus. Then I read 40-50 chapters of entirely social/political/economic/familial/personal crying (no offense but it is bad for way too many that I have seen).
 

avaseofpeonies

your cool weird auntie
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Messages
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Keep it with what everyone else uses. It is already a confusing topic for most, so adding onto it is not a good idea.

Is the trans thing the focus of the narrative or the story? I personally don’t have an issue with characters being like this but I do dislike it when the entire narrative is about that. Far too many times have I been recommended a novel that has “LGBTQaporhdmc.....” in the genre and people told me it wasn’t a topic with a lot of focus. Then I read 40-50 chapters of entirely social/political/economic/familial/personal crying (no offense but it is bad for way too many that I have seen).
The trans character is a minor side character, but it's a BL story, and queer experiences are definitely the story's central theme.
 

TheEldritchGod

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It started Wifman Werman and Human. Human became man, Werman became man. Wifman became woman. The reason being that with the advent of industrialization, our views on the sexes changed. Women are born with inherent value, where as a man has to earn his value. A male was a gentleman, a fireman, a policeman, etc etc etc. Males became defined by their job or role in society. That's why calling someone a policewoman is silly. A female werewolf would be a wifwolf, although in modern society, we'd call it a woowolf.

You want to play around with gender perception, that's fine, but just understand what you are really saying. Words have meaning. the male pronouns are male AND gender neutral. We don't assume the default is male, we assume being male is unimportant.

A woman is a human being. A man is a human DOING. if he isn't doing anything, what good is he?

When guys get together after a date, what do they ask each other, "How does she look?"
When women get together after a date, what do they ask each other, "What does he do?"

Your objective is to 'use pronouns correctly'. Perhaps you should step back and ask, 'Am I using gender correctly'. There is how we see ourselves, and how others see us. People like it when things are clear cut, so we put people in boxes, not to impose our will on them, but so we can make predictions and anticipate behavior patterns. Everyone does, because you were born with the ability to see into the future. People WILL look at someone, judge if they are male or female, then put them in a box. Literally. Your brain has places for what it views as male and what it views as female. It stores the memory differently.

Pick pronouns based on the characters who view the character, but use them only when that character speaks.

The MC has a view of what they are, and that pronoun should be used for all 'narration' and 3rd person PoV. IF THE CHARACTER'S SELF-IMAGE CHANGES, then change the pronouns. This is a way of indicating that something has changed to your reader.

I had a MC encounter a dragon. I avoided using pronouns for most of the encounter until the dragon made it clear it was female. THAT is when I started using female pronouns.

When you are encountering someone, but the MC does not know their name, for females, you pick a physical description. Nice lady. Young Girl, Blue haired girl, etc etc etc. You keep doing this until the name becomes known to the MC, then you start using the character's name.

However, for MEN, you use a description of what they are doing, or where they are. The man in the corner. The courier. The man holding the briefcase. You use terms and labels that describe what he is DOING or what he IS.

When you mix these up, the reader won't notice at first, but I promise you, it will change how they view the character. If you describe a woman by her job or what she does, readers WILL describe her as 'aloof' or Snooty or unemotional, or even masculine, EVEN IF EVERYTHING ELSE REMAINS THE SAME.

To describe a man by his physical characteristics makes readers think of him as weak, effeminate, or even flat out gay. Again, it's been tested and this happens even if everything else remains the same.

There are rules to writing, like it or not. People expect those rules to be followed, or they will react to those changes in ways that may destroy the message of your story. If your reader fails to understand what you mean, IT IS YOUR FAULT. It is a poor writer that blames the audience. You are trying to speak to THEM. Respect your reader in trying to be as clear as possible and using words in ways that are expected.

However, don't feel like it must ALWAYS be this way. I am writing a story with Sexual morality reversed. I deliberately pick and choose how I describe characters who's names aren't known yet. I deliberately use 'what they do' when I want a woman to be seen in a masculine role and what they look like when I want a man to be seen as feminine.

Knowing how language works is a tool, but not a panacea, but if you want to get good at this, you need to know these layers because it is the difference between a good story and a GREAT story. It requires a light touch. Focus on perspective first, but also pay attention to how you want the READER to see things.

In the end, the message that winds up in the reader's head is the only thing that matters.
 

avaseofpeonies

your cool weird auntie
Joined
Oct 19, 2021
Messages
117
Points
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It started Wifman Werman and Human. Human became man, Werman became man. Wifman became woman. The reason being that with the advent of industrialization, our views on the sexes changed. Women are born with inherent value, where as a man has to earn his value. A male was a gentleman, a fireman, a policeman, etc etc etc. Males became defined by their job or role in society. That's why calling someone a policewoman is silly. A female werewolf would be a wifwolf, although in modern society, we'd call it a woowolf.

You want to play around with gender perception, that's fine, but just understand what you are really saying. Words have meaning. the male pronouns are male AND gender neutral. We don't assume the default is male, we assume being male is unimportant.

A woman is a human being. A man is a human DOING. if he isn't doing anything, what good is he?

When guys get together after a date, what do they ask each other, "How does she look?"
When women get together after a date, what do they ask each other, "What does he do?"

Your objective is to 'use pronouns correctly'. Perhaps you should step back and ask, 'Am I using gender correctly'. There is how we see ourselves, and how others see us. People like it when things are clear cut, so we put people in boxes, not to impose our will on them, but so we can make predictions and anticipate behavior patterns. Everyone does, because you were born with the ability to see into the future. People WILL look at someone, judge if they are male or female, then put them in a box. Literally. Your brain has places for what it views as male and what it views as female. It stores the memory differently.

Pick pronouns based on the characters who view the character, but use them only when that character speaks.

The MC has a view of what they are, and that pronoun should be used for all 'narration' and 3rd person PoV. IF THE CHARACTER'S SELF-IMAGE CHANGES, then change the pronouns. This is a way of indicating that something has changed to your reader.

I had a MC encounter a dragon. I avoided using pronouns for most of the encounter until the dragon made it clear it was female. THAT is when I started using female pronouns.

When you are encountering someone, but the MC does not know their name, for females, you pick a physical description. Nice lady. Young Girl, Blue haired girl, etc etc etc. You keep doing this until the name becomes known to the MC, then you start using the character's name.

However, for MEN, you use a description of what they are doing, or where they are. The man in the corner. The courier. The man holding the briefcase. You use terms and labels that describe what he is DOING or what he IS.

When you mix these up, the reader won't notice at first, but I promise you, it will change how they view the character. If you describe a woman by her job or what she does, readers WILL describe her as 'aloof' or Snooty or unemotional, or even masculine, EVEN IF EVERYTHING ELSE REMAINS THE SAME.

To describe a man by his physical characteristics makes readers think of him as weak, effeminate, or even flat out gay. Again, it's been tested and this happens even if everything else remains the same.

There are rules to writing, like it or not. People expect those rules to be followed, or they will react to those changes in ways that may destroy the message of your story. If your reader fails to understand what you mean, IT IS YOUR FAULT. It is a poor writer that blames the audience. You are trying to speak to THEM. Respect your reader in trying to be as clear as possible and using words in ways that are expected.

However, don't feel like it must ALWAYS be this way. I am writing a story with Sexual morality reversed. I deliberately pick and choose how I describe characters who's names aren't known yet. I deliberately use 'what they do' when I want a woman to be seen in a masculine role and what they look like when I want a man to be seen as feminine.

Knowing how language works is a tool, but not a panacea, but if you want to get good at this, you need to know these layers because it is the difference between a good story and a GREAT story. It requires a light touch. Focus on perspective first, but also pay attention to how you want the READER to see things.

In the end, the message that winds up in the reader's head is the only thing that matters.

Aw, bless your heart. 💖
 

IanWhite2105

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 22, 2022
Messages
58
Points
58
It started Wifman Werman and Human. Human became man, Werman became man. Wifman became woman. The reason being that with the advent of industrialization, our views on the sexes changed. Women are born with inherent value, where as a man has to earn his value. A male was a gentleman, a fireman, a policeman, etc etc etc. Males became defined by their job or role in society. That's why calling someone a policewoman is silly. A female werewolf would be a wifwolf, although in modern society, we'd call it a woowolf.

You want to play around with gender perception, that's fine, but just understand what you are really saying. Words have meaning. the male pronouns are male AND gender neutral. We don't assume the default is male, we assume being male is unimportant.

A woman is a human being. A man is a human DOING. if he isn't doing anything, what good is he?

When guys get together after a date, what do they ask each other, "How does she look?"
When women get together after a date, what do they ask each other, "What does he do?"

Your objective is to 'use pronouns correctly'. Perhaps you should step back and ask, 'Am I using gender correctly'. There is how we see ourselves, and how others see us. People like it when things are clear cut, so we put people in boxes, not to impose our will on them, but so we can make predictions and anticipate behavior patterns. Everyone does, because you were born with the ability to see into the future. People WILL look at someone, judge if they are male or female, then put them in a box. Literally. Your brain has places for what it views as male and what it views as female. It stores the memory differently.

Pick pronouns based on the characters who view the character, but use them only when that character speaks.

The MC has a view of what they are, and that pronoun should be used for all 'narration' and 3rd person PoV. IF THE CHARACTER'S SELF-IMAGE CHANGES, then change the pronouns. This is a way of indicating that something has changed to your reader.

I had a MC encounter a dragon. I avoided using pronouns for most of the encounter until the dragon made it clear it was female. THAT is when I started using female pronouns.

When you are encountering someone, but the MC does not know their name, for females, you pick a physical description. Nice lady. Young Girl, Blue haired girl, etc etc etc. You keep doing this until the name becomes known to the MC, then you start using the character's name.

However, for MEN, you use a description of what they are doing, or where they are. The man in the corner. The courier. The man holding the briefcase. You use terms and labels that describe what he is DOING or what he IS.

When you mix these up, the reader won't notice at first, but I promise you, it will change how they view the character. If you describe a woman by her job or what she does, readers WILL describe her as 'aloof' or Snooty or unemotional, or even masculine, EVEN IF EVERYTHING ELSE REMAINS THE SAME.

To describe a man by his physical characteristics makes readers think of him as weak, effeminate, or even flat out gay. Again, it's been tested and this happens even if everything else remains the same.

There are rules to writing, like it or not. People expect those rules to be followed, or they will react to those changes in ways that may destroy the message of your story. If your reader fails to understand what you mean, IT IS YOUR FAULT. It is a poor writer that blames the audience. You are trying to speak to THEM. Respect your reader in trying to be as clear as possible and using words in ways that are expected.

However, don't feel like it must ALWAYS be this way. I am writing a story with Sexual morality reversed. I deliberately pick and choose how I describe characters who's names aren't known yet. I deliberately use 'what they do' when I want a woman to be seen in a masculine role and what they look like when I want a man to be seen as feminine.

Knowing how language works is a tool, but not a panacea, but if you want to get good at this, you need to know these layers because it is the difference between a good story and a GREAT story. It requires a light touch. Focus on perspective first, but also pay attention to how you want the READER to see things.

In the end, the message that winds up in the reader's head is the only thing that matters.
Way to much man. Now for my reason for replying.
Wifman became wife because romans had very similar grammar to english speakers. People would say things like “where’s your girl” (their was no concept of girlfriend by todays standard, they would abbreviate “wifman” in the same way though), so eventually “wifman” became “Wife”. “Human” is still Human as well.
 
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