What’s your take on nationalism in novels?

[Kenjona]

FYI pick any adventure book in the US written before the 1990's and you can see they have a very nationalistic outlook towards everyone else. The US has mellowed since then. British shows and stories were/are not any better. French, yeah they are pretty rotten in and of themselves, and have not changed much since the 70's.

But while some of the Chinese modern settings remind me of those books in how they are written. Their treatment of foreign women is pretty horrendous in comparison, stereotypically: Japanese girls get raped and love it; Russian girls you bang when they are underaged do not want marriage, and will only have kids when you say so; US girls are all wide open about getting the D from the C no matter where/when; European girls are ice queens who end up begging for it and are nearly all nobility of course; finally Chinese women are all martial arts wonders (except when needing to be rescued) and virgins who are looking for the right man; unless they are widows, then they are the sexually experienced but loyal house wife with child type; better if their husband had died for a noble reason that you can take revenge for.

Mind you the above is not true for every Chinese modern novel, but enough that it has become a really awful series of Tropes in my mind.

 

[longer]

FYI pick any adventure book in the US written before the 1990's and you can see they have a very nationalistic outlook towards everyone else. The US has mellowed since then. British shows and stories were/are not any better. French, yeah they are pretty rotten in and of themselves, and have not changed much since the 70's.

But while some of the Chinese modern settings remind me of those books in how they are written. Their treatment of foreign women is pretty horrendous in comparison, stereotypically: Japanese girls get raped and love it; Russian girls you bang when they are underaged do not want marriage, and will only have kids when you say so; US girls are all wide open about getting the D from the C no matter where/when; European girls are ice queens who end up begging for it and are nearly all nobility of course; finally Chinese women are all martial arts wonders (except when needing to be rescued) and virgins who are looking for the right man; unless they are widows, then they are the sexually experienced but loyal house wife with child type; better if their husband had died for a noble reason that you can take revenge for.

Mind you the above is not true for every Chinese modern novel, but enough that it has become a really awful series of Tropes in my mind.

Ironic considering how Chinese men, at least in mainland China, are getting 0 pussy. Mfs have to resort to human trafficking to find a wife.

 

[Kenjona]

Ironic considering how Chinese men, at least in mainland China, are getting 0 pussy. Mfs have to resort to human trafficking to find a wife.

Sadly Korean men were/are running into this problem too, weirdly enough. Too many trying to be old style Patriarchs in a very less patriarchal world and their women not having any of it, because they have choices.
In the Chinese case it is the same as above PLUS a major gender imbalance of about 100 Chinese women to 110-120 Men.


Edited to add: India is having the same issue in Gender Gap as China.

 

[LilTV1155]

I am not a fan of blatant nationalism. But I don't really mind if the nationalism is at least kept to very low profile information to 0 or nonexistent at all.

BUT, if that author begin to forcefeed readers by bowls or shovels of nationalism, then it's a problem because of what the reader know about history, politcs, cultures, and yeah, eventually that nationalism may turn into something worse like racism or in some bizarre forms that give off cultish vibes. The story media may become a potential source of not just culture information, but rather potentially bad or false information.

Like WW2 massacre never existed according to this author's nationalistic logics, but readers from other parts of the world already know about it. They are descendants who may not just resent the author, but the author's country for denying "facts".

It can also get very annoying, because that nationalism may become racist at some points. Although some stereotypes are undeniable, but no one like to be considered that way all the time.

Like Italians must eat pasta otherwise they can't be called Italians or Asians like Japanese/Chinese/Koreans must consume rice daily or they can't be called Asians of their [ Inset Named ] country. Or worse, Americans are not considered Americans because they are not "crazy stupid, asshole / bitchy, or etc." enough?

FYI pick any adventure book in the US written before the 1990's and you can see they have a very nationalistic outlook towards everyone else. The US has mellowed since then. British shows and stories were/are not any better. French, yeah they are pretty rotten in and of themselves, and have not changed much since the 70's.

But while some of the Chinese modern settings remind me of those books in how they are written. Their treatment of foreign women is pretty horrendous in comparison, stereotypically: Japanese girls get raped and love it; Russian girls you bang when they are underaged do not want marriage, and will only have kids when you say so; US girls are all wide open about getting the D from the C no matter where/when; European girls are ice queens who end up begging for it and are nearly all nobility of course; finally Chinese women are all martial arts wonders (except when needing to be rescued) and virgins who are looking for the right man; unless they are widows, then they are the sexually experienced but loyal house wife with child type; better if their husband had died for a noble reason that you can take revenge for.

Mind you the above is not true for every Chinese modern novel, but enough that it has become a really awful series of Tropes in my mind.

That is really disturbing.

 

[Kenjona]

I am not a fan of blatant nationalism. But I don't really mind if the nationalism is at least kept to very low profile information or nonexistent at all.

BUT, if that author begin to forcefeed readers by bowls or shovels of nationalism, then it's a problem because of what the reader know about history, politcs, cultures, and yeah, eventually that nationalism may turn into something worse like racism or in some bizarre forms that give off cultish vibes. The story media may become a potential source of not just culture information, but rather potentially bad or false information.

Like WW2 massacre never existed according to this author's nationalistic logics, but readers from other parts of the world already know about it. They are descendants who may not just resent the author, but the author's country for denying "facts".

It can also get very annoying, because that nationalism may become racist at some points. Although some stereotypes are undeniable, but no one like to be considered that way all the time.

Like Italians must eat pasta otherwise they can't be called Italians or Asians like Japanese/Chinese/Koreans must consume rice daily or they can't be called Asians of their [ Inset Named ] country. Or worse, Americans are not considered Americans because they are not "crazy stupid, asshole / bitchy, or etc." enough?

That is really disturbing.

Agreed, and I drop any "modern genre" Chinese novels if they get to the Special Forces/James Bond arc stage. I have a high bullshit tolerance, but many of their authors have no clue about real world events or cultures. Which is very much telling in and of itself of how China teaches its own population about the rest of the world.

 

[Carpio]

This is the perfect place to spread my nationalistic ideology. EARTH IS A DONUT! Great, now we all know the truth that the CSA, ESA, IRS, and SERN hid from us. But anyways nationalism is stupid. Who gives a f about country politics when the internet exists? We know everything, be it good or bad, at the tip of our fingers.

 

[Lloyd]

Nationalism is based and epic.

 

[LilTV1155]

Nationalism is based and epic.

And highly controversial that some media like a certain anime got banned in some other countries like darling in the franxxx.
.
Although it's good for sci-fi, modern, and historical plot set up. But the cons are very high when it come to character developments as well cause our modernists' thinkings not equal to the futurist or historicalist's thought processes.

 

[Lloyd]

And highly controversial that some media like a certain anime got banned in some other countries like darling in the franxxx.
.
Although it's good for sci-fi, modern, and historical plot set up. But the cons are very high when it come to character developments as well cause our modernists' thinkings not equal to the futurist or historicalist's thought processes.

Not really. It's just most of the political elites around the world hate nationalism because it's against them and they happen to own all the media. Nationalism isn't actually controversial at all, it simply threatens the current power structures and status quo. Obviously institutions will be against the thing that is threatening to their power and seek to ban it.

 

[LilTV1155]

Not really. It's just most of the political elites around the world hate nationalism because it's against them and they happen to own all the media. Nationalism isn't actually controversial at all, it simply threatens the current power structures and status quo. Obviously institutions will be against the thing that is threatening to their power and seek to ban it.

Power structure, I can understand.

But I still consider it mostly controversial because of the author's idealogy being expressed, especially for moral concerns.

 

[bigbear51]

According to people here, nationalism is a big no-no. Because I'll totally take the moral concerns of people who support plenty of other degenerate things because "Oh well this thing is only because of society and propaganda" and other shit like that.

 

[SakeVision]

Very cringe, because people who do that usually don't have any skill to do it subtly and correctly; instead, they obnoxiously bash you on the head with the "my nation is the best" propaganda that alienates even their own nationals.

Kinda expected of people who based their whole identity primarily on something they were given for free upon birth; they don't have much going on in their life, and they are unskilled.

Of course, to every rule there are exceptions. I have not read any nationalistic book that would be good; but seen many movies and tv dramas that, although inherently biased, were nonetheless entertaining and well made.

According to people here, nationalism is a big no-no. Because I'll totally take the moral concerns of people who support plenty of other degenerate things because "Oh well this thing is only because of society and propaganda" and other shit like that.

Oh no, a degenerate. My entire life is ruined. Anything but that!

Moom he called me a degenarte.

I'm more puzzled by Korean nationalism since they've had very few instances where they could pretend to be a major player in East Asian geographical politics. They've had eras where they were able to fight China or Japan on equal terms...but it was very rare.

Nationalism is a love of one's own country and nation. It has nothing to do with what happened in history, although nationalists love using carefully selected fragments of history as justification of war, xenophobia, and other nasty things.

Kurds are some of the most nationalistic people in the world, despite not having their own state for centuries. They just fight to preserve their national identity and culture.

 

[Carpio]

It's obvious the best country is the Vatican, they got cool hats. People should use them as nationalistic propaganda more often.

 

[SakeVision]

It's obvious the best country is the Vatican, they got cool hats. People should use them as nationalistic propaganda more often.

The king of vatican says that god is more important than country, that kinda clashes with the entire nationalism thing

 

[bigbear51]

Oh no, a degenerate. My entire life is ruined. Anything but that!

Moom he called me a degenarte.

Not that I'm wrong. People here love defending things like polyamory on the basis that it's only frowned upon because "society told us so". Morals are far from the first thing I'd be looking for around here.

 

[SakeVision]

Not that I'm wrong. People here love defending things like polyamory on the basis that it's only frowned upon because "society told us so". Morals are far from the first thing I'd be looking for around here.

But bible is ok with polyamory! Are you against the bible?

 

[AKnightWithaKnife]

But bible is ok with polyamory! Are you against the bible?

Um sir which part of the Bible? The Jewish or catholic part ?

 

[SakeVision]

Um sir which part of the Bible? The Jewish or catholic part ?

Catholic part? Ah, the part where they censored the 10 commandments because the fragment about not making any graven images was very problematic from a certain point onward?

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

According to people here, nationalism is a big no-no. Because I'll totally take the moral concerns of people who support plenty of other degenerate things because "Oh well this thing is only because of society and propaganda" and other shit like that.

Yeah. Considering the 50 different genders people believe in, polyamory, then the weirdos who either believe in no gender at all or that they can switch whatever gender they like depending on the day of the week or just what their fee-fee's tell them, nationalism doesn't seem all that bad to me. In fact, seems like a much lesser evil in comparison.

Let's just call it a balance shall we? You believe in your fake nonsense, and I'll pretend my nation can kick your nation's dad's ass k?

Sounds good right? Sounds fair right?

Catholic part? Ah, the part where they censored the 10 commandments because the fragment about not making any graven images was very problematic from a certain point onward?

Pretty sure thats not Catholic. That's Eastern Orthodoxy with their prohibition against icons, statues, artwork and whatnot though they still break this rule depending on which eastern church you refer or speak to. Historically speaking, this was originally called the Iconoclasm, something the Byzantine Empire began but which never gained much traction in the Latin & Catholic west. Catholicism has been using icons and idols throughout its entire history and has never decreed it heretical. I mean, praying to Saints would break the rule of graven images, and just having artwork of Mother Mary would also be problematic to a stickler.

No idea about Judaism. They don't pray to prophets, they have no recognizable saints or even have their own version of Saints, or even consider martyrs as something to place within a context of holy remembrance. Don't think the concept of Jewish artwork ever became a thing with them as it did in Christianity. So maybe they don't even have the idea of iconography or idols?

Edit: Nevermind, I might have misunderstood your stance.

Um sir which part of the Bible? The Jewish or catholic part ?

Their were parts in the Jewish text where men had more than one wife, but it was rare. Pretty sure there is no such thing in Catholicism, and if it is, it hearkens back to pre-Christian times when Christianity was still only in Judea or underground in the west and being persecuted, and not within any Catholic past as it became mainstream. I'm not Christian, but I'm well read. Still, correct me if I'm wrong.

Still, Catholicism....I don't think they've ever approved of or accepted polyamory. That sounds like another weird appropriation of the even weirder social cult that has quite the membership in this site. I hate to say SJW since that word is overly used and nearly dead now, so I'll just say "leftists" and pretend most people know what I'm getting at.

 

[Southdog]

Yeah, I'm a nationalist if only for the sake of pragmatism. America is anomalous in that the identity of being American, as ephemeral as it is, used to take precedence over any other identity you had. In the words of Theodore Roosevelt, "there is no room in this country for hyphenated Americans." Honestly, I'd like to get back to that! Being American is a matter of spirit, superseding the matter of physical traits or other creeds. For a very brief period in history you could be anything or anyone you wanted to be: so long as you were American first.

Pragmatically: a country cannot exist if pluralities are at each other's throats and hostile towards each other. Especially if they are divided on the basis of identities constructed around superficial characteristics. Almost every time there has been division based on such qualities- your creed or color - trust is degraded and conflict is inevitable.

Do not confuse a love of nation for a love of the state. America is beautiful. The United States is an abomination. The distinction is important. I love my fellow Americans (south of the Mason-Dixon and east of the Rio Grande). I wouldn't shed a tear for Washington D.C. if it fell into the ocean tomorrow.

In the context of novels? Honestly, I like seeing it. Nationalism as a character quality is a subset of pride, as both a virtue and a vice. It's disparaged in favor of anti-nationalist/identarian rhetoric, but honestly? Taking pride in something is better than having no pride at all.