What is a Hero? & Do you think the Hero's journeys is outdated? (The Lounge Podcast)

[D.S.Nate]

This was inspired by a thread that I saw here a few weeks ago and so I talked about it on my podcast.

I'll leave you with the same question:

What is a hero? and what are your thoughts in the Hero's journeys do you think it can go out of date?

(Here's my thoughts on it if you care to read...)

I feel that our take on hero it taken too on the nose to mean the classical hero's in myths and the hero's journey structure is taken as some rule book to only make hero's when that's all backwards. For one all story structures are made from the observations that people studying stories found in most of the stories they found compelling.

The observation was one of something that existed the world over before the story structure was ever put to pen. Not all the stories observed had ever step in the structure they created because it was a common observation but a rule book. Because of this, you can change the tale of a boy gained a power to slay the dragon to get the treasure into, a young man (boy) who gained the skills (power) to ace an interview (slay the dragon) to get a better wage (treasure).

So on delivery yes, I agree that a boy picking up a magic sword and smiting evil is alone is not going to cut it. that that dose not make the structure that was observed from them stories outdated because I can't help but see it in a lot thing stories today.

 

[SailusGebel]

 

[TotallyHuman]

we all need a hero
somebody to help us to be brave
we all need a hero
and someone he can save
we all need a hero
believing that deep inside
we'll find there is some kind of hero too
like the one I found in you

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

This was inspired by a thread that I saw here a few weeks ago and so I talked about it on my podcast.

I'll leave you with the same question:

What is a hero? and what are your thoughts in the Hero's journeys do you think it can go out of date?

(Here's my thoughts on it if you care to read...)

I feel that our take on hero it taken too on the nose to mean the classical hero's in myths and the hero's journey structure is taken as some rule book to only make hero's when that's all backwards. For one all story structures are made from the observations that people studying stories found in most of the stories they found compelling.

The observation was one of something that existed the world over before the story structure was ever put to pen. Not all the stories observed had ever step in the structure they created because it was a common observation but a rule book. Because of this, you can change the tale of a boy gained a power to slay the dragon to get the treasure into, a young man (boy) who gained the skills (power) to ace an interview (slay the dragon) to get a better wage (treasure).

So on delivery yes, I agree that a boy picking up a magic sword and smiting evil is alone is not going to cut it. that that dose not make the structure that was observed from them stories outdated because I can't help but see it in a lot thing stories today.

Heroes and the hero genre in general are like tanks ... They are basically said dead since their inception, and yet they are still here.

The concept just works.

 

[D.S.Nate]

Heroes and the hero genre in general are like tanks ... They are basically said dead since their inception, and yet they are still here.

The concept just works.

True, and also I think what some of the mix up I find it just the language we use to define the main character. We can call them a hero but sometimes it's not only not true in the literal sense but the writer dose not want them to be seen as a hero but because it can be used in a lot of ways things get tricky when it comes to defining out MC's.

I find using the work protagonist helps with that mix up but yeah, just an interesting observation I found. lol

 

[Tempokai]

 

[Corty]

Hero: the main character.

And no, it's not outdated. It is as old as humanity and will be retold again and again way after we all are dead.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

True, and also I think what some of the mix up I find it just the language we use to define the main character. We can call them a hero but sometimes it's not only not true in the literal sense but the writer dose not want them to be seen as a hero but because it can be used in a lot of ways things get tricky when it comes to defining out MC's.

I find using the work protagonist helps with that mix up but yeah, just an interesting observation I found. lol

Hero is indeed just a subtype of protagonist.

Prot ago nist:

Protos + agein

The one who acts first.

 

[TheEldritchGod]

A hero is what we call someone, not what they call themselves. A hero cannot exist outside of context.

 

[laccoff_mawning]

I've never considered a hero to go on a journey; or more accurately, rarely. Especially not a journey in a metaphorical sense.
To me, a hero is someone who's already completed, or near the end of the journey. They've grown as much as they can, or maybe they just have the last stretch to go. A hero who continually progresses and gets better is no hero at all, since there is nothing above a hero for them to progress at. The hero is the person I strive to be at the end of my journey.
In that sense I am very strict in my definition about a hero: a "flawed hero" does not exist, albeit many "heroes" have flaws since they are not yet at the end of their journey.
As for the "heroes" who remain flawed at the end- the true end; they are not "heroes" at all, but merely fakes. Because I do not strive to become such a person that will be content with their own flaws.
Many might argue a perfect hero doesn't make for an interesting story, but I say, "not so"! For there shall never be a time when such a hero is not desired in the heart of mankind.

 

[D.S.Nate]

I've never considered a hero to go on a journey; or more accurately, rarely. Especially not a journey in a metaphorical sense.
To me, a hero is someone who's already completed, or near the end of the journey. They've grown as much as they can, or maybe they just have the last stretch to go. A hero who continually progresses and gets better is no hero at all, since there is nothing above a hero for them to progress at. The hero is the person I strive to be at the end of my journey.
In that sense I am very strict in my definition about a hero: a "flawed hero" does not exist, albeit many "heroes" have flaws since they are not yet at the end of their journey.
As for the "heroes" who remain flawed at the end- the true end; they are not "heroes" at all, but merely fakes. Because I do not strive to become such a person that will be content with their own flaws.
Many might argue a perfect hero doesn't make for an interesting story, but I say, "not so"! For there shall never be a time when such a hero is not desired in the heart of mankind.

It's interesting you mention this and I get what you are saying since yes a hero is someone who's got there stuff together because they already been on journeys. These heroes struggles do not come from trying to change themselves per say but rather from there actions changing the people and the world around them instead. Captain America the winter solider is a solid example of this since through the movie he did not change but instead who he was was challenge by not only his enemies who his allies where him.

There is also the an arc where such a character is changed for the worst. so starting as a hero and becoming the bad guy. But the three paths that tend to happen is these three.

1. The young hero I on a journey of change to become a hero.

2. The completed hero is on a journey to change the world.

3. The young hero was on a journey to change but it turned out for the worst.

4. the opposite of 3 is just a valine ready to mess up the world by that point sooo yeah.

 

[ElijahRyne]

This was inspired by a thread that I saw here a few weeks ago and so I talked about it on my podcast.

I'll leave you with the same question:

What is a hero? and what are your thoughts in the Hero's journeys do you think it can go out of date?

(Here's my thoughts on it if you care to read...)

I feel that our take on hero it taken too on the nose to mean the classical hero's in myths and the hero's journey structure is taken as some rule book to only make hero's when that's all backwards. For one all story structures are made from the observations that people studying stories found in most of the stories they found compelling.

The observation was one of something that existed the world over before the story structure was ever put to pen. Not all the stories observed had ever step in the structure they created because it was a common observation but a rule book. Because of this, you can change the tale of a boy gained a power to slay the dragon to get the treasure into, a young man (boy) who gained the skills (power) to ace an interview (slay the dragon) to get a better wage (treasure).

So on delivery yes, I agree that a boy picking up a magic sword and smiting evil is alone is not going to cut it. that that dose not make the structure that was observed from them stories outdated because I can't help but see it in a lot thing stories today.

Heroes are fine, the issue is the heroes journey. I ain’t the best at discussing this so I do recommend looking it up and doing your own research. Anyways, to my best knowledge the heroes journey was created in 1949, by cherry picking stories that fit its structure. Outside of Starwars it is hard to find a story that fits its formula, and this includes in myths.

Spoiler: Easy to find criticism, I.E. Wikipedia

Campbell's approach to myth, a genre of folklore, has been the subject of criticism from folklorists, academics who specialize in folklore studies. American folklorist Barre Toelken notes that few psychologists have taken the time to become familiar with the complexities of folklore, and that, historically, Jung-influenced psychologists and authors have tended to build complex theories around single versions of a tale that supports a theory or a proposal. To illustrate his point, Toelken employs Clarissa Pinkola Estés's (1992) Women Who Run with the Wolves, citing its inaccurate representation of the folklore record, and Campbell's "monomyth" approach as another. Regarding Campbell, Toelken writes, "Campbell could construct a monomyth of the hero only by citing those stories that fit his preconceived mold, and leaving out equally valid stories... which did not fit the pattern". Toelken traces the influence of Campbell's monomyth theory into other then-contemporary popular works, such as Robert Bly's Iron John: A Book About Men (1990), which he says suffers from similar source selection bias.[63]

Similarly, American folklorist Alan Dundes is highly critical of both Campbell's approach to folklore, designating him as a "non-expert" and outlining various examples of source bias in Campbell's theories, as well as media representation of Campbell as an expert on the subject of myth in popular culture. Dundes writes, "Folklorists have had some success in publicising the results of our efforts in the past two centuries such that members of other disciplines have, after a minimum of reading, believe they are qualified to speak authoritatively of folkloristic matters. It seems that the world is full of self-proclaimed experts in folklore, and a few, such as Campbell, have been accepted as such by the general public (and public television, in the case of Campbell)". According to Dundes, "there is no single idea promulgated by amateurs that have done more harm to serious folklore study than the notion of archetype".[64]

According to Northup (2006), mainstream scholarship of comparative mythology since Campbell has moved away from "highly general and universal" categories in general.[65] This attitude is illustrated by Consentino (1998), who remarks "It is just as important to stress differences as similarities, to avoid creating a (Joseph) Campbell soup of myths that loses all local flavor."[66] Similarly, Ellwood (1999) stated "A tendency to think in generic terms of people, races ... is undoubtedly the profoundest flaw in mythological thinking."[67]

Others have found the categories Campbell works with so vague as to be meaningless and lacking the support required of scholarly argument: Crespi (1990), writing in response to Campbell's filmed presentation of his model, characterized it as "unsatisfying from a social science perspective. Campbell's ethnocentrism will raise objections, and his analytic level is so abstract and devoid of ethnographic context that myth loses the very meanings supposed to be embedded in the 'hero’.

 

[TsumiHokiro]

This was inspired by a thread that I saw here a few weeks ago and so I talked about it on my podcast.

I'll leave you with the same question:

What is a hero? and what are your thoughts in the Hero's journeys do you think it can go out of date?

*Siiiiiiiigh*

Why are you thinking of the classical hero? The one you see on epic stories? Who has sword and magic?
Let me tell you a story about the modern hero, the one we see nowadays:
This hero does not have recognition of many, but it is nonetheless the saviour of many. This hero is nameless. But it brings food to 10 children every day. This hero has 2 children, it works all day. It is a social welfare worker. It works for meagre salaries, and it desires no recognition. No more than it already has.
It would love to have a better society, but it also recognises that it would be a tall dream that its work could make everyone around it better. But yet, it still hopes that, one day, others will see its work for what it is. That it is working to make society a better place.

 

[D.S.Nate]

*Siiiiiiiigh*

Why are you thinking of the classical hero? The one you see on epic stories? Who has sword and magic?
Let me tell you a story about the modern hero, the one we see nowadays:
This hero does not have recognition of many, but it is nonetheless the saviour of many. This hero is nameless. But it brings food to 10 children every day. This hero has 2 children, it works all day. It is a social welfare worker. It works for meagre salaries, and it desires no recognition. No more than it already has.
It would love to have a better society, but it also recognises that it would be a tall dream that its work could make everyone around it better. But yet, it still hopes that, one day, others will see its work for what it is. That it is working to make society a better place.

I agree, that was my point, read my take on this was (if you want) and you'll see.

I'll add that I feel that was the point of those stories. they scratch the truth of the struggle people faced at the time all in order to help them face there real world day to day struggles. This is why this will crop up in even today but like you said, more grounded and day to day stuff meaning we are all heroes when we step up and do what right within our circles.

 

[RepresentingEnvy]

*Siiiiiiiigh*

Why are you thinking of the classical hero? The one you see on epic stories? Who has sword and magic?
Let me tell you a story about the modern hero, the one we see nowadays:
This hero does not have recognition of many, but it is nonetheless the saviour of many. This hero is nameless. But it brings food to 10 children every day. This hero has 2 children, it works all day. It is a social welfare worker. It works for meagre salaries, and it desires no recognition. No more than it already has.
It would love to have a better society, but it also recognises that it would be a tall dream that its work could make everyone around it better. But yet, it still hopes that, one day, others will see its work for what it is. That it is working to make society a better place.

Except nameless heros are also old as time.

 

[TsumiHokiro]

Except nameless heros are also old as time.

Not with only 2 children and only a hero of 10 ;)

I agree, that was my point, read my take on this was (if you want) and you'll see.

I'll add that I feel that was the point of those stories. they scratch the truth of the struggle people faced at the time all in order to help them face there real world day to day struggles. This is why this will crop up in even today but like you said, more grounded and day to day stuff meaning we are all heroes when we step up and do what right within our circles.

I did read. My point is: heroes don't need powers, as you, however, put they had. You later said they put it down. But once they already have powers, people already associate them with powers, and this makes them no less mystical than heroes of epic tales. Hence, why I told you what is a hero on a daily chronicle. There, too, you will find stories of heroes..

Sorry, you never said anything about putting down the powers... my misinterpretation.

 

[D.S.Nate]

Not with only 2 children and only a hero of 10 ;)
rrrrrrrr
I did read. My point is: heroes don't need powers, as you, however, put they had. You later said they put it down. But once they already have powers, people already associate them with powers, and this makes them no less mystical than heroes of epic tales. Hence, why I told you what is a hero on a daily chronicle. There, too, you will find stories of heroes.

I'm not sure how to quote here but this is what I open up with:

"The observation was one of something that existed the world over before the story structure was ever put to pen. Not all the stories observed had ever step in the structure they created because it was a common observation but a rule book. Because of this, you can change the tale of a boy gained a power to slay the dragon to get the treasure into, a young man (boy) who gained the skills (power) to ace an interview (slay the dragon) to get a better wage (treasure)."

In other words a story of a normal person overcoming adversity fit into the role too so I agree with you. Maybe I worded it wrong But I always though about it that way so I get it.

 

[melchi]

we all need a hero
somebody to help us to be brave
we all need a hero
and someone he can save
we all need a hero
believing that deep inside
we'll find there is some kind of hero too
like the one I found in you

songs about heroes. Sorry blame TH she started it.

 

[Tyranomaster]

The hero's journey is timeless because it speaks directly towards the way that one rises above adversity and succeeds. Making one's self happier and removing suffering from one's own life. As long as we're human, the hero's journey will also be a style of story that people will enjoy hearing/reading about/viewing. It's fundamentally ingrained in animal life through hundreds of millions of years of evolution to follow that template.

To me, this question is like the equivalent of asking, "Is water outdated?"

Sure, you could drink pop (or soda), juice, or something else. However, water as a drinking source isn't, and arguably cannot be, outdated.

Not that people won't enjoy drinking other things, just that water is fundamentally something the majority of people drink, and will continue to drink as long as we're human.

 

[RepresentingEnvy]

The real hero is the friends we made along the way.