Why is every almost fantasy adventure story with a female MC gender bender?

[yansusustories]

To bounce off of this further, when I think of some of the strongest female characters that I know, a manga called Basara comes to mind. It's like an epic shounen-style adventure manga comparable in scale to Rurouni Kenshin or some of the other big battle mangas, and the protagonist is a badass sword-wielding heroine who spends more than half of the story stealing the identity of her twin brother who's supposed to be the "chosen one".

Oh, that sounds really interesting. I usually don't read female-lead stories but I might want to give this one a try because of the dynamic.

That's obviously true. The whole time I was talking about the initial point.

I think it might not have been that obvious that you were only talking about the initial stages. With that clarified, I think it makes sense. Although I would say that sometimes, taking things like gender or race or similar things into consideration can make for interesting stories as well. Sure, not everything in a story should be hinged on this but this is a trait of a character just as much as everything else. I mean, even a character's hair color could have an impact on a story depending on the world you came up with so I think it's safe to say that gender etc. can too. They just shouldn't be the only trait of the character driving the story, they should at most just have an impact like everything else.

Also, a bit beside the point of the discussion, but in regard to this:

Or a single mother who doesn't need any love at all after giving birth and going, full asexual.

Maybe I am just misunderstanding what you were trying to say here but as an actual asexual and aromantic person, I want to point out that asexuality isn't a lack of sex. It's a sexual orientation that means you aren't attracted to any gender. Asexual people still can and often do have sex. It also has absolutely nothing to do with not needing love. Not being attracted romantically to other people would be called being aromantic which is a separate orientation from being asexual. This also doesn't mean not needing love. Many aromantic people are still in loving relationships.

 

[Jemini]

Serious answer, it's a strange fetish that is possessed by more people than anyone would care to imagine.

It is a serious thing the Greeks actually had a name for (although I forget what it was now.) It is primarily recorded as appearing in males, and it is referred to as "the love of oneself as a woman." In other words, FAR more men than anyone likes to think about like to fantasize about themselves as women. It's not a transgender thing, it's a weird fetish thing.

Guys with this weird fetish therefore love the male-to-female MC gender bender stories. Since webnovels and the occasional anime/manga are the only sources for such stories, of course people with this fetish are going to flock to webnovels and up the popularity of such a genre.

(The evidence of this can be seen in how popular male-to-female gender bender stories are, but female-to-male gender bender stories are almost universally disliked by readers.)

 

[TheMangaGod]

I write mostly GB with various fantasy themes and, honestly, my non-GB stories get about 1/10 the views and 1/4 the feedback. If more people read my other stories, I'd write more of them. I've got a fantasy story with a spunky orphan FMC coming out soon, and I guess I'll see how that goes. Otherwise, if there just isn't an audience for my non-GB work, then it's a waste of my time to write more of it.

I like your work! But yeah I agree that your GB works seem to have more readers than the others...

 

[CL]

Well first off figure out what kind of story you want, do want adventure, do you want physiological, romance, self discovery, episodic?
Then figure out what’s next, does the character grow into a kinder person, do they choose to put up a facade and ignore their trauma, does the setting remain mostly constant but the character changes, or are they a constant in a whirlwind of a world?
Then choose an endpoint that either echo’s, or contrasts the character’s views.
Though this is just a suggestion.

Good points. I'll start filling in those blanks after some isolate thought over them. Thank you for your help.

 

[GDLiZy]

It's time to talk a little about Gender Bender, specifically Male to Female and why they are so many of them.

Obviously the readers like them. They are wish-fulfilment and don't look like weird enough fetish that people will avoid. It fixes a few things. Men can now self-insert into girls and do fun stuff with other girls the way they can't before without exposing their perverted mindset (not gay btw, not gay at all, it's not lesbain stfu stfu stfu). Or, the totally-not-gay!men can now have a totally-not-gay relationship with another straight!men. The mc also has the chance to explore her new exciting body (for the readers). You readers can now be cute girls you all want but can't have, while still having chances to either have handsome boys or other cute girls by your side.

What is the recipe for a popular story of this site? It's cute girls doing cute stuff with other cute girls. How do you make it even more relatable? Wait that cute girl is actually a man? That's totally me dude I'm a cute girl now wow! Now I can be either cutesy little sister everyone adore or not-pervert!girl everyone is fine with because they are all girls and girls do girls stuff!

Yes, you are gay. Now go consume more gender bender stories.

 

[Thor]

Something I’ve noticed is if a story is fantasy (though it happens most often in isekai,), with a female protagonist, and isn’t primarily romance, it’s gender bender. Why?

Is it because a lot of the authors are male? If so, then why not have a shut, non-feminine female who was reincarnated?

Good question but I 'guess' the answer it something along the lines "How do I create a beliveable lesbian MC without any knowledge of who they are or how they think. Only source being my mind.

Is it because you want the character to feel alienated? That’s a more valid excuse, but couldn’t you just use their situation to alienate them, or have them reincarnated into something gender less? (Futa’s don’t count.)

Its a common plot device, in isekai. Most isekais are based in medieval times and in those times women were treated as 'lesser beings'. Its a good starting point for an 'underdog'.

Is it because you want your character to be gay, but don’t know how lesbians think, so you just turn a strait guy into a girl? Your making the character, just give them a kinda manly personality, make them like girls, and then boom, a kinda manly lesbian.

You could get really in-depth with that kind of thinking. Yes, its easier to turn a straight male into a non-straight female, because a male would inherently lust (love, whatever) after other females. I dont think that a 'manly personality' is necessary for liking the same sex but that is a territory I'll leave for the right people. Just keep in mind that GL is a genre in very high demand.

Is it because your character has gender dysphoria, and the fact they turned female hasn’t helped things much? If so, good on you.

I will leave that question for people who are experts on transgender topics.

You want sex with the MC not totally comfortable with their body? Then you can just have the MC uncomfortable in the first place.

Still waiting for a story that will treat exactly that topic without being transgender. Like having a 'male soul' trapped in a female body without coming to terms with it. A battle of mind against body, so to speak. (Yes, I lean heavily on mind over body :), sue me)

Keep in mind this is just a discussion starter.

.

 

[PieCoNsUmEr]

You could get really in-depth with that kind of thinking. Yes, its easier to turn a straight male into a non-straight female, because a male would inherently lust (love, whatever) after other females. I dont think that a 'manly personality' is necessary for liking the same sex but that is a territory I'll leave for the right people. Just keep in mind that GL is a genre in very high demand.

I’m not trying to say a manly personality is necessary, I was just trying to put it in a way a writer who isn’t good at writing lesbians could use to help them, ie that just because the character is female doesn’t mean they are particularly feminine.

 

[PieCoNsUmEr]

You're not alone on that one.

I was going to respond Awhaa? but then it autocorrected to Sebastian?

 

[CL]

I was going to respond Awhaa? but then it autocorrected to Sebastian?

That response was towards what K5Rakitan had stated in this thread. I was confused what point was being made by bringing up wish fulfillment and relating it on the fidelity of a newborn. In my opinion it had just sounded like a salty rant towards women, which honestly doesn't sound like anything to do with GB or Isekei content.

 

[PieCoNsUmEr]

That response was towards what K5Rakitan had stated in this thread. I was confused what point was being made by bringing up wish fulfillment and relating it on the fidelity of a newborn. In my opinion it had just sounded like a salty rant towards women, which honestly doesn't sound like anything to do with GB or Isekei content.

I was going for a joke like: @minacia: I’m confused CL: You’re not alone on that one. And me: Awhaa?
Now that I read it I realize my joke is bad.

 

[CL]

I was going for a joke like: @minacia: I’m confused CL: You’re not alone on that one. And me: Awhaa?
Now that I read it I realize my joke is bad.

At the very least you sincerely followed it up and gave me an amused moment to enjoy.

 

[thedude3445]

I write mostly GB with various fantasy themes and, honestly, my non-GB stories get about 1/10 the views and 1/4 the feedback. If more people read my other stories, I'd write more of them. I've got a fantasy story with a spunky orphan FMC coming out soon, and I guess I'll see how that goes. Otherwise, if there just isn't an audience for my non-GB work, then it's a waste of my time to write more of it.

I am only half shitposting when I ask, would going back and retroactively adding an isekai/Gender Bender prologue to a story be enough to add all that extra attention to any given story with a female protagonist? Because pretty much every Gender Bender story I have ever read on the internet mentions the protagonist as a male for like 2 chapters at best and then they're a girl from then on with almost no mentions of the character's past afterwards.

 

[SailusGebel]

Oh, that sounds really interesting. I usually don't read female-lead stories but I might want to give this one a try because of the dynamic.


I think it might not have been that obvious that you were only talking about the initial stages. With that clarified, I think it makes sense. Although I would say that sometimes, taking things like gender or race or similar things into consideration can make for interesting stories as well. Sure, not everything in a story should be hinged on this but this is a trait of a character just as much as everything else. I mean, even a character's hair color could have an impact on a story depending on the world you came up with so I think it's safe to say that gender etc. can too. They just shouldn't be the only trait of the character driving the story, they should at most just have an impact like everything else.

Also, a bit beside the point of the discussion, but in regard to this:

Maybe I am just misunderstanding what you were trying to say here but as an actual asexual and aromantic person, I want to point out that asexuality isn't a lack of sex. It's a sexual orientation that means you aren't attracted to any gender. Asexual people still can and often do have sex. It also has absolutely nothing to do with not needing love. Not being attracted romantically to other people would be called being aromantic which is a separate orientation from being asexual. This also doesn't mean not needing love. Many aromantic people are still in loving relationships.

I honestly don't know how it wasn't obvious when I stated that you are writing a genderless character before putting him into the story. If you've read my previous messages I clearly stated, that this method doesn't work when you are writing things about exploring gender, sexuality, oppression, so on.
What I want to say, that if you take away your character gender or race, and the character itself crumbles, then it's a pretty darn bad character in my opinion. And holy jeesuz, how many times I've seen these function-like characters in both harems or LGBTQ, or whatever else. In the end, are we writing for clicks and views, or are we writing for ourselves? Do we want to write a better story and improve ourselves? Or do we want to cater to the masses? Do we want to challenge ourselves, and be thought-provoking, or are we saying you can't write this because you will have backlash and depict something badly?
C'mon, someone basically stated they are including GB just so their story would be more popular. This is exactly the thing that I don't like. You all saying the world isn't shiny and bright, that gender and race matter because inequality is a really severe thing that affects our lives tremendously. And at the same time, you are defending authors of LGBTQ saying that their one-dimensional characters, are written from the perspective of practicality, from the point of authors preference, because the genre isn't flexible, because you can do whatever you want, and so on. Well, maybe it isn't? Maybe some of the authors just plainly lazy? And create uninteresting function-like characters? Because they want easy clicks and views, or money? And what if most authors like that? This isn't a jab at anyone, nor am I a saint. I just think that if you want to raise the bar of your writing, you should use some tricks and tips that would help you. Not rules, but tips.
When I said that you should write a genderless character, I didn't mean that later on you just go with the Bionicle instead of a character in your school slice of life story. You add it as the last traits, that way it won't outweigh other traits. In the end, it may play a big role, but even if you take them out, you would still have a great character. Do you want functions, or do you want characters that may live on their own?
And lastly. About the word asexual. I don't dabble in this stuff, and I'm not interested in this, I was not, am not, and will not, be in a relationship, ever. Also, examples shouldn't be used in debates(disputes?) because we can spend time, constantly coming up with the ideal examples. And eventually, our conversation would be lead in a completely different direction. My examples down there is garbage because my head didn't work when I came up with them and because it examples in the first place. However, even if they were not, does it really matters? Does what I've written change so much that you must accentuate this? It's not picking on you or anything, I just want you to think. In my opinion, being asexual is enough in that example(though it's still garbage).

 

[yansusustories]

I honestly don't know how it wasn't obvious when I stated that you are writing a genderless character before putting him into the story.

Yes, I did understand what you meant. I was just suggesting that maybe some others misunderstood. I think that's something that can easily happen in writing since you can't easily clarify misunderstandings and I've noticed that many people only read the OP, then respond, and never bother about the rest so they might miss if somebody did clarify or expand on their previous points. Personally, I do agree with your point. I never think much about the gender of my characters when I start a story. It often doesn't even come up in the course of the story, unless it really has an impact on the storyline. I was just saying that maybe there was a misunderstanding because some parts of the discussion looked like it.

My examples down there is garbage because my head didn't work when I came up with them and because it examples in the first place. However, even if they were not, does it really matters? Does what I've written change so much that you must accentuate this? It's not picking on you or anything, I just want you to think. In my opinion, being asexual is enough in that example(though it's still garbage).

The examples absolutely don't matter in the course of this discussion, no. I agree there (which is why I said it was beside the point). But they do matter in the bigger picture which is why I wanted to point it out. Equating 'asexual' with 'having no sex' (which would be being celibate) and 'needing no love' is an unfortunately very common narrative that actually hurts asexual (and aromantic) people. It doesn't necessarily matter for the discussion but it matters that people learn about the difference so that, going forward, we won't have to deal with the outcome of people believing the wrong thing about us. That is why I point it out when it is brought up.

 

[SailusGebel]

Yes, I did understand what you meant. I was just suggesting that maybe some others misunderstood. I think that's something that can easily happen in writing since you can't easily clarify misunderstandings and I've noticed that many people only read the OP, then respond, and never bother about the rest so they might miss if somebody did clarify or expand on their previous points. Personally, I do agree with your point. I never think much about the gender of my characters when I start a story. It often doesn't even come up in the course of the story, unless it really has an impact on the storyline. I was just saying that maybe there was a misunderstanding because some parts of the discussion looked like it.


The examples absolutely don't matter in the course of this discussion, no. I agree there (which is why I said it was beside the point). But they do matter in the bigger picture which is why I wanted to point it out. Equating 'asexual' with 'having no sex' (which would be being celibate) and 'needing no love' is an unfortunately very common narrative that actually hurts asexual (and aromantic) people. It doesn't necessarily matter for the discussion but it matters that people learn about the difference so that, going forward, we won't have to deal with the outcome of people believing the wrong thing about us. That is why I point it out when it is brought up.

I am guilty of not explaining the things I've said rightly. That's true.
Me not explaining the things I say properly is also one of the reasons you've talked about the definition of being asexual. What I've meant IS asexual, not celibate, but you thought of a different thing. I'm sorry, it's my problem as I've already misinterpreted once in this thread.
Also, nothing of what you said answers my questions, though you don't need to. And doesn't continue the whole discussion. Even without examples, we are straying away from the initial conversation.
It's a conversation about one technique being superior to the other. When someone points out the downs(flaws) of the said technique(method) I'm talking that these downs(flaws) don't really hold any value. As you can't escape these downs(flaws) anyway. No matter how you are writing, or what you write, what techniques or method you use. These downs or flaws, or whatever you want to call them, will be there. I'm exaggerating here, but I hope my point is being understood here.
I'm seriously getting tired of this conversation as my point doesn't get to you(not you exactly). It may be my problem, and me being bad with words, phrasing my thoughts weirdly. Or maybe you(once again, I'm not addressing exactly you) don't want to understand my point? And answer my questions? I don't know.

 

[minacia]

I am guilty of not explaining the things I've said rightly. That's true.
Me not explaining the things I say properly is also one of the reasons you've talked about the definition of being asexual. What I've meant IS asexual, not celibate, but you thought of a different thing. I'm sorry, it's my problem as I've already misinterpreted once in this thread.
Also, nothing of what you said answers my questions, though you don't need to. And doesn't continue the whole discussion. Even without examples, we are straying away from the initial conversation.
It's a conversation about one technique being superior to the other. When someone points out the downs(flaws) of the said technique(method) I'm talking that these downs(flaws) don't really hold any value. As you can't escape these downs(flaws) anyway. No matter how you are writing, or what you write, what techniques or method you use. These downs or flaws, or whatever you want to call them, will be there. I'm exaggerating here, but I hope my point is being understood here.
I'm seriously getting tired of this conversation as my point doesn't get to you(not you exactly). It may be my problem, and me being bad with words, phrasing my thoughts weirdly. Or maybe you(once again, I'm not addressing exactly you) don't want to understand my point? And answer my questions? I don't know.

I mean, at this point I'm essentially just nitpicking when you say that a gender-neutral method of writing a character is "superior", simply because I don't think that's the case. I mean, obviously we have a difference in views and we write in different genres, but considering a character's background (which includes gender) occurs extremely early in the writing process for me.

When I think of some of my favorite stories/manga, such as Oyasumi Punpun, Sangatsu no Lion, or Koe no Katachi, the story just wouldn't be the same if the author decided to write the story with the protagonist genderswapped. In many circumstances, authors have very specific messages and themes and ideas they want to convey, and it's not trivial for an author to start the story thinking that maybe Punpun will be a girl.

Again, I think that maybe we like different kinds of stories, so we appreciate different things.

I personally like stories when the author speaks from their heart, and writes something that is very meaningful fo themselves on an emotional level. In this circumstance, I think authors are best positioned to do this when they leverage their own life experiences and feelings, and you can almost never go wrong doing so because characters made this way will almost never seem flat.

I understand if lots of people don't feel like they have a "racial identity" or "gender identity", but contrarily there are also people who have it as a major part of themselves. Consequently, there really isn't a one-size-fits-all solution for this, and I sort of feel strongly reluctant to say that either one is "superior" -- and in a sense, my pushback comes from the perspective that neither are.

There are different ways to go about crafting characters, and different people will certainly appreciate different things.

 

[yansusustories]

Even without examples, we are straying away from the initial conversation.

This was actually what I was worried about because I have this bad habit of seriously derailing conversations so I didn't answer the questions in the hope it wouldn't detract too much from the rest. If you do want me to, I can go back and do it one-by-ine though. I'm just afraid I'll somehow cause a ton of sub-discussions again

What I wanted to say on the overall subject was really just what I said in my very first response though. I think your approach is very good for planning a character to make sure that it won't just revolve around a single trait of theirs (no matter what that trait is). On the other hand, I think that even if one includes this kind of controversial trait (like gender or race or sexuality), it can help make a well-rounded character because a characters' environment might (not necessarily must but might) influence them and if there is a reaction to a trait (not only the controversial ones but even just outstanding ones), this will have an influence on them growing up.

To maybe give an example (because I have an easier time making clear what I mean this way): Let's say, a character is especially smart (to not take gender for once), then there will likely be reactions to that because it is out of the norm. This might make them haughty (because they believe they're better) or humble (because they believe that if they have an advantage in this regard, they should help others) or maybe they're thick-skinned and don't care at all. It might also influence what they want to do with their life (like becoming a scientist in a field where they believe advances are important or become a teacher to help others or maybe become something where their intelligence isn't at all necessary because they don't want to be reduced to only 'being smart' all their life).
In this example, being smart is not the only trait that's important to this character. It doesn't work on its own. This trait of intelligence will interact with other traits like their moral compass of what they believe is right and wrong, the way they relate to others (e.g., if they had a cold personality, they wouldn't care for being a teacher maybe?), the way they were raised (so parents' and other close characters' beliefs) etc.
And I believe that gender can be similar. While, yes, people are at the end of the day individuals, the traits that they have do interact with each other. So a gender trait could have the same influence on a characters' decisions just as any other trait (e.g., the intelligence trait). So I don't think it necessarily has to be left out in the creation process. It just shouldn't be the only trait that is given emphasis and pulls everything else after it. It is of the same importance as other traits, I'd say, not more, not less (unless you want it to be more or less).

So, maybe as a kind of summary: If I, personally, start with a blank piece of paper when creating my character, and then make a bullet point for everything I want them to be, I might start out with 'cold personality', 'smart', a couple others, and then maybe 'male'. And then in the next step, I would see how all these things come together. The character surely wouldn't be 'smart' because he is 'male' (because that'd be kinda dumb to base on each other?). But maybe he grew up in a household where men were expected to not show emotions? Or maybe he grew up in a progressive household where he was always encouraged to show emotions to the point he felt smothered and thus became 'cold'? But maybe he was just 'cold' from the very beginning and him being 'male' had no influence on that at all. Everything's possible. I can decide that slowly while looking at the other traits I decided on.

I hope this is somehow making sense. Anyway, that was what I was originally trying to say on the subject when I jumped in.

 

[SailusGebel]

I mean, at this point I'm essentially just nitpicking when you say that a gender-neutral method of writing a character is "superior", simply because I don't think that's the case. I mean, obviously we have a difference in views and we write in different genres, but considering a character's background (which includes gender) occurs extremely early in the writing process for me.

When I think of some of my favorite stories/manga, such as Oyasumi Punpun, Sangatsu no Lion, or Koe no Katachi, the story just wouldn't be the same if the author decided to write the story with the protagonist genderswapped. In many circumstances, authors have very specific messages and themes and ideas they want to convey, and it's not trivial for an author to start the story thinking that maybe Punpun will be a girl.

Again, I think that maybe we like different kinds of stories, so we appreciate different things.

I personally like stories when the author speaks from their heart, and writes something that is very meaningful fo themselves on an emotional level. In this circumstance, I think authors are best positioned to do this when they leverage their own life experiences and feelings, and you can almost never go wrong doing so because characters made this way will almost never seem flat.

I understand if lots of people don't feel like they have a "racial identity" or "gender identity", but contrarily there are also people who have it as a major part of themselves. Consequently, there really isn't a one-size-fits-all solution for this, and I sort of feel strongly reluctant to say that either one is "superior" -- and in a sense, my pushback comes from the perspective that neither are.

There are different ways to go about crafting characters, and different people will certainly appreciate different things.

Do you know what's funny? You said that the technique I've mentioned doesn't exactly work on some kind of works, and it isn't applicable in a more diverse range of genres. Yet you give me examples that are basically the same genre. Quite funny.
But alright, as I said before, I won't throw an example of my own as it would basically degrade to, yeah, nitpicking.
So you basically like autobiographies? But mixed in with a few artistic things here and there. The most incredible feat an author can achieve is creating the things you said, without using himself as an example. Without self-insert. That what you should strive to do. Yeah, you use your life experience, you do research, but you shouldn't use your life as a crutch. If you can't do anything except write a drama, using the experience of how you or your friend were bullied because of the thing 'x'. Well, you are a shit author. Who only wrote one good book. It's like a band with only one good song. One hit wonder, is it the right phrase? That's why you should strive to write different things and genres. To improve yourself, or else you would continuously repeat yourself(though fans would continue to like it, that's why I don't like fans and not a fan of anything). I don't mean you should never repeat yourself, but you should definitely leave your zone of comfort every now and again.
That's precisely why I like to read different kinds of works. I like Koe no Katachi, but I as well like Breaker. I like The Children's Teacher Mister Kwon, and I like Dokgo. I like Host club Ouran, and I like To love Ru. And so on. I read hentai works, for example, works of Ikuhana Niro, those that hold some kind of meaning.
You yourself, continue to throw at me books, with the same motif of psychological drama or discovering yourself or whatever else. Where the main point is that you can't swap characters. A good question for you, is there no GREAT works that you've read where you CAN swap characters? If there are no such books, well, perhaps you live in a bubble?
And lastly, I honestly don't understand why people are so afraid of saying that what they like is objectively bad works. They are defending their own interest like their life depends on it. I like a lot of great and shit works, I'm not afraid to say that the art IS objective and I don't like high-quality art. My novels are trash as well. But if you can't look at these things objectively, there is no bottom for you, from where you can jump upwards.

 

[SailusGebel]

This was actually what I was worried about because I have this bad habit of seriously derailing conversations so I didn't answer the questions in the hope it wouldn't detract too much from the rest. If you do want me to, I can go back and do it one-by-ine though. I'm just afraid I'll somehow cause a ton of sub-discussions again

What I wanted to say on the overall subject was really just what I said in my very first response though. I think your approach is very good for planning a character to make sure that it won't just revolve around a single trait of theirs (no matter what that trait is). On the other hand, I think that even if one includes this kind of controversial trait (like gender or race or sexuality), it can help make a well-rounded character because a characters' environment might (not necessarily must but might) influence them and if there is a reaction to a trait (not only the controversial ones but even just outstanding ones), this will have an influence on them growing up.

To maybe give an example (because I have an easier time making clear what I mean this way): Let's say, a character is especially smart (to not take gender for once), then there will likely be reactions to that because it is out of the norm. This might make them haughty (because they believe they're better) or humble (because they believe that if they have an advantage in this regard, they should help others) or maybe they're thick-skinned and don't care at all. It might also influence what they want to do with their life (like becoming a scientist in a field where they believe advances are important or become a teacher to help others or maybe become something where their intelligence isn't at all necessary because they don't want to be reduced to only 'being smart' all their life).
In this example, being smart is not the only trait that's important to this character. It doesn't work on its own. This trait of intelligence will interact with other traits like their moral compass of what they believe is right and wrong, the way they relate to others (e.g., if they had a cold personality, they wouldn't care for being a teacher maybe?), the way they were raised (so parents' and other close characters' beliefs) etc.
And I believe that gender can be similar. While, yes, people are at the end of the day individuals, the traits that they have do interact with each other. So a gender trait could have the same influence on a characters' decisions just as any other trait (e.g., the intelligence trait). So I don't think it necessarily has to be left out in the creation process. It just shouldn't be the only trait that is given emphasis and pulls everything else after it. It is of the same importance as other traits, I'd say, not more, not less (unless you want it to be more or less).

So, maybe as a kind of summary: If I, personally, start with a blank piece of paper when creating my character, and then make a bullet point for everything I want them to be, I might start out with 'cold personality', 'smart', a couple others, and then maybe 'male'. And then in the next step, I would see how all these things come together. The character surely wouldn't be 'smart' because he is 'male' (because that'd be kinda dumb to base on each other?). But maybe he grew up in a household where men were expected to not show emotions? Or maybe he grew up in a progressive household where he was always encouraged to show emotions to the point he felt smothered and thus became 'cold'? But maybe he was just 'cold' from the very beginning and him being 'male' had no influence on that at all. Everything's possible. I can decide that slowly while looking at the other traits I decided on.

I hope this is somehow making sense. Anyway, that was what I was originally trying to say on the subject when I jumped in.

Basically, what I wanted to say, is that Gender and Race, as traits, are severely overrated and usually lead to lazy writing. What you said is true, because it's basically the same thing. A Male can be cold because he was in a male household, or because he was in a female household, or because he was like that from the beginning. Do you notice something here? Gender doesn't matter AS MUCH if it matters at all. The race is the same. Because all the little things, all the little details, all the books, the interaction, the upbringing, a single phrase, cartoons, mangas, games, friends, and SO many more form us as a personality. A freaking climate can affect your personality. If you were bitten by a dog or scratched by a cat in your childhood. There are so many more things. And in the end, you say: Gender can be similar. Yeah, it can. A tiny little piece of our personality, it's overrated. We have feminine and masculine parts of ourselves. We are basically genderless if you don't take our body into consideration and equalize our upbringing. Why are there boyish girls? Or girlish boys? It's not how it should work. Oh, a gender theory got us covered, no it's not. Ever heard of an Androgyny? The history of this term, how it pops up in different cultures?

 

[minacia]

I think we have some major differences in the way that we see writing/stories.

Also, you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I've never said that you can't make a good story with a gender-neutral protagonist (Heavens no! There are plenty of great stories written in a that way). The main point that I recoiled against was the way that you suggested that it was the "superior" way to write characters... which just plainly isn't true...

Also, I sort of resent the fact that you call an entire genre of fiction "self-insert" when it's clearly not.

The bulk majority of Western literature that sits in the classics section (the kind that actually get published in paper and are read in school) usually consist of stories when the author has something powerful and meaningful to say. By no means is it "self-insert" or "autobiographical" just because they heavily leverage their own own life experiences and feelings when they craft their story.

To me, writing is a medium to say something, and all writing should have a purpose.

I don't think there is anything wrong with writing one genre is that is what you want to write. Author's aren't judged on the ability to write a diversity of content; otherwise we'd be asking every author to write in every single genre (and frankly, most of us don't want to). Personally, I write because I have certain ideas I want to express, and writing is an effective way to reframe and express it.

Again (I feel like I've said this billions of times already), but different people write for different reasons.

And also people create characters using different methods and strategies.

Readers are likewise equally diverse, and similarly look for different things.

I just don't think it's fair to say gender-neutral => superior, and writing with a lens on gender => lazy writing.