Would a high fantasy magic world have similar capabilities to modern tech?

[Anon_Y_Mousse]

Military, Industry, Agriculture etc...
Well, fantasy is obviously meant to be fantastical, so I get why a mediaval setting is perfect for this. But what if a magical society attempted to use magic for things other than blasting the heads off of goblins and dragons?
This is assuming all the bells and whistles, like magic circles, mana stones, potions etc.
How similar would their magic tech be with our own? What aspects would it surpass or fall behind in?
Sure you can argue that with magic there's no need for progression, but if they have a reason to gather up and form an actual civilization beyond villages. Surely there must be a reason to improve the industry?

Sorry, post-nut clarity hit me hard.

 

[MR.DANTE]

the point of magic is that you cant do it here, if you create a magic system just to do tech stuf it just become soft science with plot armor when you cant explain why it works, if you have a novel and you have people research magic then come up with a pc for example its not really different then somehow understanding to code informations and run machines with electricity resulting in people coming up with the pc in the real world, you just changed the power source and the way information is coded and called it magic. At this point its just science with a different name.
Ps all hard magic system do this thing but it its still fantasy since its different than the real world

 

[gogo7966]

magic can be anything and therefor means nothing on it's own so this question is quite meaningless

This is assuming all the bells and whistles, like magic circles, mana stones, potions etc.

all the bells and whistles? there are a billions of them and they don't fit together

 

[Reisinling]

If magic existed in our world we wouldn't call it magic. It would just be another part of science. You could imagine other world without electricity, where some 20 year old virgin would write their webnovel about "I'm isekaied as the strongest electrician!" (their internet works on steam... or light)

Alternatively there is this "washy-feely" magic, which changes with time and users, that can make stuff happen depending on the tone of the story (Harry potter/shounen mangas). I have no problem with that.

 

[MR.DANTE]

Ok, more focused and pertinent answer.
depend on how easy it is gather your magical power source.
If things are powered by mana for example and mana is abundant in nature and mages naturally replenish their mana reserves than life is easy, no real challenge on how to get power, you just have to focus on efficiency and gathering new knowledge, what better of then us.
If things are by mana but you need manastones or other similar resources, wich are in short supply,there is a finite number of them and mages need manastones to recharge their reserves life is pretty hard you might want to find another power source to power your tech slightly better of then us.
Same example as before but mamastone are created naturally at high rate so there is an infinite supply, life is not as easy as the first example but you are still better of then us by a considerable margin since you can just use manastones to power stuff.

The entire problem is centered around how easy is to get your power source, for now on Earth is really hard, we have to convert fuel to hear, then to kinetic, then electricity or start a nuclear reaction to get heat that we convert in to kinetic so we can get electricity, renuable energy is more or less the same, we just steal away some of the energy that is being expended on the planet and redirect it to other purposes, still incredibly hard.
If you can just use mana or whatever you have directly the only problem is how much of it you have, its still easier than for us since you have a direct power source to use and you don't need any transformation but if you don't have enough of it you might want to use something else

 

[Anon_Y_Mousse]

If magic existed in our world we wouldn't call it magic. It would just be another part of science. You could imagine other world without electricity, where some 20 year old virgin would write their webnovel about "I'm isekaied as the strongest electrician!" (their internet works on steam... or light)

Alternatively there is this "washy-feely" magic, which changes with time and users, that can make stuff happen depending on the tone of the story (Harry potter/shounen mangas). I have no problem with that.

the point of magic is that you cant do it here, if you create a magic system just to do tech stuf it just become soft science with plot armor when you cant explain why it works, if you have a novel and you have people research magic then come up with a pc for example its not really different then somehow understanding to code informations and run machines with electricity resulting in people coming up with the pc in the real world, you just changed the power source and the way information is coded and called it magic. At this point its just science with a different name.
Ps all hard magic system do this thing but it its still fantasy since its different than the real world

Sorry if I didn't make it clear. I meant a magic society that produces things similar to modern tech, not straight up replicating it. Like making a chimera for public transport or magic reinforcement to make buildings structurally stronger.

I don't think it would progress the same way as science, I doubt there would be computers if a mage could just do magic to process stuff in his own brain.

magic can be anything and therefor means nothing on it's own so this question is quite meaningless

all the bells and whistles? there are a billions of them and they don't fit together

While that is true, there's a general "concept" of magic. The type you see in many Isekai anime, they're basically almost the same thing, just different terminologies.

 

[Amok]

Anon, you're making sense.

There are definitely worlds out there with a more high-tech take on magic. Two examples I'll list here is the Numenera universe, Wolfe's Sun and Urth series and Vance's Dying Earth. Many more examples, folk like China Mieville I suppose, haven't read that widely though.
These examples may not be high fantasy, but they are instances of where tech has become so complex that it is magic, and these works blur the lines so far that the reader comes to the conclusion some aspects of the world are indeed pure magic, whether achieved through altering the very fabric of the cosmos or through the pure force of will.
The magicians of Ambullion with their demons and their ability to reach many aeons into the fragmented past are the magicians of the far future who exist in a post-industrial world, a world where the sun is dying, genetically engineered beasts roam all the badlands and darkest forests. demons are more entities of code and abhorrent tech, yet can be banished with the correct rituals, employing machines that are not understood yet still function. This is my personal definition of High Fantasy, the kinda story I want to read, and hopefully through practice, come to write.

I also mention Lovecraft here, with his world being our own, one on the cusp of post-industrialism, unaware of the ancient eldritch horrors that lurk at the core of reality.

 

[MR.DANTE]

If magic existed in our world we wouldn't call it magic. It would just be another part of science. You could imagine other world without electricity, where some 20 year old virgin would write their webnovel about "I'm isekaied as the strongest electrician!" (their internet works on steam... or light)

Alternatively there is this "washy-feely" magic, which changes with time and users, that can make stuff happen depending on the tone of the story (Harry potter/shounen mangas). I have no problem with that.

that's basically what i said, i just pointed out that's still fantasy since its different from the real world so you can call it magic

 

[Reisinling]

that's basically what i said, i just pointed out that's still fantasy since its different from the real world so you can call it magic

yeah, I started replying before your response so now we have 2 similar answers ;)

 

[TremendousHuman]

Military, Industry, Agriculture etc...
Well, fantasy is obviously meant to be fantastical, so I get why a mediaval setting is perfect for this. But what if a magical society attempted to use magic for things other than blasting the heads off of goblins and dragons?
This is assuming all the bells and whistles, like magic circles, mana stones, potions etc.
How similar would their magic tech be with our own? What aspects would it surpass or fall behind in?
Sure you can argue that with magic there's no need for progression, but if they have a reason to gather up and form an actual civilization beyond villages. Surely there must be a reason to improve the industry?

Sorry, post-nut clarity hit me hard.

The last sentence was very unnecessary.

I've talked about this idea a bunch and even tried to write a few things with it, but here's my pov:
magic >>> science. Why? You ask. Because it's supernatural, I answer. It's literally in the word: super-natural, above-natural. Magic literally warps reality in some ways and there are certainly ways to abuse it to a ridiculous degree, while science only works within the very pressing constrains of the very natural reality where you can't find an exploit for infinite energy and practically free production.
Now, let's compare technological capabilities, military capabilities, availability and cultural development one by one. Obviously, the magical civilization compared to is theoretical but I will write why I think it doesn't seem ridiculous.
1) technological capabilities: magic is better. No competition. Most spells that are very cliche in fantasy are something we just can't do. Healing, flight, actual telepathy, information transition, literal teleportation, storage of quickly spoiled materials, production of raw materials and procurement of them are far too easy in a fantasy world.
2) military capabilities: obviously, fantasy wins. If your soldiers aren't afraid of bullets and if by the time you bring out bigger guns they will have mascacred you, you basically lose. Not to mention that most delicate tech would fail because of spells, since spells literally warp reality.
3) availability: a common trope is that only a small number of people can use magic. Expect great, ridiculous, nightmarish levels of wealth and opportunity inequality. 1 percent of 1 percent owning everything and everyone kind of inequality. The common man would wear rugs passed down by their grandparents, while the wealthy would live in a hyper-futuristic utopias. And that would be basically unfixable, since only the few are able to use magic in the first place.
4) Theoretical science and math (or things analogous to them) would be developed to an unthinkable degree. Our science is built on a mathematical foundation, what would a super-science that requires to go beyond the natural require? I fail to imagine. But I can guess that all and any natural science to know how to warp it.

TLDR: virgin modern civilization vs chad fantasy civilization

 

[SailusGebel]

The last sentence was very unnecessary.

I've talked about this idea a bunch and even tried to write a few things with it, but here's my pov:
magic >>> science. Why? You ask. Because it's supernatural, I answer. It's literally in the word: super-natural, above-natural. Magic literally warps reality in some ways and there are certainly ways to abuse it to a ridiculous degree, while science only works within the very pressing constrains of the very natural reality where you can't find an exploit for infinite energy and practically free production.
Now, let's compare technological capabilities, military capabilities, availability and cultural development one by one. Obviously, the magical civilization compared to is theoretical but I will write why I think it doesn't seem ridiculous.
1) technological capabilities: magic is better. No competition. Most spells that are very cliche in fantasy are something we just can't do. Healing, flight, actual telepathy, information transition, literal teleportation, storage of quickly spoiled materials, production of raw materials and procurement of them are far too easy in a fantasy world.
2) military capabilities: obviously, fantasy wins. If your soldiers aren't afraid of bullets and if by the time you bring out bigger guns they will have mascacred you, you basically lose. Not to mention that most delicate tech would fail because of spells, since spells literally warp reality.
3) availability: a common trope is that only a small number of people can use magic. Expect great, ridiculous, nightmarish levels of wealth and opportunity inequality. 1 percent of 1 percent owning everything and everyone kind of inequality. The common man would wear rugs passed down by their grandparents, while the wealthy would live in a hyper-futuristic utopias. And that would be basically unfixable, since only the few are able to use magic in the first place.
4) Theoretical science and math (or things analogous to them) would be developed to an unthinkable degree. Our science is built on a mathematical foundation, what would a super-science that requires to go beyond the natural require? I fail to imagine. But I can guess that all and any natural science to know how to warp it.

TLDR: virgin modern civilization vs chad fantasy civilization

You do understand that the things you deem as 'natural' are like that, only because science isn't developed well enough? We don't know anything about the world.

 

[PhillisCreziles]

Yes.
Although magic is going to be a lot more advanced because it is mainly because there aren't really any limits to it.

 

[Aureoled]

depends, if you're talking about magic without limitations, then probably not, cause science has alot of limitation and people abide that rule and make the most out of it under limitation, while if we use magic, we can just ignore these limitations and make the most efficient shit that isnt possible in normal scenerio. So it is heavily unlikely a normal fantasy world will develop like ours.

 

[TremendousHuman]

You do understand that the things you deem as 'natural' are like that, only because science isn't developed well enough? We don't know anything about the world.

It's the same as saying: "the devil may exist because we can't prove he doesn't". Sure, I take the assumption that our image of the world is fairly accurate, which it may or may not be, but I'm doing this because it's the best we have yet.
And even if we found that the world was a bigger and stranger place, magic would still be, by definition, supernatural. The rest is same as I told
Edit: "our image", as in the general scientific consensus as of today

 

[SailusGebel]

It's the same as saying: "the devil may exist because we can't prove he doesn't". Sure, I take the assumption that our image of the world is fairly accurate, which it may or may not be, but I'm doing this because it's the best we have yet.

Yep, you are right. What I was talking about is the following. Just because it's easier to imagine things done with magic doesn't equal magic being stronger than science.

 

[TremendousHuman]

Yep, you are right. What I was talking about is the following. Just because it's easier to imagine things done with magic doesn't equal magic being stronger than science.

But you said it yourself "easier to imagine things being done with magic". I don't know what you mean by "stronger" but that does seem pretty strong

 

[Echimera]

There are a lot of aspects to consider.
The rules and limitations of the specific magic system are a huge determining factor, but also things like the general environment.

In a world with what is usually called a hard magic system, magic would be a science like any other, and could be used to produce viable technology based on the specific rules. What this technology can do would depend on the specific rules.
A soft magic system on the other hand would most likely be too arbitrary and situational to use it for technology.

If the magic reinforces some form of government and/or culture over others (royals having stronger magic than most; divine magic of clergy having less limitations than other magic), this will impact the society a lot and may lead to highly advanced magitech civilizations where the culture might resemble something from our history.
Magic might also boost the standard of living faster than the culture itself advances, with similar results.

When it comes to the development of specific technologies, as in ways to utilize the available knowledge, both ideas and problems that need to be solved are important factors.
There are Isekai stories where the existence of certain magitech is explicitly the result of world travelers recreating something they know from their home world with the available tools, sometimes with better results than the original. Often, this is because of the outside perspective and knowledge allows them to combine magic in ways the natives haven't thought of yet (which could be because their understanding and use of magic has made researching other fields like physics or chemistry less interesting).
Some advancements, like in medicine, may be hampered by the existence and availability of cure-all spells.
Then there are many technologies we use today that were byproducts of other, sometimes completely unrelated, research. So without someone to actually develop the technology (or magitech), there may be no demand for it in the first place.

 

[SailusGebel]

But you said it yourself "easier to imagine things being done with magic". I don't know what you mean by "stronger" but that does seem pretty strong

What I mean by "It's harder to imagine" = harder to abandon all your current beliefs about our world. The thing is, you can slap the word Science upon anything when writing a story. You come up with nearly magical technologies that don't abide by a single scientific rule and say: "WELP, SCIENCE HAPPENED." Such a story would be pissed on. All the while, you can do a story, and make magic that bends all the rules, op as hell, and simply describe it as HIGH MAGIC. Such a story would be pissed on, as well. But, there are fewer people who are magic nerds than people who finished school. A quick example of what I'm saying is the Warhammer 40k universe. Where technology fucking shit on any magic, gods, etc. But it isn't explained at all thus it's shitty worldbuilding, and people don't even think that it's sci-fi or anything. It's space fantasy, because, without proper explanation, people won't believe that it's scientifically possible. While magic, people can and will believe eagerly.

 

[TremendousHuman]

What I mean by "It's harder to imagine" = harder to abandon all your current beliefs about our world. The thing is, you can slap the word Science upon anything when writing a story. You come up with nearly magical technologies that don't abide by a single scientific rule and say: "WELP, SCIENCE HAPPENED." Such a story would be pissed on. All the while, you can do a story, and make magic that bends all the rules, op as hell, and simply describe it as HIGH MAGIC. Such a story would be pissed on, as well. But, there are fewer people who are magic nerds than people who finished school. A quick example of what I'm saying is the Warhammer 40k universe. Where technology fucking shit on any magic, gods, etc. But it isn't explained at all thus it's shitty worldbuilding, and people don't even think that it's sci-fi or anything. It's space fantasy, because, without proper explanation, people won't believe that it's scientifically possible. While magic, people can and will believe eagerly.

So, your point is... What exactly?

 

[SailusGebel]

So, your point is... What exactly?

Just because it's easier to imagine things done with magic doesn't equal magic being stronger than science.