My last attempt

[forli]

There are some tropes common in web novels that really rub me the wrong way. At first, I only thought of them as some really annoying stuff that I hated, but I kept getting into fights over it and it eventually became an obsession for me.

The thing is, I would like to discuss these tropes in a reasonable way. But every time I think about it I remember the previous fights and how I was insulted, and I think that if I try to explain myself nobody will listen. So I make a post "insulting back" that people think is me starting trouble out of nowhere since they don't know what's in my head, and what would be literary criticism becomes accusations of immorality instead. Even when I try to go back to writing my own novel, I start falling into this downward spiral instead.

Now it's gotten to the point where people are telling me to delete my novel and leave, part of me thinks they are right, part of me thinks that they are protecting an echo chamber. But I once used to enjoy writing and became invested in my novel, I don't want to give it all up so easily, so I want to try talking about these tropes one last time.

It's impossible for me to have a reasonable discussion with all the baggage of the previous fights, so I want to forget everything and ask you all to forget as well. I want to try pretending that this is my first time bringing it all up.



So these are the topics I want to discuss in this thread:

-I really hate the trope of making humans evil, most authors go too far with it since every novel that has humans as the 'good guys' still shows humans being the most flawed compared to the other 'good' races, so they have to exaggerate to an absurd degree to be different. But more than anything, humans are always the weakest race and the ones that are made to suffer the most, both when they are good and when they are bad, that makes them the most sympathetic people to me and makes them a really bad fit for the villain role.

-I also hate races where all of them are 'nice' because they are just born 'nice' and that's used to show how much better than humans they are (beastkin are the worst offenders at this). Not only is it unbelievable, as any animal that develops intelligence would have all the same flaws that are often attributed to humans, but the idea that the way to have a utopia is to be born better is just wrong. In the real world, the only reason we managed to develop a society that's somewhat better than our ancestors has been millennia of mistakes, suffering, and struggle. It feels wrong to say that humans are bad because we were not born perfect, and those perfect races always feel so unlikeable to me.

-I hate when a novel tries to argue that a dragon or some other powerful being committing genocide is ok because they are 'superior' to humans. Part of it is because the only thing that ever seems to make the superior is their power, and also because that argument never seems to be accepted in any of the many novels that have humans killing or enslaving 'inferior' races.

-And I also hate the excuse for genocide that humans damage the environment so they need to be punished. It makes it sound like nature is the enemy of humanity and we should destroy it before it destroys us.

-One last thing I believe is that humans or any other race that has to work to develop their technology and/or magic are a lot more likable than the ones that have innate powers. So many novels try to paint a race as 'cool' because they are born strong.



Those are the topics I would like to discuss in this thread, and none of it is as big of a deal as I've made myself believe they are. You can agree, or you can disagree if you explain why.

But if once again the replies I get are all insults, then I'll give up on Scribble Hub for good and do what you want. I'll delete my novel and never come back.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

You can't make people forget about interactions, you could however make an entirely different account and form good connections with people on that one with no one knowing it's actually you.

 

[forli]

You can't make people forget about interactions, you could however make an entirely different account and form good connections with people on that one with no one knowing it's actually you.

Everyone will know it's me if I start talking about this stuff.

I cannot continue my novel in another account.

I don't like the idea that I have to hide who I am.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Everyone will know it's me if I start talking about this stuff.

I cannot continue my novel in another account.

I don't like the idea that I have to hide who I am.

Technically you're anonymous either way but whatever. Just a suggestion.

 

[Prince_Azmiran_Myrian]

I agree with you, except that I prefer having innate powers.

 

[Temple]

I have zero knowledge of your history, but I found that SH people are really chill. I also find nothing controversial about the points you made, and it sounds like an interesting story based on those. But if you say you kept getting into fights, then there is something questionable going on. Anyway, I'll just hang out in this thread and see why you keep getting into fights, as you mentioned.

 

[owotrucked]

My last attempt​

if once again the replies I get are all insults, then I'll give up on Scribble Hub for good and do what you want.

people are telling me to delete my novel and leave

That's messed up, everyone has the right to express their opinions, no matter how retarded they might look to others

You can agree, or you can disagree

You know, there's not a lot of objectivity and rationality to what we enjoy or hate. Explaining why I hate fish so people should stop eating fish wouldn't lead to anywhere.

Likewise, if some readers enjoy genocide because it fulfills underlying senses of power, you won't achieve anything by telling them their trope suck. It's like a game journalist complaining about orcs being enemies in a video game because they see it as black racism.

So these are the topics I want to discuss in this thread:

-I really hate [...]

-I also hate [...]

-I hate [...]

-And I also hate [...]

All of your points make a lot of sense, specifically in the context of your internal logic for justification and how your perceive believability.

Regarding some points:

a dragon or some other powerful being committing genocide is ok because they are 'superior' to humans

"ok" sounds like a moral statement. Are you sure the narrator makes a moral statement about this? What is your vision of morality and where does it apply for you? What purpose does it aim for?

Humans have been slaughtering other species, and because we're strong, there's no one else out there to give us a moral spanking, except for nature backfiring on us. Anthropocentrism has been here for millenia, all lives are means to human's ends. Culturally, God's words in the bible is that human have dominion over the Earth. If animals slightly inconvenience us, they get terminated. There's plenty of time where morons hunt to extinction, remove or relocate species just to horribly backfire or for the fun of it (damn researchers)

Painting it as "ok" or not changes absolutely nothing, we just do it. Likewise, a slightly annoyed dragon would prolly murder us without a blink and no one would be there to keep them accountable.

So I wouldn't be surprised if a story made dragon go scott-free after murder, and everyone are just shitting their pants to not anger it

excuse for genocide that humans damage the environment so they need to be punished.

That reason works because if a species need a specific environment and humans want dominion over it, then the latter are an existential threats. If it's a god, they might get rid of the humans to protect their other creation or some shit like that.


Overall, it feels like you're annoyed by third person narrator giving their subjective opinion.
For me, the most important part is that the goals and impulses behind murder are believable. Everything else is just noise.

race that has to work to develop their technology and/or magic are a lot more likable

It hits the underdog taste alright

I want to forget everything and ask you all to forget as well. I want to try pretending that this is my first time bringing it all up.

 

[NotaNuffian]

To be honest, I think that in written works, there needs to be a clear good guy/ bad guy because it is easier for the readers.

You can make it complicated, with the italics "can" because then keeping track will be a mental gymnastic that I hate. Take Worth the Candle, half the times the relations are flung up and down and round about until I just said "damn this to dropped hell" and drop the work. I like my good guys good and bad guys bad, their objective can be as simple as "I want to" to complex ones like "being good equals to becoming lord".

Also, I hate that beastkins are seen as "pure" and "good" as well. Because to me, they are backwards, not "good". You don't call a barbaric tribes "good", you just call them "simple" or "naive". For the record, they are "naive" not because they are stupid, but because they don't know. I am sure if they scheme daily, they will be just as bad as "humans", except they also have improved body functions.

As for a "superior race being mean" thing... you can look at humans.

Humanity is the worst thing, so far, that is born into this world.

 

[Lloyd]

Delete your novel and leave.

 

[SomethingStuffHappend]

Don’t delete your novel I just started reading it.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Aight. I agree that being racist to humans and making other species superior to them is stupid. If fantasy races actually existed too would be fallen. Most people would also agree you shouldn't justify genocide. Still, filth will always be popular and we may never know why.

You may have a point when you attack what is popular on SH, but SH's problem isn't genocide, It's smut.

 

[HelloHound]

you make reasonable points and I'm sorry that people have been butting heads over it, I don't think that a lot of writers, especially new ones, are going to be willing to put away most of what you have issues with as those are easy ways of throwing in stuff into the story for tension and a clear side to root for

 

[owotrucked]

Aight. I agree that being racist to humans and making other species superior to them is stupid. If fantasy races actually existed too would be fallen. Most people would also agree you shouldn't justify genocide. Still, filth will always be popular and we may never know why.

Don't forget that we only have his opinion of the stories after it went through his lens. There's a chance that the original stories aren't even remotely like how he describes them. Even if that's the case, is he just complaining about bad stories being bad or reader's taste?

but SH's problem isn't genocide, It's smut.

Not you too?!

 

[MintiLime]

I think humans being the weakest AND the worst could be a really interesting dynamic.

For example, humans might be the worst BECAUSE they are the weakest. Being lowest on the totem pole causes stress, aggravation, and in-fighting. Like when a particular species of animal kills each other over food because they don’t have enough of it to go around. Resource limitation can cause lots of yuckiness in the animal world including incest, cannibalism, etc. It would make sense that should humans be put into these situations, we would face the same issues.

Also, if humans are the worst but also relatively strong, I think we get into worse tropes. Like beastmen slave girls. Not my thing.

I also feel that authors try to avoid humans being strong and best in novels because it can easily lead to glossing over real world issues in the human race. Like yeah, we have all kind of —-ists but at least we aren’t orcs that eat our young! Having humans be bad in a sense allows more realistic villains and issues.

Humans have been the top of the food chain for so long, having fantasy races be stronger allows for a real sense of crisis. Having them be “better” can also play into feeling of inferiority, highlight where humans fall short of what we could be, etc. This allows for easier social commentary by example.

TLDR: It’s very hard to write the next Lord of the Rings. These tropes make it easier to have social commentary

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Don't forget that we only have his opinion of the stories after it went through his lens. There's a chance that the original stories aren't even remotely like how he describes them. Even if that's the case, is he just complaining about bad stories being bad or reader's taste?

If we take him at his word, "this story justifies genocide" doesn't sound like reader's taste.

Not you too?!

Smut is sin. Almost as bad as break dancing.

 

[MintiLime]

There are some tropes common in web novels that really rub me the wrong way. At first, I only thought of them as some really annoying stuff that I hated, but I kept getting into fights over it and it eventually became an obsession for me.

The thing is, I would like to discuss these tropes in a reasonable way. But every time I think about it I remember the previous fights and how I was insulted, and I think that if I try to explain myself nobody will listen. So I make a post "insulting back" that people think is me starting trouble out of nowhere since they don't know what's in my head, and what would be literary criticism becomes accusations of immorality instead. Even when I try to go back to writing my own novel, I start falling into this downward spiral instead.

Now it's gotten to the point where people are telling me to delete my novel and leave, part of me thinks they are right, part of me thinks that they are protecting an echo chamber. But I once used to enjoy writing and became invested in my novel, I don't want to give it all up so easily, so I want to try talking about these tropes one last time.

It's impossible for me to have a reasonable discussion with all the baggage of the previous fights, so I want to forget everything and ask you all to forget as well. I want to try pretending that this is my first time bringing it all up.

I just want to say I have no idea who you are, what you’ve said, or what in the world could have happened to make those arguments so messy. I don’t think any of your points are super contentious.
I live my life by: Don’t like? Don’t read. You don’t HAVE to read every novel. Some are bad, some are good, some are ableist fantasies for psycho wannabes. It’s not worth it to fight. Go outside, touch some grass, get an allergic reaction to poison Ivy… ok maybe not that but you get my point :)

 

[Deleted member 113259]

I think humans being the weakest AND the worst could be a really interesting dynamic.

For example, humans might be the worst BECAUSE they are the weakest. Being lowest on the totem pole causes stress, aggravation, and in-fighting. Like when a particular species of animal kills each other over food because they don’t have enough of it to go around. Resource limitation can cause lots of yuckiness in the animal world including incest, cannibalism, etc. It would make sense that should humans be put into these situations, we would face the same issues.

Also, if humans are the worst but also relatively strong, I think we get into worse tropes. Like beastmen slave girls. Not my thing.

I also feel that authors try to avoid humans being strong and best in novels because it can easily lead to glossing over real world issues in the human race. Like yeah, we have all kind of —-ists but at least we aren’t orcs that eat our young! Having humans be bad in a sense allows more realistic villains and issues.

Humans have been the top of the food chain for so long, having fantasy races be stronger allows for a real sense of crisis. Having them be “better” can also play into feeling of inferiority, highlight where humans fall short of what we could be, etc. This allows for easier social commentary by example.

TLDR: It’s very hard to write the next Lord of the Rings. These tropes make it easier to have social commentary

You don't really need to make it humans for any of that to apply. If you can't relate to a society because they have pointy ears there might be something wrong with you.

 

[MintiLime]

You don't really need to make it humans for any of that to apply. If you can't relate to a society because they have pointy ears there might be something wrong with you.

Technically, we don’t need humans in the story at all. Just as a generalization, humans are very good at “other” ing. I think for beginner authors and hobbyists, it’s easier to make the comparison blatant rather than hope the readers recognize that humans may be the heroes in the story but are the orcs in real life.

 

[Deleted member 113259]

Technically, we don’t need humans in the story at all. Just as a generalization, humans are very good at “other” ing. I think for beginner authors and hobbyists, it’s easier to make the comparison blatant rather than hope the readers recognize that humans may be the heroes in the story but are the orcs in real life.

I agree. We don't need humans. They are there to generalize. This is why whenever I write generic fantasy races I either integrate them all into one society so that dwarves are pretty much humans with different features or I full-on generalize and use the races as tools to portray different vices in man.

 

[owotrucked]

If we take him at his word, "this story justifies genocide" doesn't sound like reader's taste.

I hope so, everyone can agree that webnovels are badly written, but complaining about reader liking shitty stories would be delusional egocentrism

Smut is sin. Almost as bad as break dancing.