My last attempt

NotaNuffian

This does spark joy.
Joined
Nov 26, 2019
Messages
3,684
Points
183
My problem is not that it happens, my problem is that many novels try to make it look like it's not a bad thing.
... What novels are you reading?

Superior race being mean is always a hot topic and motivation for Chinese Main Characters because these main characters are from the "lower race" and hence, the underdog to climb. Then if you do a simple logic of "meany is baddie", then obviously the superior race is bad.

Or are you referring to how humans are bastards and authors refusing to acknowledging that? If that is the case, then all I can say is authors are humans and so are you. Personal perspective and hypocrism is a thing.

Which part of my sentence are you referring as "make it not look like a bad thing"?
… barbaric tribe? What do you mean by that? In what way would a tribe classify as barbaric to you?
This might sound insulting and rude, but anything that does not adhere to my standard of a civilized society.

Aka running water, clean toilet, use and provide utensils for food and drink, etc.

Now include having wifi/ mobile data.

Is it myopic and disgusting? Yes. Would I perhaps grow to love the tribes if I am more tolerating? Maybe, but I am a pansy for comfort.

If I am just there for photo taking and "have an experience", sure I can suck it up. But if you tell me to stay there forever and ever, tell me where is the nearest tall place.
 
D

Deleted member 113259

Guest
... What novels are you reading?

Superior race being mean is always a hot topic and motivation for Chinese Main Characters because these main characters are from the "lower race" and hence, the underdog to climb. Then if you do a simple logic of "meany is baddie", then obviously the superior race is bad.

Or are you referring to how humans are bastards and authors refusing to acknowledging that? If that is the case, then all I can say is authors are humans and so are you. Personal perspective and hypocrism is a thing.

Which part of my sentence are you referring as "make it not look like a bad thing"?

This might sound insulting and rude, but anything that does not adhere to my standard of a civilized society.

Aka running water, clean toilet, use and provide utensils for food and drink, etc.

Now include having wifi/ mobile data.

Is it myopic and disgusting? Yes. Would I perhaps grow to love the tribes if I am more tolerating? Maybe, but I am a pansy for comfort.

If I am just there for photo taking and "have an experience", sure I can suck it up. But if you tell me to stay there forever and ever, tell me where is the nearest tall place.
@NotaNuffian rn:
 

Sleds

I'm looking for Disney Sleds
Joined
Jul 24, 2023
Messages
1,241
Points
113
There are some tropes common in web novels that really rub me the wrong way. At first, I only thought of them as some really annoying stuff that I hated, but I kept getting into fights over it and it eventually became an obsession for me.

The thing is, I would like to discuss these tropes in a reasonable way. But every time I think about it I remember the previous fights and how I was insulted, and I think that if I try to explain myself nobody will listen. So I make a post "insulting back" that people think is me starting trouble out of nowhere since they don't know what's in my head, and what would be literary criticism becomes accusations of immorality instead. Even when I try to go back to writing my own novel, I start falling into this downward spiral instead.

Now it's gotten to the point where people are telling me to delete my novel and leave, part of me thinks they are right, part of me thinks that they are protecting an echo chamber. But I once used to enjoy writing and became invested in my novel, I don't want to give it all up so easily, so I want to try talking about these tropes one last time.

It's impossible for me to have a reasonable discussion with all the baggage of the previous fights, so I want to forget everything and ask you all to forget as well. I want to try pretending that this is my first time bringing it all up.



So these are the topics I want to discuss in this thread:

-I really hate the trope of making humans evil, most authors go too far with it since every novel that has humans as the 'good guys' still shows humans being the most flawed compared to the other 'good' races, so they have to exaggerate to an absurd degree to be different. But more than anything, humans are always the weakest race and the ones that are made to suffer the most, both when they are good and when they are bad, that makes them the most sympathetic people to me and makes them a really bad fit for the villain role.

-I also hate races where all of them are 'nice' because they are just born 'nice' and that's used to show how much better than humans they are (beastkin are the worst offenders at this). Not only is it unbelievable, as any animal that develops intelligence would have all the same flaws that are often attributed to humans, but the idea that the way to have a utopia is to be born better is just wrong. In the real world, the only reason we managed to develop a society that's somewhat better than our ancestors has been millennia of mistakes, suffering, and struggle. It feels wrong to say that humans are bad because we were not born perfect, and those perfect races always feel so unlikeable to me.

-I hate when a novel tries to argue that a dragon or some other powerful being committing genocide is ok because they are 'superior' to humans. Part of it is because the only thing that ever seems to make the superior is their power, and also because that argument never seems to be accepted in any of the many novels that have humans killing or enslaving 'inferior' races.

-And I also hate the excuse for genocide that humans damage the environment so they need to be punished. It makes it sound like nature is the enemy of humanity and we should destroy it before it destroys us.

-One last thing I believe is that humans or any other race that has to work to develop their technology and/or magic are a lot more likable than the ones that have innate powers. So many novels try to paint a race as 'cool' because they are born strong.



Those are the topics I would like to discuss in this thread, and none of it is as big of a deal as I've made myself believe they are. You can agree, or you can disagree if you explain why.

But if once again the replies I get are all insults, then I'll give up on Scribble Hub for good and do what you want. I'll delete my novel and never come back.
I don't know which novel you read, but you just have to look at our history to see how far humans can go even with their "allies" it's not strange that authors describe humans in all the stories are grey/ half bad.

When you come to a fantasy novel, they're a hierarchy of races if you want to class them by innate power, and Dragon are in almost all stories the strongest species due to their innate body strength and innate magical talent. I mean, it's a cliche, but that will not be extinct tomorrow. So what do you want species to do in these stories when a dragon annihilates anything? Fight with him? That just had more bbq for him in most of those stories, just let him be, and he goes fly away to sleep for centuries.

Also, you talked about beastman, but in most stories, they got enslaved by humans for centuries before they became free and fought for their freedom. That is how even if they are cannibal and vegetarian species, they still stick together as the same race to fight against opponents in most of these stories. In the other type of story, when their not "slave" they go by animal instinct. When there is a fight, they go head-on and fight, they're not cunning like humans who try to stab everyone behind their back if they can earn money by doing it.
 

SailusGebel

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2020
Messages
9,490
Points
233
How can we forget about the drama when you bring up the drama in the main post? :blob_hmm_two:
 

Succubiome

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2023
Messages
559
Points
108
- I agree on innately nice/evil races, that always feels lazy AF to me. Humans have a lot of potential for treating others well, and a lot of potential for treating others poorly. In general, those in power tend to be kinda bastards, though, especially in larger societies. Creatures that need to feed on other sentient creatures or with different cultures and different understandings of morality are fascinating to me, however.

- I hate when the novel itself from an omnipotent point of view argues that genocide or slavery or whatever is okay-- but I often find it interesting when characters inside novels argue for things I find immoral.

- Humans are slowly making the world unlivable for themselves IRL right now, so I'm not surprised people are fantasizing about nature genociding them. I don't think this is a useful way to look at things, but I understand it.

- Power and lack of power both interest me, and natural vs developed are different flavors that I think are interesting and change the characters who have them in interesting ways, and the dynamic between them is interesting too. Princess vs Social Climber or Innately OP Isekai Hero vs Had The Best Teachers vs Girl Who Just Trained Really Hard To Become Strong will naturally have different worldviews in ways that interest me, and that extends to fantastic races too. In IWAHIAWBMDSSPWM(ANIHTOH), I have the local humans being the innately weakest, since everyone else was summoned to this world for humans to take advantage of their power, except they enslaved everyone else and use a combination of social power and restrictive magic items to enforce their superiority, cause I find that interesting.

Really, there's lots of tropes some people use that I have zero interest in, and there's lots of tropes I use that some people have zero interest in, and that's fine IMO-- as long as it's not actually hurting or trashing on actual people IRL, or advocating for such, it's better to adopt a live and let live policy than endlessly fighting over morality until there is One Narrow Moral Standard Everyone Must Follow Or Else-- I don't think that'd make for very good stories.

An exception for me is when people are actively advocating for the actual harm of RL people or groups, or continually trashing on them, but that's different than being unfair to fictional people, in that actual people can get hurt.

---

If this thread is the last time you feel compelled to bring up this subject, I think you should stay.
 

Cipiteca396

More Gasoline 🎶
Joined
Jun 6, 2021
Messages
2,181
Points
153
-I really hate the trope of making humans evil, most authors go too far with it since every novel that has humans as the 'good guys' still shows humans being the most flawed compared to the other 'good' races, so they have to exaggerate to an absurd degree to be different.
Humans are quite common in real life. Chances are, you know one or two of them. And, chances are, not every experience you've had with them was good. Thus we know, humans are not an innately good race. They have flaws, to the point where some can be called evil. You can call it a trope, but it comes from authors 'writing what they know'. You know this; I've read your story.

However, again, this comes with another piece of external baggage. Most readers know that not all humans are evil. Even when most of the prominent human characters are exaggeratedly evil, there's an expectation that the ones offscreen are just normal people.

To defeat either or both of these expectations, an author will have to exaggerate. I've never seen it done successfully, because even in stories like Avatar where a possible takeaway is 'humans suck' (as my mom put it), the protagonist is still a former human. The viewer is still human. It's too difficult to convince the audience that humans are irredeemably evil or good. We know better.
People might be willing to suspend disbelief for the duration of the story, but they don't kill themselves afterwards. They don't believe.
But more than anything, humans are always the weakest race and the ones that are made to suffer the most, both when they are good and when they are bad, that makes them the most sympathetic people to me and makes them a really bad fit for the villain role.
Humans are the baseline; because that's what readers are familiar with. If you want to make a race whose defining trait is wisdom, but they're no wiser than humans, then it would be strange. So they have to be at least wiser than humans, probably significantly more so. But then, maybe you want to make another race known for being strong? Eventually you end up with the baseline humans being the 'weakest' race, even though they aren't actually any weaker than in real life.

Though that's not always true either. I know a race that has the defining trait of being the weakest. It's the Goblin, not the Human. Nobody argues when a goblin is the villain, though? They're the underdog, but they're so damn evil that nobody cares. A type of evil that just can't be believed if it came from humans- but these aren't humans.

I've definitely seen cases where they aren't the weakest, but that's a subversion of the base trope. Just like humans having +1 to every stat in DnD 5e (and thus being 'the strongest'), it's not the norm.

TBH, this is your weakest point. Humans are sympathetic because they're 'like you', not because they're innately weak. There's no pity for the grass, for the trees, for the pigs and the birds, and certainly not for the goblin. Only for the human? No, I understand that isn't true. That's a different point for later. It's not that you don't sympathize with others, it's that you sympathize too much for humans. That's just an innate bias that comes from being human. That's not a personal flaw, but it is something you can overcome if you try. Perhaps you should get a cat?
-I also hate races where all of them are 'nice' because they are just born 'nice' and that's used to show how much better than humans they are (beastkin are the worst offenders at this). Not only is it unbelievable, as any animal that develops intelligence would have all the same flaws that are often attributed to humans,
I've honestly never seen beastkin portrayed as innately 'nice'. The closest it ever gets is either making them 'pets' like cat and dog people, or invoking the noble savages trope- which isn't 'nice' at all, just 'noble'. Either way is somewhat... patronizing, in my mind.

If it is done though, it's just another hat. You can call it lazy writing and be done with it.
but the idea that the way to have a utopia is to be born better is just wrong. In the real world, the only reason we managed to develop a society that's somewhat better than our ancestors has been millennia of mistakes, suffering, and struggle. It feels wrong to say that humans are bad because we were not born perfect, and those perfect races always feel so unlikeable to me.
Agreed. Sort of. Hypothetically, if a race was born better, if they could exist without mistakes, suffering or struggle, I would say that was good.

I resent my flaws, and the flaws of the flawed humans that inhabit this flawed world. I would be extremely jealous of someone who didn't have to experience that. And I would love them the same way I love excellent drawings, or a good game. I don't enjoy those things for all of the hardship that went into making them. I enjoy the final product. I can admire the strength and dedication it took to push through the struggle of making them. I can even overlook flaws in the final product. But I don't resent the good parts. Those are the reason I choose to exist.

I would like it very much if humans could be elevated to that level of art. (But not turned into literal 'art', please. :blob_cringe: I'm not fond of taxidermy.)
-I hate when a novel tries to argue that a dragon or some other powerful being committing genocide is ok because they are 'superior' to humans. Part of it is because the only thing that ever seems to make the superior is their power, and also because that argument never seems to be accepted in any of the many novels that have humans killing or enslaving 'inferior' races.
I hate that too. I've never actually read a story like that, but I know of at least one prominent set of stories like that from the results. Stupid thing.

Though... Don't look at bad writing and think that good writing is bad. It's good that the humans are getting called out for doing bad things. It would be better if everyone got called out for it.

And don't confuse a story where genocide or slavery happen as a story where they're justified. You need a straw man to show the thing is bad, after all. :blobrofl::blob_thor::blob_thor:

Or it's just more 'write what you know'...
-And I also hate the excuse for genocide that humans damage the environment so they need to be punished. It makes it sound like nature is the enemy of humanity and we should destroy it before it destroys us.
Nature is the one thing that's overwhelmingly more powerful than humans. It's the only thing that can punish humanity for its crimes. Just like a dragon that can destroy without consequence, humanity can take and take and nothing will change, because nothing can stop it. Nothing except nature.

So nature becomes the tool of an author that wants humanity to learn from its mistakes instead of keep making them. Flood, fire, storm, quake. It's karma in action- except it's obviously not, because nature itself doesn't intend to punish. That's a bit of artistic liberty.

On the other hand, humans know that nature can destroy humanity. It's natural to fear something that's stronger than you, and more so to try to become stronger and secure your survival. In that sense, it's a vicious cycle. Humans fear nature, humans try to destroy nature, nature destroys humans, (the surviving) humans fear nature.

The 'moral' is that humans should just love nature, but how can you love something that keeps knocking your house down? :blob_hmm_two:
-One last thing I believe is that humans or any other race that has to work to develop their technology and/or magic are a lot more likable than the ones that have innate powers. So many novels try to paint a race as 'cool' because they are born strong.
That I have to disagree with. I've seen too many cases where humans didn't have to work for anything and still had everything they ever wanted. You can look at that and think, 'They should have it all taken away and be forced to earn a living'. But I'd rather just elevate everyone to the same position. Isn't it better if everyone gets what they want, instead of no one?

Though it's not exactly what I want, I rather like the concept of Superman, reaching down to help the little people.

Obviously, I don't see a problem with learning or growing stronger through effort. I'm just... so tired... All the time...
I was thinking about how to reply to all the people that were actually posting about the topic of this thread but there were too many and I wasn't sure,
Take your time. One comment at a time. Slice it up into sentences or paragraphs, analyze, assume the writer has the best intentions, and then respond. There's no time limit.
1691440771540.png
Ignore (with a capital I) the trolls and haters.

For the rest, I still suggest finding a therapist. You'll feel so much better if you can talk to a real person who's willing to hear you out and offer comfort. You'll never be able to feel the kindness in a person's writing as long as you aren't looking for it, but a living person can make themselves known to you.
 

MintiLime

Unofficial Class President, Author
Joined
Jul 1, 2023
Messages
611
Points
93
Humans are quite common in real life. Chances are, you know one or two of them. And, chances are, not every experience you've had with them was good. Thus we know, humans are not an innately good race. They have flaws, to the point where some can be called evil. You can call it a trope, but it comes from authors 'writing what they know'. You know this; I've read your story.

However, again, this comes with another piece of external baggage. Most readers know that not all humans are evil. Even when most of the prominent human characters are exaggeratedly evil, there's an expectation that the ones offscreen are just normal people.

To defeat either or both of these expectations, an author will have to exaggerate. I've never seen it done successfully, because even in stories like Avatar where a possible takeaway is 'humans suck' (as my mom put it), the protagonist is still a former human. The viewer is still human. It's too difficult to convince the audience that humans are irredeemably evil or good. We know better.
People might be willing to suspend disbelief for the duration of the story, but they don't kill themselves afterwards. They don't believe.

Humans are the baseline; because that's what readers are familiar with. If you want to make a race whose defining trait is wisdom, but they're no wiser than humans, then it would be strange. So they have to be at least wiser than humans, probably significantly more so. But then, maybe you want to make another race known for being strong? Eventually you end up with the baseline humans being the 'weakest' race, even though they aren't actually any weaker than in real life.

Though that's not always true either. I know a race that has the defining trait of being the weakest. It's the Goblin, not the Human. Nobody argues when a goblin is the villain, though? They're the underdog, but they're so damn evil that nobody cares. A type of evil that just can't be believed if it came from humans- but these aren't humans.

I've definitely seen cases where they aren't the weakest, but that's a subversion of the base trope. Just like humans having +1 to every stat in DnD 5e (and thus being 'the strongest'), it's not the norm.

TBH, this is your weakest point. Humans are sympathetic because they're 'like you', not because they're innately weak. There's no pity for the grass, for the trees, for the pigs and the birds, and certainly not for the goblin. Only for the human? No, I understand that isn't true. That's a different point for later. It's not that you don't sympathize with others, it's that you sympathize too much for humans. That's just an innate bias that comes from being human. That's not a personal flaw, but it is something you can overcome if you try. Perhaps you should get a cat?

I've honestly never seen beastkin portrayed as innately 'nice'. The closest it ever gets is either making them 'pets' like cat and dog people, or invoking the noble savages trope- which isn't 'nice' at all, just 'noble'. Either way is somewhat... patronizing, in my mind.

If it is done though, it's just another hat. You can call it lazy writing and be done with it.

Agreed. Sort of. Hypothetically, if a race was born better, if they could exist without mistakes, suffering or struggle, I would say that was good.

I resent my flaws, and the flaws of the flawed humans that inhabit this flawed world. I would be extremely jealous of someone who didn't have to experience that. And I would love them the same way I love excellent drawings, or a good game. I don't enjoy those things for all of the hardship that went into making them. I enjoy the final product. I can admire the strength and dedication it took to push through the struggle of making them. I can even overlook flaws in the final product. But I don't resent the good parts. Those are the reason I choose to exist.

I would like it very much if humans could be elevated to that level of art. (But not turned into literal 'art', please. :blob_cringe: I'm not fond of taxidermy.)

I hate that too. I've never actually read a story like that, but I know of at least one prominent set of stories like that from the results. Stupid thing.

Though... Don't look at bad writing and think that good writing is bad. It's good that the humans are getting called out for doing bad things. It would be better if everyone got called out for it.

And don't confuse a story where genocide or slavery happen as a story where they're justified. You need a straw man to show the thing is bad, after all. :blobrofl::blob_thor::blob_thor:

Or it's just more 'write what you know'...

Nature is the one thing that's overwhelmingly more powerful than humans. It's the only thing that can punish humanity for its crimes. Just like a dragon that can destroy without consequence, humanity can take and take and nothing will change, because nothing can stop it. Nothing except nature.

So nature becomes the tool of an author that wants humanity to learn from its mistakes instead of keep making them. Flood, fire, storm, quake. It's karma in action- except it's obviously not, because nature itself doesn't intend to punish. That's a bit of artistic liberty.

On the other hand, humans know that nature can destroy humanity. It's natural to fear something that's stronger than you, and more so to try to become stronger and secure your survival. In that sense, it's a vicious cycle. Humans fear nature, humans try to destroy nature, nature destroys humans, (the surviving) humans fear nature.

The 'moral' is that humans should just love nature, but how can you love something that keeps knocking your house down? :blob_hmm_two:

That I have to disagree with. I've seen too many cases where humans didn't have to work for anything and still had everything they ever wanted. You can look at that and think, 'They should have it all taken away and be forced to earn a living'. But I'd rather just elevate everyone to the same position. Isn't it better if everyone gets what they want, instead of no one?

Though it's not exactly what I want, I rather like the concept of Superman, reaching down to help the little people.

Obviously, I don't see a problem with learning or growing stronger through effort. I'm just... so tired... All the time...

Take your time. One comment at a time. Slice it up into sentences or paragraphs, analyze, assume the writer has the best intentions, and then respond. There's no time limit.
View attachment 20894Ignore (with a capital I) the trolls and haters.

For the rest, I still suggest finding a therapist. You'll feel so much better if you can talk to a real person who's willing to hear you out and offer comfort. You'll never be able to feel the kindness in a person's writing as long as you aren't looking for it, but a living person can make themselves known to you.
This is a really beautifully well thought out post.
 

ManwX

Im from a Timeline where nuclear war destroyed all
Joined
Mar 12, 2022
Messages
433
Points
103
There are some tropes common in web novels that really rub me the wrong way. At first, I only thought of them as some really annoying stuff that I hated, but I kept getting into fights over it and it eventually became an obsession for me.

The thing is, I would like to discuss these tropes in a reasonable way. But every time I think about it I remember the previous fights and how I was insulted, and I think that if I try to explain myself nobody will listen. So I make a post "insulting back" that people think is me starting trouble out of nowhere since they don't know what's in my head, and what would be literary criticism becomes accusations of immorality instead. Even when I try to go back to writing my own novel, I start falling into this downward spiral instead.

Now it's gotten to the point where people are telling me to delete my novel and leave, part of me thinks they are right, part of me thinks that they are protecting an echo chamber. But I once used to enjoy writing and became invested in my novel, I don't want to give it all up so easily, so I want to try talking about these tropes one last time.

It's impossible for me to have a reasonable discussion with all the baggage of the previous fights, so I want to forget everything and ask you all to forget as well. I want to try pretending that this is my first time bringing it all up.



So these are the topics I want to discuss in this thread:

-I really hate the trope of making humans evil, most authors go too far with it since every novel that has humans as the 'good guys' still shows humans being the most flawed compared to the other 'good' races, so they have to exaggerate to an absurd degree to be different. But more than anything, humans are always the weakest race and the ones that are made to suffer the most, both when they are good and when they are bad, that makes them the most sympathetic people to me and makes them a really bad fit for the villain role.

-I also hate races where all of them are 'nice' because they are just born 'nice' and that's used to show how much better than humans they are (beastkin are the worst offenders at this). Not only is it unbelievable, as any animal that develops intelligence would have all the same flaws that are often attributed to humans, but the idea that the way to have a utopia is to be born better is just wrong. In the real world, the only reason we managed to develop a society that's somewhat better than our ancestors has been millennia of mistakes, suffering, and struggle. It feels wrong to say that humans are bad because we were not born perfect, and those perfect races always feel so unlikeable to me.

-I hate when a novel tries to argue that a dragon or some other powerful being committing genocide is ok because they are 'superior' to humans. Part of it is because the only thing that ever seems to make the superior is their power, and also because that argument never seems to be accepted in any of the many novels that have humans killing or enslaving 'inferior' races.

-And I also hate the excuse for genocide that humans damage the environment so they need to be punished. It makes it sound like nature is the enemy of humanity and we should destroy it before it destroys us.

-One last thing I believe is that humans or any other race that has to work to develop their technology and/or magic are a lot more likable than the ones that have innate powers. So many novels try to paint a race as 'cool' because they are born strong.



Those are the topics I would like to discuss in this thread, and none of it is as big of a deal as I've made myself believe they are. You can agree, or you can disagree if you explain why.

But if once again the replies I get are all insults, then I'll give up on Scribble Hub for good and do what you want. I'll delete my novel and never come back.
THE EMPEROR APPROVES. WE ARE BETTER. THE ONES THAT WILL CONQUER THE GALAXY.


aside from my joke, I cant add much to the conversation. I think you have valid points. As someone who actually belives that humans are probably the most complex creatures out there. I believe sometimes sin fantasy and other fictional worlds nerf the hell out of greatness. Like there is no flawed species. We, humans, are fuckign insane as well. but we both spectrum ones that revolutionize our progress. there are also those who are the icon of sin in our species. Defining the absolute worst humanity has to offer. We are flawed but we are nearly perfect as well. The complexity is surreal within our species. Thats they beauty of our design. We are like a cursed tool. We are good to use but bad when conditions are met
 
Last edited:
Top