Can a war be noble?

Can a war be noble?

  • yes

  • No


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MrFunnySkeletonMan

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Apr 25, 2023
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Intentions sure, but one step onto the battlefield and they wash away. War is a hell where life has to end life to survive. It is a dirty, grimy thing but sometimes a necessary evil. To gain something, there must be sacrifice. Innocent lives have to be traded away for the ideals of those commanding the war. Can you call something that forces those who have done nothing wrong to die for some "greater purpose" noble? No, it is a brutal but necessary tool for society that one must hope to never need.
 

Sola-sama

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War is noble? It depends on how good (well-oiled) your propaganda is.

Like for when Ukraine was attacked by Russia (2022). Evil.
But when US invaded Iraq (2003), and Syria (2011), bombed Libya (2011) and did nothing in the Rwandan Genocide (1994). Good.

Note: I don't support any wars. I'm pointing out the coverage bias.
I second to this. "History is written by the winner" is a sentence that I've never gotten tired of. As long as the winners win, every cause is noble, even if that means ethnic cleansing. In WWII, the japs are evil because their soldiers commit war crimes, but when the 'winner' of the war literally commit genocide by dropping nukes and killed countless innocents, it is taken as a solution to the war. For the recent Ukraine-Russia war, Russia was branded as evil because they invaded Ukraine, but in the perspective of the Russian, they are simply threatened by the alliance's aggressive stance. It is the Cuban Missile Crisis all over again, only in modern times and the parties proxied.

Note: I also don't support any wars. I simply abhor coverage bias like what Herr Hans pointed out. Yes, both side (during WWII) commit war crimes, and yes, they should be punished for that, but in modern times, information warfare and proxy war is a thing so there's it's hard to point out the wrongs within the rights and the rights within the wrongs.
 
D

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I second to this. "History is written by the winner" is a sentence that I've never gotten tired of. As long as the winners win, every cause is noble, even if that means ethnic cleansing. In WWII, the japs are evil because their soldiers commit war crimes, but when the 'winner' of the war literally commit genocide by dropping nukes and killed countless innocents, it is taken as a solution to the war. For the recent Ukraine-Russia war, Russia was branded as evil because they invaded Ukraine, but in the perspective of the Russian, they are simply threatened by the alliance's aggressive stance. It is the Cuban Missile Crisis all over again, only in modern times and the parties proxied.

Note: I also don't support any wars. I simply abhor coverage bias like what Herr Hans pointed out. Yes, both side (during WWII) commit war crimes, and yes, they should be punished for that, but in modern times, information warfare and proxy war is a thing so there's it's hard to point out the wrongs within the rights and the rights within the wrongs.
If I may add, for those who'd say NATO is just a defensive alliance, Russian experience throughout their histories being invaded, Mongols (13th century), Poles (17th century), Napoleonic France (1812), and Nazi Germany (1941), with the last war costing the Soviet Union 27 million deaths (recorded) caused paranoia in the Soviet/Russian psyche. No one would want a 'rival' alliance with a history of regime changes (Yugoslavia 1998, Iraq 2003, Libya 2011) and headed by a country championing regime changes (Cuba 1961, Chile 1973, South Vietnam 1963, Grenada 1983, Iraq 2003, Syria 2011, Libya 2011, Venezuela 2020) getting near their 'spheres of influence' and backyards.

Do take note, I'm also aware of the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, the Czechoslovak Spring of 1968 and the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. These are also regime change operations, but I'm highlighting the 'democratic' US ones because they speak like they're global saviors, yet every country is only motivated to move by only one thing: self-interest. Please remember that the consequence of 'democratizing' Iraq led to the formation of the Islamic State. The 'democratizing' of Afghanistan led to the corrupt regime of Hamid Karzai and Ashraf Ghani, which led to an even stronger Taliban taking over Afghanistan once again. The 'democratizing' of Syria led to the Syrian Civil War, Rise of IS and millions of Syrian deaths and increase in Syrian diaspora (and also the European immigrant crisis). The 'democratizing' of Libya led to a fractured nation, also with Islamic State elements.

My country, the Philippines, suffered 20 years of dictatorship under the older Marcos (and still suffering for it) because the US used us (their bases, Marcos is a staunch anti-communist) as 'stationary aircraft carriers' in Southeast Asia against the onslaught of Communism during the Cold War.

The Russo-Ukraine War of 2022, while is tragic for both sides, showed the hypocrisy and the dangers of 'American'--and on a lesser extent--'Western' exceptionalism. And the fact that the 'unbiased' media like CNN, BBC, WaPo and NYTimes are just overrated bootlickers of policy-makers in Washington.

No one has able to maintain an empire for too long. The British, Soviet/Russian and Mongol Empires have been perfect examples.

So yeah, I think I hijacked this thread, but my bottom point is: No war is noble, and just. It is a political tool, for when all the available means to reach a compromise fails.

And war...war never changes. (God, I been wanting to drop that Fallout line ever since I got to know the game 😁)
 
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TotallyHuman

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If I may add, for those who'd say NATO is just a defensive alliance, Russian experience throughout their histories being invaded, Mongols (13th century), Poles (17th century), Napoleonic France (1812), and Nazi Germany (1941), with the last war costing the Soviet Union 27 million deaths (recorded) caused paranoia in the Soviet/Russian psyche. No one would want a 'rival' alliance with a history of regime changes (Yugoslavia 1998, Iraq 2003, Libya 2011) and headed by a country championing regime changes (Cuba 1961, Chile 1973, South Vietnam 1963, Grenada 1983, Iraq 2003, Syria 2011, Libya 2011, Venezuela 2020) getting near their 'spheres of influence' and backyards.

Do take note, I'm also aware of the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, the Czechoslovak Spring of 1968 and the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. These are also regime change operations, but I'm highlighting the 'democratic' US ones because they speak like they're global saviors, yet every country is only motivated to move by only one thing: self-interest. Please remember that the consequence of 'democratizing' Iraq led to the formation of the Islamic State. The 'democratizing' of Afghanistan led to the corrupt regime of Hamid Karzai and Ashraf Ghani, which led to an even stronger Taliban taking over Afghanistan once again. The 'democratizing' of Syria led to the Syrian Civil War, Rise of IS and millions of Syrian deaths and increase in Syrian diaspora (and also the European immigrant crisis). The 'democratizing' of Libya led to a fractured nation, also with Islamic State elements.

My country, the Philippines, suffered 20 years of dictatorship under the older Marcos (and still suffering for it) because the US used us (their bases, Marcos is a staunch anti-communist) as 'stationary aircraft carriers' in Southeast Asia against the onslaught of Communism during the Cold War.

The Russo-Ukraine War of 2022, while is tragic for both sides, showed the hypocrisy and the dangers of 'American'--and on a lesser extent--'Western' exceptionalism. And the fact that the 'unbiased' media like CNN, BBC, WaPo and NYTimes are just overrated bootlickers of policy-makers in Washington.

No one has abled to maintain an empire for too long. The British, Soviet/Russian and Mongol Empires have been perfect examples.

So yeah, I think I hijacked this thread, but my bottom point is: No war is noble, and just. It is a political tool, for when all the available means to reach a compromise fails.

And war...war never changes. (God, I been wanting to drop that Fallout line ever since I got to know the game 😁)
3rd page and only now do we get that Fallout meme...
I don't know if I should be proud or embarrased over my fellows here
 
D

Deleted member 54065

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3rd page and only now do we get that Fallout meme...
I don't know if I should be proud or embarrased over my fellows here
There's always a good timing for everything...

It's just that, everyone missed it till now. 😆🤣😂
 

Jemini

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Probably the closest thing we've ever had to a "noble war" in recent enough history for us to reliably have all the facts necessary to make the judgement call on it would be the American Civil War that was propagandized in post to be about abolishing slavery.

And, abolishing slavery WAS a major corner-stone factor in what made that war. However, there is a lot of messy stuff throughout that really doesn't make it anywhere near that simple and black-and-white.

(To go into it any deeper would likely be to dance on the line between what is and is not allowed by the "no politics" rule on the forum. I think it wouldn't violate it in spirit since it's a subject that's more one of history than modern day politics, but if you wanted to judge it by the letter then you could even argue that what I already said violates the rule.)
 

Leti

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War is worse than Hell. In Hell (the Afterlife, not Michigan) nobody is innocent. In war? An innocent bystander can get caught on it. The intent may be noble, like defending your country or overthrowing a corrupt authority, but the war itself is not.
 

Sabruness

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I hate being the one saying this, but many people would argue that Ukraine was already shelling its own people way before Russia invaded
you must be talking about the badly disguised russian plants and their pliant shills of the "DPR" and "LNR". you know, the ones who started the initial conflict with their "coups" that were nothing more than badly disguised and barely deniable small scale invasions. please, pull the other one and learn the truth instead of spouting a long dispelled piece of russian propaganda.

wont say any more because we're already teetering on the line of politics and mods may shut this down if we continue.
 

TotallyHuman

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War is worse than Hell. In Hell (the Afterlife, not Michigan) nobody is innocent. In war? An innocent bystander can get caught on it
Debatable tbh. You were born before Christ? Well, to the Purgatory you go. Though tbh I am not versed in Christianity.
you must be talking about the badly disguised russian plants and their pliant shills of the "DPR" and "LNR". you know, the ones who started the initial conflict with their "coups" that were nothing more than badly disguised and barely deniable small scale invasions. please, pull the other one and learn the truth instead of spouting a long dispelled piece of russian propaganda.
Too political. Seconding @SailusGebel
 

owotrucked

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Too political. Seconding @SailusGebel
Lol yeah, Bartun taking a stance on his skepticism of real world casus belli wasnt so needed. Instead he could just have said that he doesnt buy any propaganda selling war as noble and he would still have sounded sane lol
 

TotallyHuman

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Lol yeah, Bartun taking a stance on his skepticism of real world casus belli wasnt so needed. Instead he could just have said that he doesnt buy any propaganda selling war as noble and he would still have sounded sane lol
yeh, him too.
Please don't. It's good for you, and the rest of the sane (and insane) world.
I actually thought to travel there someday
 
D

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yeh, him too.

I actually thought to travel there someday
Well, for tourists, maybe this is a good place. Just be careful of the airport taxis asking for exorbitant fares at the airport. And scammers targeting unsupecting foreigners (they'd act as if you can trust them and then strike) for their money. Oh and government crocodil--I mean, officials spotting vulnerable tourists and extorting them for money.

But if you'll reside here? Nah.

(Good thing Duterte isn't president anymore, or I'll die. Lol)
 
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