Do you ever have those moments when writing?

Paul_Tromba

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Specifically, I want to know if anyone else ever has a moment while writing where even after having a full outline that describes everything that is supposed to happen you connect some dots by complete accident, causing a sudden shift in perspective and realizing that something is wrong. For example, you're working on an arc and you make a subtle reference to something that will happen in the next arc but in doing so realize that a side character you only added into earlier arcs as a filler character is way more important to the plot than you realized when writing it. I did this yesterday and now I'm having to go back through my older work to make sure that nothing conflicts with what I'm about to write.
 

dvelasquez

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Yeah, it happens. More than I would normally think, but I also think it happens because I always leave a certain "freedom" to the story to develop, not trying to force everything to happen.
 

Paul_Tromba

Sleep deprived mess of a published author
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Yeah, it happens. More than I would normally think, but I also think it happens because I always leave a certain "freedom" to the story to develop, not trying to force everything to happen.
That may be why I experience it a lot. My outline is fairly vague so I never try to force anything in the story as you said.
 

JayDirex

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Specifically, I want to know if anyone else ever has a moment while writing where even after having a full outline that describes everything that is supposed to happen you connect some dots by complete accident, causing a sudden shift in perspective and realizing that something is wrong. For example, you're working on an arc and you make a subtle reference to something that will happen in the next arc but in doing so realize that a side character you only added into earlier arcs as a filler character is way more important to the plot than you realized when writing it. I did this yesterday and now I'm having to go back through my older work to make sure that nothing conflicts with what I'm about to write.
We can't outline every detail. The brain needs to discover the events like a puzzle. This happens to all of us because in the process of writing we're figuring out what the characters motivation is and then saying well they would probably actually do this..

That's also why we should add elements of mystery in our plot so that the reader is also going hmm 🤔
 

Linko

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I don't outline everything I write, but yes. Sometimes some information that should only be given in chapter lets say chapter 15 appears in chapter 5 and a character of the mid of the series is referenced in the first chapters.
 

KrisVFX

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Specifically, I want to know if anyone else ever has a moment while writing where even after having a full outline that describes everything that is supposed to happen you connect some dots by complete accident, causing a sudden shift in perspective and realizing that something is wrong. For example, you're working on an arc and you make a subtle reference to something that will happen in the next arc but in doing so realize that a side character you only added into earlier arcs as a filler character is way more important to the plot than you realized when writing it. I did this yesterday and now I'm having to go back through my older work to make sure that nothing conflicts with what I'm about to write.
That basically sums up how i write.
 

LostLibrarian

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It's the way I write. I have a main outline for the central theme and the important events that have to happen and I more or less have the core cast and their role down. And that's that.

I have characters who became much bigger characters (both for me and the readers) than I had planned and I also have characters that bombed hard and I just pushed to the side for now, splitting their "role" into multiple people/shifting it to another one.


How I feel on a certain day might shift stuff around. Or just how a chaper takes shape because I was too tired... :D
 

expentio

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Maybe I'm extremely lucky.
I actually encountered two different situations.
The first is, that in my intentionally big backlog (though it starts to dwindle) I realize that things won't flow as much as I'd like. For example, I had to rewrite a smaller arc and change the order how things happen, while adding or changing many details. Though, as I had a good grasp on the whole written scenario I could stay in control.
The other is much more enjoyable. In my already published chapters it just unintentionally happened that some stuff added up. While I only intended to let the involved act according to character I realized in hindsight that the groundwork was already laid in a much earlier chapter and I was so surprised that just by chance it made totally sense. Yet I won't expose myself and just act as if I'm a genius. (No one's gonna talk here, right?)
 

TheEldritchGod

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Specifically, I want to know if anyone else ever has a moment while writing where even after having a full outline that describes everything that is supposed to happen


I found your problem.

Okay. You want to be a good writer? I can tell you how to be a good writer. Not a great one, but a good one. A one who will write passable and consistently entertaining stories. You wanna be a great one? Can't help you. That takes something special. But good? A GRUNT writer? Someone who gets the job done? Easy.

Step Zero: Unlearn everything English taught you in school about writing papers. Don't unlearn english, unlearn PAPERS. You wrote tyhat paper to sell to a teacher. You are now selling to a different audience. Write for them.

Start with your core idea. What is it? Dunno,. but the best core ideas are simple and don't change much. The more you change, the harder it is to suspend disbelief, the harder it is for the reader to enjoy. When Harry Met Sally. A war in the stars. Robot travels back in time.

Next, establish the payoff. Usually how it ends and the payoff are the same thing, but not always. Stick to keeping them in the same spot for now.

Work your way backwards from the end. What has to happen to get your pay off? Then before that. Then before that. Then before that.

Then you will have a plot for a short story.

Then make a B-plot. Maybe a C-plot. They should tie into the core idea somehow. Maybe a foreshadowing. Maybe a road less traveled. Maybe the side plot is your background for other characters to explain their motivation.

Daydream. Think about it, then sleep on it. If you forget the idea in the morning, it sucked. Day dream about specific scenes. Repeat process. Then if an idea sticks, write it out. Then write out the important story beats before. Only vaguely stick to the outline. Write a number of branching ideas. Yoou should have at the end, about 3 times what you need.

Put half the ideas away in a folder to use later for a different story.

Take the half remaining, then, go to the beginning. Write very quickly. Just the highlights. If a part actually is of interest, write it out in detail, but if it's only boring connecting material, outline that thing.

You should have a patchwork of ideas where you have exciting well written scenes, and connecting threads of only a few lines of paragraphs.

Now the grind begins.

Go to the beginning again. READ IT ALL AS YOU HAVE IT. Re-reading what you wrote is important. You need to do this over and over and over. IF YOU DO NOT ENJOY WHAT YOU ARE READING, IT SUCKS. Start over. If you are not having fun, your reader is not having fun.

Slowly, from the start, write it better. Fill in the details. Put in foreshadowing. Make sure to introduce people you need to introduce. Demonstrate powers and changes in a way that is off-handed so the reader accepts it later in the big pay off. Don't write dramatically. Simple stage directions at this point. You want the information and general knowledge. Getting fancy comes later.

Then, when you have a basic, simple, story, with the big scenes here and there, check your pacing. Make sure you don't have too much of one plot all at once. Switch up and go to B-plot, then C-plot, then filler. Then a breather. Make sure the reader can rest when he needs to rest.

Then, when you have it in the right order, break it up by chapters. Make sure each chapter starts with something to hook the reader, then ends with something to make them keep reading.

THEN... put the whole thing in a text to speech program and listen to it.

VOMIT.

Rewrite it until you don't vomit.

Then give it to someone else. Someone who does not care about you. Someone who is an asshole. You want to write a good story, not get head pats.

Then at this point, start over. Take 2 weeks off. That's usually long enough for me,.

What I mean is, start from the beginning as if you were rewriting the whole thing. NOW you put in the flourish. Now you put in the purple prose. Now you put in the filler and fancy thesaurus bubake.

At that point, with a basic story to work with, you are now IMPROVING what you wrote. It helps if you forgot what you wrote so you can get to parts with a fresh eye and go, "Oh YEAH. I like that!" And you will remember the best parts and go, "Ooo! Wait!" Trim away that which serves no purpose. Combine characters to conserve plot. As you add flourish, REMOVE that which has no purpose.

Do not write an outline to start.
DO NOT HAVE A WELL WRITTEN PLAN.

Nothing will kill a story more than a PLAN.

The story, a good story, writes itself. It grows organically. It just flows. If you are sticking to a plan, you will do... well... you'll do what you are doing now. Thinking you suck because you have to rewrite shit.

PLAN to rewrite shit. Start with multiple paths then by the process of evolution, pick the BEST path.

I wrote HKN thinking it was the bomb. I wrote FTS as a joke. Guess which story works best? Funny thing is, they are, on a level, the same story. They are two diverging paths from the same core concept. One is successful, one is not.

Doesn't mean they are good stories, but there is a difference between a good story and a popular one. Don't conflate the two.

My advice?

WRITE BOTH VERSIONS. You can never write too much. Anything you don't use will be kept for later and can be recycled. Do this long enough, you can slap together entire books in a week, if hard pressed. I have.
 

BlackKnightX

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I don’t outline now, but when I wrote my first series, I did plan a bit. And yeah, I have those moments. There’s this scene where the mc meets the slave boy while being captured by the slave trader. I plan to have her save him at the end of that arc, but then the story just kind of takes over, and that boy has to die in a very tragic way. It just sort of happens. I don’t want it, but I won’t force it to turn out any other way.
 

akira_

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Specifically, I want to know if anyone else ever has a moment while writing where even after having a full outline that describes everything that is supposed to happen you connect some dots by complete accident, causing a sudden shift in perspective and realizing that something is wrong. For example, you're working on an arc and you make a subtle reference to something that will happen in the next arc but in doing so realize that a side character you only added into earlier arcs as a filler character is way more important to the plot than you realized when writing it. I did this yesterday and now I'm having to go back through my older work to make sure that nothing conflicts with what I'm about to write.
the world and power system of my story were built like this, all by complete coincidence
 
Last edited:

JayDirex

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
582
Points
133
It's the way I write. I have a main outline for the central theme and the important events that have to happen and I more or less have the core cast and their role down. And that's that.

I have characters who became much bigger characters (both for me and the readers) than I had planned and I also have characters that bombed hard and I just pushed to the side for now, splitting their "role" into multiple people/shifting it to another one.


How I feel on a certain day might shift stuff around. Or just how a chaper takes shape because I was too tired... :D
I have characters who became much bigger characters (both for me and the readers) than I had planned
I love how that side character you wrote for a scene somehow becomes pivotal in the plot later on. (Oh I know, I can use that character to do x. Yeah that fits.)
 

ModernGold7ne

That fly you can't swat.
Joined
Nov 25, 2020
Messages
309
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I found your problem.

Okay. You want to be a good writer? I can tell you how to be a good writer. Not a great one, but a good one. A one who will write passable and consistently entertaining stories. You wanna be a great one? Can't help you. That takes something special. But good? A GRUNT writer? Someone who gets the job done? Easy.

Step Zero: Unlearn everything English taught you in school about writing papers. Don't unlearn english, unlearn PAPERS. You wrote tyhat paper to sell to a teacher. You are now selling to a different audience. Write for them.

Start with your core idea. What is it? Dunno,. but the best core ideas are simple and don't change much. The more you change, the harder it is to suspend disbelief, the harder it is for the reader to enjoy. When Harry Met Sally. A war in the stars. Robot travels back in time.

Next, establish the payoff. Usually how it ends and the payoff are the same thing, but not always. Stick to keeping them in the same spot for now.

Work your way backwards from the end. What has to happen to get your pay off? Then before that. Then before that. Then before that.

Then you will have a plot for a short story.

Then make a B-plot. Maybe a C-plot. They should tie into the core idea somehow. Maybe a foreshadowing. Maybe a road less traveled. Maybe the side plot is your background for other characters to explain their motivation.

Daydream. Think about it, then sleep on it. If you forget the idea in the morning, it sucked. Day dream about specific scenes. Repeat process. Then if an idea sticks, write it out. Then write out the important story beats before. Only vaguely stick to the outline. Write a number of branching ideas. Yoou should have at the end, about 3 times what you need.

Put half the ideas away in a folder to use later for a different story.

Take the half remaining, then, go to the beginning. Write very quickly. Just the highlights. If a part actually is of interest, write it out in detail, but if it's only boring connecting material, outline that thing.

You should have a patchwork of ideas where you have exciting well written scenes, and connecting threads of only a few lines of paragraphs.

Now the grind begins.

Go to the beginning again. READ IT ALL AS YOU HAVE IT. Re-reading what you wrote is important. You need to do this over and over and over. IF YOU DO NOT ENJOY WHAT YOU ARE READING, IT SUCKS. Start over. If you are not having fun, your reader is not having fun.

Slowly, from the start, write it better. Fill in the details. Put in foreshadowing. Make sure to introduce people you need to introduce. Demonstrate powers and changes in a way that is off-handed so the reader accepts it later in the big pay off. Don't write dramatically. Simple stage directions at this point. You want the information and general knowledge. Getting fancy comes later.

Then, when you have a basic, simple, story, with the big scenes here and there, check your pacing. Make sure you don't have too much of one plot all at once. Switch up and go to B-plot, then C-plot, then filler. Then a breather. Make sure the reader can rest when he needs to rest.

Then, when you have it in the right order, break it up by chapters. Make sure each chapter starts with something to hook the reader, then ends with something to make them keep reading.

THEN... put the whole thing in a text to speech program and listen to it.

VOMIT.

Rewrite it until you don't vomit.

Then give it to someone else. Someone who does not care about you. Someone who is an asshole. You want to write a good story, not get head pats.

Then at this point, start over. Take 2 weeks off. That's usually long enough for me,.

What I mean is, start from the beginning as if you were rewriting the whole thing. NOW you put in the flourish. Now you put in the purple prose. Now you put in the filler and fancy thesaurus bubake.

At that point, with a basic story to work with, you are now IMPROVING what you wrote. It helps if you forgot what you wrote so you can get to parts with a fresh eye and go, "Oh YEAH. I like that!" And you will remember the best parts and go, "Ooo! Wait!" Trim away that which serves no purpose. Combine characters to conserve plot. As you add flourish, REMOVE that which has no purpose.

Do not write an outline to start.
DO NOT HAVE A WELL WRITTEN PLAN.

Nothing will kill a story more than a PLAN.

The story, a good story, writes itself. It grows organically. It just flows. If you are sticking to a plan, you will do... well... you'll do what you are doing now. Thinking you suck because you have to rewrite shit.

PLAN to rewrite shit. Start with multiple paths then by the process of evolution, pick the BEST path.

I wrote HKN thinking it was the bomb. I wrote FTS as a joke. Guess which story works best? Funny thing is, they are, on a level, the same story. They are two diverging paths from the same core concept. One is successful, one is not.

Doesn't mean they are good stories, but there is a difference between a good story and a popular one. Don't conflate the two.

My advice?

WRITE BOTH VERSIONS. You can never write too much. Anything you don't use will be kept for later and can be recycled. Do this long enough, you can slap together entire books in a week, if hard pressed. I have.
Respect to whoever i'm quoting.
 
Last edited:

TsuruI_am_a_bot

Yandere Robot / Wife of Botty
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
777
Points
133
Specifically, I want to know if anyone else ever has a moment while writing where even after having a full outline that describes everything that is supposed to happen you connect some dots by complete accident, causing a sudden shift in perspective and realizing that something is wrong. For example, you're working on an arc and you make a subtle reference to something that will happen in the next arc but in doing so realize that a side character you only added into earlier arcs as a filler character is way more important to the plot than you realized when writing it. I did this yesterday and now I'm having to go back through my older work to make sure that nothing conflicts with what I'm about to write.
That is why the popular author Andur (royalroad) is smart. Re-using same MC + FL (but difference personality as they reincarnate, but still similar). And his novels are often short.

Also. You shouldn't blame yourself. People are humans in the end. Forgetting is normal.
try checking some chinese novels, or veteran readers of them. Beside usual bullshit or poison cliches, it is common for them to forget characters they introduced before. Heck even important characters. *POP* No more appearance. Just like that.
But of course there are cases where they re-appear. But heck its slightly cringe.
 
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