Question about gunpowder weapon's in mediaval setting.

[Auratic]

Medieval guns were terrible at their time compared to late renaissance era. First guns archetypes used smoothbore which didn't give the bullets a spin, something that's needed for both range and accuracy over any decent range. These smoothbore barrels were eventually succeeded by rifled barrels. Their accuracy was so bad that people invented the grapeshot which was basically a cannon sized shotgun that peppered the area with small caliber bullets to hit anyone. Despite that it was only viable in short to medium range against infantry.
Secondly early gunpowder or black powder just sucked as an ignition where it caused a lot of damage to the barrels of the weapon due to rusting, and left tons of debris leftover from improper ignition causing the guns to jam or seize up without regular maintenance of the barrels, not the mention the velocity of the bullets were dogshit. Only after smokeless gunpowder which came around use by 1846s ish did guns have good propellants.
Most bullets of the time period also were Musketballs rather than the cylindrical shape you may associate with bullets and had the tendency to deflect off of any good domed platemail or fullplates.
Instead of bullets you might as well place some barrels of black powder and light its fuse though even that is questionable in its effectiveness. If all else fails you can still shoot the barrel to detonate it, considering you can hit it with something since blackpowder is ignitable from friction and heat.
Some guns could use a predecessor to the smokeless gunpowder with a nitroglycerin based propellants though it would most likely be useful for one shot only since nitroglycerin tends to explode rather than burn meaning unless the gun was made from highly robust construction it would immediately shatter into pieces in your hands, i.e more of a danger to the wielder than the target.
Bolt actions (Mauser, M1877) while reliable, were slower, heavier and most importantly tended to suffer from ejection failures where they improperly eject the spent casing and jam itself, requiring the shooter to very slowly and carefully do a manual ejection. This could happen with even modern semi automatic handguns. Repeated use of the barrel often heated up the barrel to a point where the metal would expand and deform from stress causing issues with aim and all sorts of other problems. With an untrained personnel a Failure to feed could also happen due to the gunner not properly pulling back the bolt or having a loose hold on the weapon, where the gun will not chamber the next round, causing the next shot to be a click of the hammer without a bullet. Ignition failure or Hangfire was also prevalent with black powder or any other inferior quality gunpowder where the fuse will not burn enough to shoot out the bullet or cause a delay between the ignition and the bullet firing out of the gun. This is the most dangerous type of failure where inexperienced people often looked down towards the barrel to see if there's a jam only for the gun to shoot them in the eye.
Guns just like any other weapon already has enough problems as it is, you don't need to nerf it, just show its faults at the worst of times.​

 

[SirDogeTheFirst]

Just have guns not use your stats to calculate damage and instead just do flat damage, based on the gun's attack but ignoring the enemy's defense. Then guns will be better against stronger enemies, but inferior against weaker enemies.

It would be much easier if only my story had levels.

Medieval guns were terrible at their time compared to late renaissance era. First guns archetypes used smoothbore which didn't give the bullets a spin, something that's needed for both range and accuracy over any decent range. These smoothbore barrels were eventually succeeded by rifled barrels. Their accuracy was so bad that people invented the grapeshot which was basically a cannon sized shotgun that peppered the area with small caliber bullets to hit anyone. Despite that it was only viable in short to medium range against infantry.
Secondly early gunpowder or black powder just sucked as an ignition where it caused a lot of damage to the barrels of the weapon due to rusting, and left tons of debris leftover from improper ignition causing the guns to jam or seize up without regular maintenance of the barrels, not the mention the velocity of the bullets were dogshit. Only after smokeless gunpowder which came around use by 1846s ish did guns have good propellants.
Most bullets of the time period also were Musketballs rather than the cylindrical shape you may associate with bullets and had the tendency to deflect off of any good domed platemail or fullplates.
Instead of bullets you might as well place some barrels of black powder and light its fuse though even that is questionable in its effectiveness. If all else fails you can still shoot the barrel to detonate it, considering you can hit it with something since blackpowder is ignitable from friction and heat.
Some guns could use a predecessor to the smokeless gunpowder with a nitroglycerin based propellants though it would most likely be useful for one shot only since nitroglycerin tends to explode rather than burn meaning unless the gun was made from highly robust construction it would immediately shatter into pieces in your hands, i.e more of a danger to the wielder than the target.
Bolt actions (Mauser, M1877) while reliable, were slower, heavier and most importantly tended to suffer from ejection failures where they improperly eject the spent casing and jam itself, requiring the shooter to very slowly and carefully do a manual ejection. This could happen with even modern semi automatic handguns. Repeated use of the barrel often heated up the barrel to a point where the metal would expand and deform from stress causing issues with aim and all sorts of other problems. With an untrained personnel a Failure to feed could also happen due to the gunner not properly pulling back the bolt or having a loose hold on the weapon, where the gun will not chamber the next round, causing the next shot to be a click of the hammer without a bullet. Ignition failure or Hangfire was also prevalent with black powder or any other inferior quality gunpowder where the fuse will not burn enough to shoot out the bullet or cause a delay between the ignition and the bullet firing out of the gun. This is the most dangerous type of failure where inexperienced people often looked down towards the barrel to see if there's a jam only for the gun to shoot them in the eye.
Guns just like any other weapon already has enough problems as it is, you don't need to nerf it, just show its faults at the worst of times.​

I mean it won't be mediaval guns but rather fallout like guns where they copy the modern ones but with much worse performance

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

Machinists can't fucking get screw holes aligned on my stuffs but MC can mass produce reliable rifles. Dwarves are OP

Reliable with tolerances necessary to mass produce barrels and achieve rifling were relatively recent inventions, product of very advanced engineering.

Not to mention, the production of effective/smokeless gunpowder requires substantial knowledge in chemistry. Of course, the MC and dwarves has all that. They have the formulas, the tools for synthesising, and the ingredients necessary for the process just lying around. Stupid humans took a millennium for that in comparison.

 

[Ai-chan]

Hello dear writers and readers, I have a question in my mind.

How can I make gunpowder weapons not too powerful in a medieval setting without completely butchering the immersion?

And I am not talking about the first musket rifles that took so long between shoots enemy can make itself an omelet before you can even shoot your second round.

I mean rifles more like Martini-Henry, or Mauser 1877, the ones that can fire much faster.

But I must give more information to create a better context in your head.

In my story, the main character and the people he leads are defending a Dwarven fortress where they have access to a vast amount of steel, gunpowder, and equipment to process these two into weapons.

And like every generic isekai main character, my mc also knows how modern firearms works.

But I don't want guns in my story to be too powerful and let mc steamroll everything that stands against him.

Now, the question comes. How can I nerf gunpowder weapons or balance them enough to make the enemy not useless in a way that has at least a crumb of immersion?

Basic rules of gunpowder:
1. If it's wet, it won't combust
2. Sulphur does not make it burn, but as it burn, it reduces the temperature needed to ignite the whole mixture
3. If you have too much coal, it burns slowly.
4. If you have too much sulphur, it burns quickly and likely will not explode
5. If you have too much saltpetre (kalium nitrate), it combusts quickly, but that is assuming you have enough sulphur to burn all the saltpetre in the first place
6. Blackpowder (that uses coal, sulphur and saltpetre mixture) is corrosive to iron and steel

Dwarven fortresses are usually underground or mostly underground. And since medieval age uses torches, you will be mixing the gunpowder in almost complete darkness as the closest torch is likely more than 10 meters away for the sake of safety. Gunpowder can go bad and can expire when it's stored in non-airproofed barrels or if the environment it's stored in is moist, which is common in mines.

Black powder generally requires more to deliver the same power as smokeless gunpowder. Modern guns such as what you specified would use modern smokeless gunpowder, the propellant of which are made of mostly nitrocellulose. Dwarves would not have nitrocellulose as the standard dwarves of fantasy would not know much about chemistry and would most likely use black powder. For nitrocellulose to exist, you need both a source of cellulose and a source of liquid nitrate (nitric acid). Neither of which are not items that dwarves are portrayed capable of making.

Using black powder inside modern weapons to replace modern gunpowder will have unexpected effects. While they can still shoot, for black powders to fit inside the same shell, you'd trade off a lot of the muzzle velocity. Modern gunpowder generally expands 3 times more gas than black powder (the actual estimation is dependent on the mixture of gunpowders involved). So while you can use modern firearms with your black powder, it will not be very good as a weapon.

Your handicaps:
1. You use black powder with modern firearms. Unless it's short-range shotgun, it will behave differently.
2. Your modern weapons now have shorter range. Your rifling reduces the speed of the bullet, and therefore, there is less inertia for it to reach as far as modern gunpowder. Yes, rifling has existed even back in black powder age, but case in point, it had very short range, to the point that if you're fast enough, you could charge down the guy with a rifle.
3. Unless you have the skills/machine to put the propellant into the case, your bullets may be prone to duds. The bullets also has a time limit before it expires.
4. Black powder releases a lot of smoke, so the moment you shoot your gun, your position is immediately identified.

 

[ConansWitchBaby]

No one has mentioned primers. So, flintlock and per-shot reloading it is for you. Unless you go the cluster of rifle barrels route. In that case stick with shotguns. You can forgo rifles and make stuff sturdier like grapeshot cannons. If you can put it in, with however you go about it in the end, mortars or mortar-like devices should suffice.

 

[Cipiteca396]

You can forgo rifles and make stuff sturdier like grapeshot cannons. If you can put it in, with however you go about it in the end, mortars or mortar-like devices should suffice.

Tbh, yeah. Rather than rifles, a fortress would be better using cannons, which are easier to make and do more damage. It won't be as useful when you leave the fortress, but it might buy your dwarves time to experiment properly.

For nitrocellulose to exist, you need both a source of cellulose and a source of liquid nitrate (nitric acid). Neither of which are not items that dwarves are portrayed capable of making.

I wonder about that. If the MC actually knows what it is, and especially if they already know how to make it, it should be pretty simple for the Dwarves to make it. The main problem would probably be getting the non-mineral materials, since Dwarves don't exactly have a green thumb.

 

[Ai-chan]

Tbh, yeah. Rather than rifles, a fortress would be better using cannons, which are easier to make and do more damage. It won't be as useful when you leave the fortress, but it might buy your dwarves time to experiment properly.

I wonder about that. If the MC actually knows what it is, and especially if they already know how to make it, it should be pretty simple for the Dwarves to make it. The main problem would probably be getting the non-mineral materials, since Dwarves don't exactly have a green thumb.

Making nitric acid is quite an involved method. A passing dude with an interest in guns wouldn't know how to make them. Ai-chan had to open old chemistry books to find out how to make it. You can't just throw poop into water and expect it to become nitric acid like carbonic acid, because that only makes poop water. You need either a catalyst or a specialized nitrate salt to create nitric acid. There are other methods but they're even more complicated than what's in the chemistry books.

 

[SirDogeTheFirst]

As the thread keeps getting more comments, I should probably give more information about the main character and the state of the world.



The main character is a mechanical engineer+ a soldier who served in many wars. So he is close to how war machines work, but he is not much of a chemist, so most weapons stay relatively simple.





And the dwarven fortress is not your average heavily fortified place with lots of weapons humans don't have access to for some reason, but rather a labor camp used for weapon crafting after humans betrayed dwarfs and slaved their kin more than one hundred years ago.



The fortress also has two parts, one upper part where soldiers used to stay, and the second part where an ancient dwarven city is currently getting rebuilt with our MC's supervision.



So, we have a group of rioters (both human and dwarven) who have done heavy labor such as mining or blacksmithing for a long time.

And a guy who has somewhat capabilities to design weapons. I am not planning on building a complete modern army nor early renaissance one, but combination of what my writing can handle without adding too much plot armor.

 

[RaidenInfinity]

If electricity or magnetism is one of the effects of magic and assume that magic is easy to cast... you know what can come out of it. But it might be too overpowered to railgun or gauss cannon the heck out of medieval soldiers though...

Also since you're defending a fortress, shouldn't you prioritize siege/anti-siege weapons (ballista, cannons, etc.) instead?

 

[Cipiteca396]

As the thread keeps getting more comments, I should probably give more information about the main character and the state of the world.



The main character is a mechanical engineer+ a soldier who served in many wars. So he is close to how war machines work, but he is not much of a chemist, so most weapons stay relatively simple.





And the dwarven fortress is not your average heavily fortified place with lots of weapons humans don't have access to for some reason, but rather a labor camp used for weapon crafting after humans betrayed dwarfs and slaved their kin more than one hundred years ago.



The fortress also has two parts, one upper part where soldiers used to stay, and the second part where an ancient dwarven city is currently getting rebuilt with our MC's supervision.



So, we have a group of rioters (both human and dwarven) who have done heavy labor such as mining or blacksmithing for a long time.

And a guy who has somewhat capabilities to design weapons. I am not planning on building a complete modern army nor early renaissance one, but combination of what my writing can handle without adding too much plot armor.

Hmm... With that setting, maybe guns are the wrong call. With Mechanical engineering, he might be better off using medieval siege equipment, ironically. Catapults and Trebuchets. Unfortunately, even simple guns need a pretty reliable knowledge of Chemistry. The Military background could be useful for some things, but not making guns. The soldier I know said, word for word, "I joined the military to shoot big guns, don't need to know how they work." (Maybe a plane though?)

I assume the engineering will allow a fairly modern construction layout though, so a fortress is just a little bit of effort away... Cement and Concrete. That's the cheat you need, not guns. Man, Dwarves would literally make you a statue if you gave them that stuff, assuming they didn't invent it already. Which they should have, I guess.

I guess in the end, you should be using crossbows, ballistae, trebuchets, elevators(What?), and the weapons that your blacksmiths would normally make. And of course, a terrain advantage that comes from a make-shift fortress. Dig a hole, put the dirt on your side of the hole, encase it in wood or stone frames.

You probably don't have time to gather the ingredient for gunpowder, even if you know them...

 

[SirDogeTheFirst]

You probably don't have time to gather the ingredient for gunpowder, even if you know them...

Well here comes our little cheat skill. My main character has an item that allows its user to transform mana into raw materials or elements.

And as I said fortress already has access to some degree of production with the power of said item, our fortress can produce gunpowder at small amounts.

Why in small amounts, well because there is only two people in whole fortress that can use magic or magical tools and transformation process requires lots of mana and materials such as cotton or wood could not be created by it.

While we have some degree of acces to gunpowder, fortress still has ballistas and some basic cannons.

Bigger siege weapons cannot be fired from inside because of the structure itself. Fortress is placed inside a mountain and has no open ceiling to fire weapons like trebuchet or catapults.

Meanwhile smaller ballistas and cannons can be fired. I want acces to gunpowder weapons because of lack of wood.

There are plenty of minerals, fuels and equipment to process them but wood is limited.

Rifles who can fire iron or stone bullets will be much more cost efficient than arrows and bolts.

And my character has knowladge of making gunpowder. I must add that before I forgot it, but stronger materials such as smokeless powder or tnt will be achieved through recruiting other people with better knowladge about chemistry.

 

[Snusmumriken]

Well here comes our little cheat skill. My main character has an item that allows its user to transform mana into raw materials or elements.

And as I said fortress already has access to some degree of production with the power of said item, our fortress can produce gunpowder at small amounts.

And my character has knowladge of making gunpowder. I must add that before I forgot it, but stronger materials such as smokeless powder or tnt will be achieved through recruiting other people with better knowladge about chemistry.

Gunpowder is an easy part of guns. The question is do they have proper tooling to carve out something more intricate than a cannon and steel strong enough to last more than a few shots?

Gunpowder had been known for centuries before it was used in guns and not because people didn't understand how it worked - they simply couldn't make the barrels good enough (or make them at all)

And war crossbows are made from steel too.

 

[Cipiteca396]

materials such as cotton or wood could not be created by it.

That seems like a weird limit. It's literally just weird combinations of water, air and carbon. Gunpowder is quite similar, actually. I think you'll have a hard time making anything without being able to make organics...

I honestly can't figure out how that would work at all. Unless you specifically said something like, MC is a metal mage, and can only work with metal. Though that would, of course, make gunpowder impossible.

Rifles who can fire iron or stone bullets will be much more cost efficient than arrows and bolts.

Make your arrows and bolts out of hollow metal. That's how modern arrows are made. Make everything out of the resources you have, instead of the resources you regret not having. Having an entire stick of metal might be too costly, of course. In that case, a slingshot or a normal sling would be the only option. IT would be significantly less accurate/short ranged than a bow though, so you'll have to weigh your options. (Oh, don't use iron bullets for guns. If the barrel is made of the same material, it'll take too much damage and be destroyed.)

And my character has knowladge of making gunpowder. I must add that before I forgot it, but stronger materials such as smokeless powder or tnt will be achieved through recruiting other people with better knowladge about chemistry

Frankly, if you know the formula and you can magically create stuff with magic, smokeless powder is easier than black powder. It's literally just water, cotton and nitrate salt. Since you can't make cotton, that does permanently limit you to blackpowder though... Maybe.
Technically one of the ingredients of blackpowder is coal, which is made of carbon. I imagine the justification for no cotton or wood is that you can't alter carbon, usually. If you can't make cotton, coal and charcoal should be off the table as well. Meaning you'd have to manually find and process the ingredients... Which you probably don't have time for.

But hey, at least you can magically make cement. Maybe drown your invaders in it, like an oil trap. Or sulfuric acid? Maybe gasoline, and make a motor that shoots rocks like a clay pigeon shooter.
Ah, TLDR: this little clarification is way more confusing than helpful...

 

[ConansWitchBaby]

Transform a chunk of white phosphorous and coat all the bullets in it.

 

[ElijahRyne]

Hello dear writers and readers, I have a question in my mind.

How can I make gunpowder weapons not too powerful in a medieval setting without completely butchering the immersion?

And I am not talking about the first musket rifles that took so long between shoots enemy can make itself an omelet before you can even shoot your second round.

I mean rifles more like Martini-Henry, or Mauser 1877, the ones that can fire much faster.

But I must give more information to create a better context in your head.

In my story, the main character and the people he leads are defending a Dwarven fortress where they have access to a vast amount of steel, gunpowder, and equipment to process these two into weapons.

And like every generic isekai main character, my mc also knows how modern firearms works.

But I don't want guns in my story to be too powerful and let mc steamroll everything that stands against him.

Now, the question comes. How can I nerf gunpowder weapons or balance them enough to make the enemy not useless in a way that has at least a crumb of immersion?

Gunpowder weapons were in use during the mid evil era. It was basically limited to siege or hand cannons, Arquebusess, and blunderbusses. Cannons were powerful but hard to make because of the amount of time and precision it took to make one. Hand cannons are similar but more portable, and require less skill. Arquebusess existed at the very end of the era, but were basically protomuskets. Anyways this might help: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_firearm

 

[T.K._Paradox]

History is your friend in this situation, there is no way in hell that your MC outside of bullshit plot reasons can make modern firearms or anything close to them. It comes down to how practical your magic is, engineering outside of basic concepts could be completely foreign to those that have been so dependent on magic. After all, why resort to something new and unknown that is underdeveloped, compared to magic which can solve the same problem without all that trial and error.

Don't just make bullets useless confetti otherwise there is no point of bullets existing in the world except as a gag. Use reason and history to aid you in writing, and balance bullets in a way that doesn't make it seem like you're wanking it for either magic or engineering.

 

[Cipiteca396]

It comes down to how practical your magic is, engineering outside of basic concepts could be completely foreign to those that have been so dependent on magic. After all, why resort to something new and unknown that is underdeveloped, compared to magic which can solve the same problem without all that trial and error.

This mostly makes sense, but my one complaint is that Dwarves are typically portrayed as being inferior at magic use. Of all the races, they would be most likely to understand and even revel in something like engineering.

 

[T.K._Paradox]

This mostly makes sense, but my one complaint is that Dwarves are typically portrayed as being inferior at magic use. Of all the races, they would be most likely to understand and even revel in something like engineering.

Then it would make sense for Dwarves to have a more technologically advanced society and possibly better stratagem with all the advancements in engineering they have made.

 

[Kenjona]

Transform a chunk of white phosphorous and coat all the bullets in it.

Umm, ok, so every gun is now a roman candle and will not only over heat quickly. It will likely misfire and blow up in ones face. Sorry but this is a BAD idea, Tracer rounds and White Phosphorous rounds have their combustibles inside the rounds for a reason.

 

[orangepeel]

I say nurf the accuracy, then they are much more destructive compared to bow and arrow but need to get in a closer range to be effective.

Even early muzzle loaders had the power to punch though several lightly armered men, and they shoot strait at the enemy where as most arrows will only go though 1 man, and even with more power they are often lofted for more range so they will only get 1.

since guns require specilized processes such as hole boring your average medieval/magic type blacksmith wouldn't be experenced enough to do it, at least not with a decent acuracy weapon as a result.