The Genre I Hate: Gender-Bender

[Agentt]

*Pulls out popcorn* this’ll be fun to watch. Gotta absorb my daily dose of toxicity.

There is another alice on this site and she is exactly like this

 

[AliceHiess]

There is another alice on this site and she is exactly like this

Glad to see I’m not alone in that viewpoint

 

[MajorKerina]

Sorry you feel that way. I personally enjoy writing in the gender bender genre because it offers fascinating insights into human nature and amusing romantic possibilities. Many Japanese and SEA works use it to interesting and inspiring effect. Ranma 1/2 is the granddaddy there. The first season I think is my personal favorite because the art was the best. The beloved film Your Name also integrates a change of perspective between characters into a heartfelt drama. I recently finished a family drama with a young man who finds himself in his female cousin’s shoes, dealing with her cruel mom. Stories which deal with fantastical scenarios have a certain amount of leeway when it comes to “well actually a totally real person should be highly traumatized by this” of course. But it’s a work of fiction. Sometimes it’s an adventure predominantly. Other times a screwball comedy. If the author sets out to write that a physical change to a character has left them understandably dysphoric, then that’s another sort of story. I’ve actually dealt and worked on all variety. Not to toot my own horn, but I feel I’ve made some decent stories within the genre. Any genre has a multitude of works that range in quality. Sturgeon’s Law applies. That’s about all I have. Have a nice day and hope you find works more to your liking in the future.

 

[Discount_Blade]

*Pulls out popcorn* this’ll be fun to watch. Gotta absorb my daily dose of toxicity.

They have arsenic for that sort of fetish.

 

[AliceHiess]

They have arsenic for that sort of fetish.

No thanks I’ve almost died enough times already don’t need to add another to the list.

 

[Discount_Blade]

No thanks I’ve almost died enough times already don’t need to add another to the list.

Join the club. I grew up/currently still live in Brooklyn. There is nothing that doesn't happen here somewhere.

 

[AliceShiki]

The main reasons I dislike this genre are: 1) Often you have a completely straight dude turning into a woman. If it was someone who wanted that or at least was considering, I would not mind (It might even be interesting to see the journey of transitioning if the character originally wanted it). If that crap happened in real life to some straight guy, many would literally off themselves after some time, so that makes me hate it. 2) Feels like some male authors who have no idea how to write realistic female character choose this way so the character can have a "male-like" personality and make their job easier. If you can't write the main character who is a female just write about the male one. 3) I am annoyed right now because I searched some new stories on scribblehub to read and too many of them had a gender-bender tag, so I made this thread to whine.

Seems like you just found the bad stories. What you pointed out does happen, but it doesn't apply to all gender benders.

The good gender benders are those in which the MC feels troubled by their new body, starts questioning their sexuality and start questioning what they identify themselves as.

There are plenty of those out there, you just need to find the stories where the gender bender aspect is the focus of the story... As in... It's more likely to happen in Romance and/or Slice of Life stories over stuff like Action and Adventure. Because in action/adventure the author is usually too busy writing about how the characters save the world and end up not giving the appropriate amount of attention to the gender aspect.

But like, I totally get your complaints, they certainly happen... But that doesn't mean they apply to all gender bender stories. You just need to find the good ones.

 

[SootShade]

The main reasons I dislike this genre are: 1) Often you have a completely straight dude turning into a woman. If that crap happened in real life to some straight guy, many would literally off themselves after some time, so that makes me hate it.

The fact that it naturally creates emotional conflict is one of the things that makes it a very useful trope. If you apply enough thought, then this alone can be used to create an interesting story. Though I suppose not everyone is as interested in reading about characters navigating through emotional anguish to reach their happy end as I am?

There's also a heck of a lot of variety within the concept, and how a character might react could depend on any number of factors. Ranging from the character being suicidal, to actually being happy about the change, all sorts of reactions can be plausibly explained by adjusting different variables at play with this trope. And frankly stories on the latter end of the scale seems to be a lot more common.

If it was someone who wanted that or at least was considering, I would not mind (It might even be interesting to see the journey of transitioning if the character originally wanted it).

On SH you have a fair selection that fits this category, which you can find with the right tags, as a couple of people have already noted.

 

[Myxir]

GB almost never adds to the story. I am pretty sure it's a fetish thing. Similar to the harem tag is basically a signpost reading bad characters ahead.

Seeing how the GB people spam this thread, the readers are apparently awful people on top of that.

 

[KinkyDao]

The main reasons I dislike this genre are: 1) Often you have a completely straight dude turning into a woman. If it was someone who wanted that or at least was considering, I would not mind (It might even be interesting to see the journey of transitioning if the character originally wanted it). If that crap happened in real life to some straight guy, many would literally off themselves after some time, so that makes me hate it. 2) Feels like some male authors who have no idea how to write realistic female character choose this way so the character can have a "male-like" personality and make their job easier. If you can't write the main character who is a female just write about the male one. 3) I am annoyed right now because I searched some new stories on scribblehub to read and too many of them had a gender-bender tag, so I made this thread to whine.

Edit: it says "you have insufficient privileges to reply here" for some reason so I can't reply on this thread anymore, sorry.

Well I am kinda neutral to gender bender. It all comes down to how it is all handled. Might have already gotten a responce like mine but im unfortunetly lazy and its late so I wont read through everything. But i will see if I might just have a author to recommend that makes good and interesting GB. QuietValorie
1: The straight dude turning into a woman; this one is pretty common and its often used at the start and then just put under the rug but it can be done well with the dude, well not being straigt or a "dude" for that matter.
2: QuietValorie is female in a relationship with a female according to the bio so she knows how to write a female protagonist.
3: I hope your no longer annoyed =)

GB almost never adds to the story. I am pretty sure it's a fetish thing. Similar to the harem tag is basically a signpost reading bad characters ahead.

Seeing how the GB people spam this thread, the readers are apparently awful people on top of that.

Well everything is a fetish to someone. And even if its not I cant say that its always a detriment to the story. A good GB can tackle some intresting questions on identity, society and such. Its not allways sexual (in the sense that its about having sex) but is often just a generic male, dies and accidentaly or randomly are reborn female so that it can be written for lesbian sex but for guys. If you get what I mean.

 

[bigbear51]

Honestly, I can't usually stand the genre. But jeez all these genre hate threads are just people hating something because it doesn't give them what they want.

 

[Wintertime]

It's fine to dislike gender-bender. Just make one yourself you would enjoy, or don't read it.

 

[sabazurc]

The fact that it naturally creates emotional conflict is one of the things that makes it a very useful trope. If you apply enough thought, then this alone can be used to create an interesting story. Though I suppose not everyone is as interested in reading about characters navigating through emotional anguish to reach their happy end as I am?

There's also a heck of a lot of variety within the concept, and how a character might react could depend on any number of factors. Ranging from the character being suicidal, to actually being happy about the change, all sorts of reactions can be plausibly explained by adjusting different variables at play with this trope. And frankly stories on the latter end of the scale seems to be a lot more common.


On SH you have a fair selection that fits this category, which you can find with the right tags, as a couple of people have already noted.

The problem is often they do not react at all. And no, the emotional struggle of characters is not that important for me, especially in fantasy because it's very rare in fantasy, in general, to express deep human anguish in a realistic and touching way. Often it's at the level of crappy drama-filled soap operas. Maybe it's because authors themselves have not experienced real suffering and did not have a lot of contact with different types of people which I think is important when you write about people and their personalities. I love fantasy but it is what it is(there are some exceptions). What I like in fantasy is focusing more on world-building, history, adventure, action, and characters just need to be realistic and not too bland/robotic.

I know about tags but I search for a specific phrase and did not filter that day since there were not that many stories...but too many were gender-bender. Some gender-bender I do like...like Ranma 1/2

It's fine to dislike gender-bender. Just make one yourself you would enjoy, or don't read it.

That's what I usually do. It's just that day too many of the stories that came up were gender bender and I got annoyed so I made this thread.

Well I am kinda neutral to gender bender. It all comes down to how it is all handled. Might have already gotten a responce like mine but im unfortunetly lazy and its late so I wont read through everything. But i will see if I might just have a author to recommend that makes good and interesting GB. QuietValorie
1: The straight dude turning into a woman; this one is pretty common and its often used at the start and then just put under the rug but it can be done well with the dude, well not being straigt or a "dude" for that matter.
2: QuietValorie is female in a relationship with a female according to the bio so she knows how to write a female protagonist.
3: I hope your no longer annoyed =)

Well everything is a fetish to someone. And even if its not I cant say that its always a detriment to the story. A good GB can tackle some intresting questions on identity, society and such. Its not allways sexual (in the sense that its about having sex) but is often just a generic male, dies and accidentaly or randomly are reborn female so that it can be written for lesbian sex but for guys. If you get what I mean.

1) I agree. Or if a straight guy actually tries to find a way to change and from time to time author shows his sadness/struggle (like in Ranma)
2) Some are not females and clearly write because of the reason I stated
3) No :D

I get what you mean. People can write anything, I do not have to like it tho.

Sorry you feel that way. I personally enjoy writing in the gender bender genre because it offers fascinating insights into human nature and amusing romantic possibilities. Many Japanese and SEA works use it to interesting and inspiring effect. Ranma 1/2 is the granddaddy there. The first season I think is my personal favorite because the art was the best. The beloved film Your Name also integrates a change of perspective between characters into a heartfelt drama. I recently finished a family drama with a young man who finds himself in his female cousin’s shoes, dealing with her cruel mom. Stories which deal with fantastical scenarios have a certain amount of leeway when it comes to “well actually a totally real person should be highly traumatized by this” of course. But it’s a work of fiction. Sometimes it’s an adventure predominantly. Other times a screwball comedy. If the author sets out to write that a physical change to a character has left them understandably dysphoric, then that’s another sort of story. I’ve actually dealt and worked on all variety. Not to toot my own horn, but I feel I’ve made some decent stories within the genre. Any genre has a multitude of works that range in quality. Sturgeon’s Law applies. That’s about all I have. Have a nice day and hope you find works more to your liking in the future.

Ranma 1/2 is one of the earliest anime I've watched and I like it. Your name is another amazing example. Unfortunately, I have not seen anything of that level among novels and now I just avoid it. Usually, in animes with gender bender like in Ranma and Your Name, there is something many novels do not have. In Ranma 1/2 main character Ranma behind all comedy is actually distressed about his curse and is trying to find a way to change, which is realistic. In Your Name change is temporary, that said characters still show right reactions when they change, especially when they change the first time. Still...I understand that sometimes the plot can be soooo good that many unrealistic elements become very trivial.

 

[angry_raccoon]

Joining a bit late to the party lol, but I do agree completely with so many of the critiques of the genre here, even if I like the idea of the genre itself--so many of the downsides of being a woman aren't really covered in the genre, and it's most often written for guys who want the benefits of having two women in a story for a wlw/lesbian romance while still having a male main character (albeit in a woman's body). The psychological aspect isn't really covered too well in a lot of these--where's the (initial) gender dysmorphia, lol? It's a bit of a frustrating genre, but I do feel like there is a lot of potential there. Yeah, it's fantasy and of course can skip all the psychological/physiological stuff, but I'd just love a little more diversity in the genre as a whole. I think that's my biggest gripe lol--I'd say it all seems to be employed the same way.

A general question with regards to the 'gender bender' genre (since we're on the topic of the genre)--are there any ftm books with that tag? In my book, the female MC who ends up being transmigrating/reincarnating a few times, sometimes into male or more androgynous bodies (and it actually takes a slower, psychological look at it and has her questioning her own gender (especially in a more masculine form), rather than running straight to the romance aspect haha. If limitless worlds exist, why not explore those elements? And plus looking at sexuality within different bodies too.)

I was curious and looked up the first 100...and every single one has a man being reborn as a woman, lol. If anyone has any others, I'd definitely like to hear it! Or a book with mtf, but where it's done with a more psychological sense in mind. :0

Edited: a line got duplicated, whoops

 

[sabazurc]

I was curious and looked up the first 100...and every single one has a man being reborn as a woman, lol.

 

[AliceShiki]

A general question with regards to the 'gender bender' genre (since we're on the topic of the genre)--are there any ftm books with that tag?

Series Finder | Scribble Hub

www.scribblehub.com

Some seem to be misstagged from a quick glance, but you should find what you want if you try scrolling down a bit.

 

[PieCoNsUmEr]

Yeesh, this thread has like 6 factions: the main 2 arguing, the anti-gender bender crowd who doesn’t listen to arguments, the pro-gender bender crowd who doesn’t listen to arguments, the shit-posters, and those actually trying to properly converse, and the shit-posters^2 (like me).

Anyways, to my opinion the most important one of all. They say ironically. Understanding that lazy self aware commentary isn’t original. And accepting that no matter how many layers of self awareness they go back the won’t be truly unique. Yet they continue. Out of place thing. “Ha ha so funny, right?”. “Yes hahaha ex dee!”. Hi future commenter saying something approximating “Well that was a thing.”. See self-aware-self-aware-self-aware-self-aware-self-aware jokes somewhat show the train of thought of the writer to the reader and make the reader feel weird because it’s kinda of things happening without a solid purpose. This goes on and on and on, this goes on and on and on, yeah. I did this because it was building up for a while, and I felt like it. “..... really?”.


Gender benders don’t work to well (add interesting aspects, that are more interesting being there than them not being there, or them being different) in many stories if the change isn’t the main focus of the story unless the author is a really good writer. Why I say this is because the gender bender aspects not being the lead focus lead them to being often underwritten or rushed, so they feel more distracting than enhancing. It’s actually the same problem in a lot of into another body stories, (example: reincarnated as a monster) where the MC has issues moving and/or interacting for a couple chapters, then is completely mobile or/and figured out how they would act in the future. Also the MC isn’t affected by their new body’s instincts.
Before someone comments, these criticisms are specifically for stories I consider underutilizing the MC new body. I know there are counter examples.

 

[AliceShiki]

Gender benders don’t work to well (add interesting aspects that are more interesting than them not being there) in many stories if the change isn’t the main focus of the story unless the author is a really good writer.

I agree with that~

I love gender bender, but I don't see a point in its existence if the gender change won't be a primary focus of the story.

 

[sabazurc]

Yeesh, this thread has like 6 factions: the main 2 arguing, the anti-gender bender crowd who doesn’t listen to arguments, the pro-gender bender crowd who doesn’t listen to arguments, the shit-posters, and those actually trying to properly converse, and the shit-posters^2 (like me).

Anyways, to my opinion the most important one of all. They say ironically. Understanding that lazy self aware commentary isn’t original. And accepting that no matter how many layers of self awareness they go back the won’t be truly unique. Yet they continue. Out of place thing. “Ha ha so funny, right?”. “Yes hahaha ex dee!”. Hi future commenter saying something approximating “Well that was a thing.”. See self-aware-self-aware-self-aware-self-aware-self-aware jokes somewhat show the train of thought of the writer to the reader and make the reader feel weird because it’s kinda of things happening without a solid purpose. This goes on and on and on, this goes on and on and on, yeah. I did this because it was building up for a while, and I felt like it. “..... really?”.


Gender benders don’t work to well (add interesting aspects, that are more interesting being there than them not being there, or them being different) in many stories if the change isn’t the main focus of the story unless the author is a really good writer. Why I say this is because the gender bender aspects not being the lead focus lead them to being often underwritten or rushed, so they feel more distracting than enhancing. It’s actually the same problem in a lot of into another body stories, (example: reincarnated as a monster) where the MC has issues moving and/or interacting for a couple chapters, then is completely mobile or/and figured out how they would act in the future. Also the MC isn’t affected by their new body’s instincts.
Before someone comments, these criticisms are specifically for stories I consider underutilizing the MC new body. I know there are counter examples.

I agree mostly, some later comments were interesting and had arguments tho. And you are wrong...MY OPINION MATTERS MOST, NOT YOURS

 

[Khiricastares]

I like gender-bender, but not in the same way others seem to think of good GB stories.
Bad ones are obvious, and that's where most of the hate comes from. Anything that turns into fetish fuel becomes a cesspool with enough exposure.
I see people putting Valrie as an example of good GB and I agree, but she does really well with realistic GB. And if that's all I wanted I could just get off the computer and go back to my life. I like looking for fantasy or less believable GB stories, ones where the transition and changes aren't fleshed out every step of the way. Maybe it's just a mechanism to avoid trauma or wish fulfillment.
But, even if things aren't written solely to focus on the GB transformation or aspect, I will always connect better with a character who has changed gender or has to pretend so. In most cases it is enough to have as backstory or be explored subtly through certain actions and choices which may seem normal without context.
The idea that GB is poorly written says more about who is writing it than the subject matter honestly.