You sound like an atheist version of an apologist.
You say no one ever says "there goes the neighborhood" when christians move in? I say that. (not in those words).
Do you own a home? Did Christians move in next door to you?
I live in the bible belt of america. I see the damage christianity causes on a daily basis. I see it in the people so poor that they cant always feed their family - yet donate 5 -10% to the church. I see the ignorance in the eyes of a believer when i talk about anything that might even come close to shaking their world view. I see the damage they cause to our political landscape: overturning roe vs wade, inserting zealots into positions of power, creating laws & legislature based on their twisted religion. I see the damage of their discrimination. I see their pride, they view themselves as holier, thus better than anyone who doesnt follow their philosophy. I see it in the natural curiosity they crush out of children.
Sigh... Compared to WHAT?
See, used to think like you. The problem is that you have the same problem I run into with many feminists. MEN ARE EVAL. LOOK, EVAL DEEDS!!!
Then I point to statistics and proof that these deeds are actually, quite tame. That men actually have it worse, BY FEMINIST'S OWN METRICS, and then they just... ignore it. I point to black people the damage caused by BLM. ACTUAL. DOCUMENTED. DAMAGE. And they just automatically ignore the facts. My father, claims he is against racism and sexism and bigotry, all the while automatically assuming that Trump is all these things. I ask, Prove it, and he points to sources debunked.
I always ask the following when I run up to people like this: HOW MANY SOURCES MUST I HAVE BEFORE YOU WILL CONSIDER CHANGING YOUR MIND? Because often the answer is: Infinite. People are creatures of passion and we use logic to justify our passions, not the other way around. We all do it. I do it. I did it. The first time someone shattered my preconceptions was on a call in show. I could not understand his possition. I just couldn't. I did not have the CONCEPT of what he was talking about. I was so sure I was right, that I was open minded, that I was willing to listen to any proof and that TRUTH WAS EVERYTHING.
What a humbling experience to be shown I am no better than anyone else.
I get it. I do. You spend all this time thinking and researching and then you reach a point where you feel X is true, only to find out that some of your base assumptions were wrong. FUNDIMENTAL ASSUMPTIONS. And then... you fix it, and you forget and it happens again. It took decades to come to a point where I could accept maybe I'm wrong. Not just lip service, because every atheist says, 'Yes, I could be wrong.', but do we REALLY believe that? Are we REALLY willing to put our own EGOS on the line? Are you willing to be humilliated if it means you are one step closer to the truth, even if it is a truth you HATE?
It isn't easy. Hell, I don't have a claim to being above it, just that I know I'm not.
I hate communism. You have no idea how PERSONALLY I hate it. How much damage the Nazis and Commies did to my family over the decades. You would not believe my family history and what we did. I am the youngest at 50 who still remembers what happened and maybe it's good that when I die it will be forgotten. What point is there in revenge at this point?
But even I can see what good there is in communism. It would not exist without some redeeming value. I can see the redeeming value in most religions. These things existed for a reason. The people who support these concepts do so because it had VALUE.
You see ignorance in people's eyes. How horrible for you. I work with the mentally and physically disabled and I can assure you, that you have no concept of ignorance. Why do you not see the achievements? The successes? The Joys? The wisdom? You see the ignorance.
Tell me, when you look back at the great achievements of atheists, what have we done to make the world a better place than we found it? I assure you, so much more has been done in the name of god, then in the name of NOT god. Have there been bad things in the name of god? Yes. But I can point to MANY bad things in the name of NOT GOD. So much to the point I am able to admit I am quite ashamed of Atheist as a movement.
Do you really believe you are so much better then these 'idiots', if we cannot make any claims to have done better?
Go work as a bill collector. 90 days. Give it three months on the phones. Then go work as suicide prevention for 90 days. Both will show you the underside of humanity. Ask those around you, who is faithful and who is not. Who actively helps their fellow man, and who doesn't.
Damage to the political landscape? Please. The vast majority of damage to the landscape these days is by godless Democrats. And not because they are democrats or godless. People who reject Absolute morality are more susceptible to Corruption by addiction. Power is addictive. Is is addiction that leads to corruption. Power itself just reveals a person's true nature. A evil person in charge will be evil. A good man will do good. But if they become corrupted by dopamine addiction to power, and yes, that is a thing. A good man will try to do good, but like any addict, they will do ANYTHING for that next hit.
This is how you find idiots as political leaders hiring hookers with government money. It isn't the hooker. it's the RISK. it is the RUSH. it is the attempt to get another FIX. I think 90% of problems could be fixed today if we just put everyone in office on low dose naltrexone.
It's easy to go, "There is go god', which I believe, then go, 'Religion is the cause of all ill'. It seems right. It seems like it fits. After all, it is a lie, right? Wouldn't the truth be better than a lie?
Yeah... I wish that was true, but it isn't. Life is murky. Not just shades of gray, but a rainbow of colors and grades of brightness and it can be beautiful or swill together into brown mud. People who live in a black and white world are idiots. People who live in a world of shades of grey are idiots too. There are far more moral directions then just Good/Evil or Law/Order. I include Legal/Illegal and Right/Wrong and Positive Results/Negative Results.
Tell me, oh fellow non-believer, if the data, the studies, and the "truth" showed that there is no god, but if everyone believed in the lie, the world would be a better place, would you support the truth or the lie? There was a time where I supported the truth, no matter what. Now that I have reached an age of half a century, I am no longer that man. I have seen too many suffer and die for the truth when just accepting that maybe... some lies don't matter.
People give up 10% of their money and you think they are fools? I promise you this, they are happier then you. They have more friends then you. They have more support than you. They are better off than you. I know it. Because I've seen it. I have been in the homes and in the streets and on the ledge talking people down. I have fought for a man's life and lost. I would go so far as to say I fought for his soul. I have tried to save children from parents that were fucked in ways you cannot imagine and you know what?
The worst parents don't believe in god.
You will quote me all these horrible things religions have done, but I would ask, what have you seen personally? What FACTS do you have? What problems in THIS MODERN WORLD, not from centuries ago, because trust me, everyone was an asshole 200+ years ago. The modern world is a wonderful place, even with all it's flaws.
You see the problem with their pride, well, I have seen the damage caused by atheist pride as well. I would imagine any flaw you could find in christian character that you could call up, I could find in Atheists, and we get far worse results. Why? Because most of us are atheists because we are lazy. Most Atheists go with atheist because it is EASIER, not because of some moral reason.
If you want to be happy, the first thing you need, the most basic thing, is the ability to DEFER GRATIFICATION. X-ians teach this to its members as a matter of course. Why? DO IT BECAUSE GOD SAID SO. But they DO IT. Atheists do not. Not usually. We are a lazy bunch and that's the problem. How do you drill into someone that you need to clean your room? I could spend hours teaching you the reasons behind it, or I could claim god will smite your ass. Which one works on 'ignorance' better?
The problem is, most people aren't smart. What I mean is, they don't think logically. Feelings first, facts follow. The fact is, deferred gratification is the number one indicator of future happiness. You want to be successful and happy? LEARN TO PUT OFF GRATIFICATION. If you can't do that, you won't be happy. The math is in. The science is done. The studies are finished. THIS IS TRUE.
Except, atheists suck at it. We do. Hate to hurt your pride, BUT WE DO NOT DO DEFERRED GRATIFICATION WELL. As a group. You might be different, but look at the community. Look at us as a whole. Step back and be prepared to be humiliated. Put your pride aside and REALLY look at us. Are we REALY better than those we claim are 'ignorant savages'?
And as the bodies pile up. When the children who follow your philosophy kills themselves, or destroy themselves slowly through drugs and a hundred other means, as you see the results of what your 'truth' has caused, tell me? Can you really sit there, typing at your keyboard tell me that it is 'good'?
You wanted Moral Relativity. Well, you got it! The truth is, your set of beliefs provides no philosophical weapons to protect the most vulnerable among our society from the harshness and cruelty of life. We smash the lies, while replacing it with nothing. We leave people with nothing and you claim that 'they' are the bad guys?
I assume you are like most atheists. You broke through the programming and you sought truth. Well, I ask you, why did you stop? Are you REALLY willing to seek truth out, no matter the consequence? I did. I don't regret it, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it hurt like fuck.
Listen to the cranky old Jew. I know what you believe, what you accept on faith, ironically enough. trust me when I say, you need to take a long, hard, difficult look at the END RESULT. What do you believe in that you just accept that might not be true? Because, I see many X-ians who I know I could destroy. I have argued with many a theist and I have converted quite a few to atheist. My logic is strong. My facts are solid. My will is FIGHT.
Yet, when I step back and do a cold, calculating, time/motion profit/loss assessment, I have to admit, Atheism makes the world worse than it found it.
The world isn't ready. We can't force it to just abandon god. The world needs to slowly change if it isn't going to move on past this. I don't care if Atheism is correct, the harm it causes is far worse than the alternative. So I have come to the simple conclusion that theists are not my enemies. People who hurt others are my enemy. People who seek nihilism are my enemy. If someone is faithful, and they are not a victim of addiction, and they seek to make the world a better place, then I will call them friend.
Can you do that? Can you call a theist friend? Is there no room for love in your heart?
Because all the theists I know, the ones who actually practice what they preach, they have room for love in theirs for me. Yes, it's annoying when they try to save me, but you know what? They might be misguided, but they do want what they think is best for me. And why do they do it?
Because God told them they should.
So tell me, if someone does the right thing, for the wrong reason, how bad is it, really?
