Tribal mentality

[KiraMinoru]

Whether that is the case or not is irrelevant. Whether someone is a critical thinker or a decisive actor isn't based on their hormone levels. Not to the extent that it would affect this discussion, at least.

But it would. Hormones effect everyone’s judgement and how they formulate their views and reactions.

Take a man with high levels of testosterone and a man with high levels of estrogen and throw them onto the battlefield and see the sort of decision they make to survive. The man with high levels of testosterone will take a risk and fight head on to survive. Will the man with high levels of estrogen make the same decision? No, they will not, they would not run in and fight, they would opt to flee. Why? Because these hormones affect ones aggressive nature.

Even suggesting that hormones don’t or won’t impact ones decisions is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. Teens make stupid ass decisions all the time because their hormones are out of whack and constantly fluctuating.

 

[Zirrboy]

Nah, I specifically vague the whole thing just to see whether or not would you blindly help your loved ones.

As to why I never add a "maybe", cuz I hate middle answer.

Being vague defeats the purpose.

On this level of abstraction, people are either going to assume their own details, or found their decision on how they want to be perceived/what choice they deem moral.
None of which helps you answer the question.

So you either make up a story that only reveals the issue by the end, so as to get others emotionally attached to the scenario, or forgo the "thought experiment" entirely and just ask the question.

At least that way you get answers on the personal tribalism.

The second option is worse than the first, but I'll put it here so as to avoid the "Nah, I'm lazy" answer

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

Once the fighting starts, an individual's reasons don't matter. If you hate the other side or not, you fight to survive. Or to help your family survive. Compassion is the source of conflict in this case. In order for compassion to stop a fight, you have to show it to other side. Those nameless, faceless people who are literally shooting at you. But it's very unlikely they will return your feelings.

True to an extent, if someone is coming at me or someone I'm with with a hammer and they don't stop when I tell them to stop, they're getting .45, they had their opportunity to turn back. If possible, however, they would get that opportunity to turn back. Compassion, however, isn't necessarily the source of the conflict and the question didn't say anyone was shooting at you or your loved ones. You're adding qualifiers to your answer in the same manner I am, yet you're acting like you're not. I don't appreciate the dishonesty.

Would you help or abandon your loved ones in the midst of conflict? That's the question. And the thing is, no amount of talking will change a person's answer. It's a personal value.

Personal values change all the time. Why do you think people run ads, election campaigns, or radio shows?

It’s kind of funny how you can tell based on each person’s answer how high or low their testosterone/estrogen levels are. If you’ve got too much estrogen you’re going to take some wishy washy status quo stance, the safer one. If you’ve got more testosterone, you’ll take the riskier option.

Testosterone levels being at an all time low in men is the perfect embodiment of the sorts of responses you see in this thread.

As for me, idgaf, I’d go to war since it’s the more interesting option.

That's just inane. Not the T level thing, there is solid science behind it, but it doesn't work like most people think. T production is increased by hostility, anger, and disgust just as much as eating certain foods or the influence of chems. You are more in control of how much of a certain hormone you have in you than the manosphere would like you to believe, and conscious thought can override the influence of said hormones. It's enough to start a nature vs. nurture argument but that's way off topic.

I doubt that you'd go to war because it's more interesting, and if you would, you're not someone I'd want to see obtain a rank beyond corporal in any army.

I don't know why I thought my stance would be more common, but nope. Half the guys here are dancing around the obvious few choices like they are practicing a rendition of the Mexican sombrero dance.

Wouldn't say that I've been dancing around the topic, it's just fun to engage with it in this way. I see this discussion getting volatile for no reason at all if it continues for a few more pages, though. What say you?

If people can truly weight and debate within themselves to find out what outcome for the situation benefits them, when a loved one is involved, then that is the truly scarily thing. For they have become as Chaplin said, "Machine Men, with Machine Hearts."

Not necessarily. We can easily be weighing whether the decision will stand a better chance of harming our loved ones rather than helping them, or if said decision is even necessary at all. The Chaplin quote doesn't even work in this context I think.

 

[LordJoyde]

Sure, you'd come to the defense of a friend, no one would fault you for that, but would you help your friend attack someone before hearing a single reason as to why? How far would you take it beyond the initial conflict?

To be quite frank, I'm not someone that gives much care for the opinions of strangers. If I consider someone a friend and they're doing something bad to another person, I'm still going to 'help' them.

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

To be quite frank, I'm not someone that gives much care for the opinions of strangers. If I consider someone a friend and they're doing something bad to another person, I'm still going to 'help' them.

I see, I see. If they're doing something bad to them, you would help. I would to.

But what I'm interested in is if you would do something bad to someone your friend was targeting simply because they asked you to. Which could, of course, be interpreted in all manners of bad faith, but that's what I feel like the general thrust of the OP's question lies in.

 

[KiraMinoru]

I doubt that you'd go to war because it's more interesting, and if you would, you're not someone I'd want to see obtain a rank beyond corporal in any army.

I would go to war though. So what if I die? At least it would be a more interesting decision than sitting back on the sidelines on a couch all day doing nothing. It’d be a much more fulfilling life than a bland unchanging one repeating and doing the same things over and over again day in and day out.

You could go your entire life hiding inside a hole living a long life or go out with a bang living a short one. I’d much rather go out with a bang and a short one. A long life means nothing if it was a boring one where you ended up a hollow empty shell of a person only existing to be treated like cattle who only ever saw things from inside your tiny little bubble.

 

[T.K._Paradox]

But it would. Hormones effect everyone’s judgement and how they formulate their views and reactions.

Take a man with high levels of testosterone and a man with high levels of estrogen and throw them onto the battlefield and see the sort of decision they make to survive. The man with high levels of testosterone will take a risk and fight head on to survive. Will the man with high levels of estrogen make the same decision? No, they will not, they would not run in and fight, they would opt to flee. Why? Because these hormones affect ones aggressive nature.

Even suggesting that hormones don’t impact ones decisions is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. Teens make stupid ass decisions all the time because their hormones are out of whack and constantly fluctuating.

I am not saying that high estrogen isn't a part of the problem, because it is, but I honestly believe that cortisol, the hormone related to stress and anxiety, is the bigger problem.

High levels of Cortisol can be caused by bad posturing, being fat, a poor diet. It also leads to a drastic decrease in testosterone as well.

And with how today's teenagers are in a constant state of stress via social media, and other outside factors, they cope with their stress in very unhealthy ways.

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

I would go to war though. So what if I die? At least it would be a more interesting decision than sitting back on the sidelines on a couch all day doing nothing. It’d be a much more fulfilling life than a bland unchanging one repeating and doing the same things over and over again day in and day out.

You could go your entire life hiding inside a hole living a long life or go out with a bang living a short one. I’d much rather go out with a bang and a short one. A long life means nothing it it was a boring one where you ended up a hollow empty shell of a person only existing to be treated like cattle who only ever saw things from inside your tiny little bubble.

There are several armed conflicts you can involve yourself in right now in the 2nd and 3rd world. Entire PMCs profit off of it and would welcome anyone even as admin/support staff if you aren't fit to hold a rifle yourself, look hard enough, and you can probably find a group that would pick you up. Why are you not in some makeshift FOB right now?

 

[Cipiteca396]

You're adding qualifiers to your answer in the same manner I am, yet you're acting like you're not. I don't appreciate the dishonesty.

Meh, I got caught up in answering you instead of staying on topic. I was referring to your responses instead of the original post.

Even suggesting that hormones don’t or won’t impact ones decisions is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. Teens make stupid ass decisions all the time because their hormones are out of whack and constantly fluctuating.

The thing is, you're talking about something completely irrelevant. The people talking in this thread aren't soldiers on a battle field or volatile teens making dumb decisions. Your initial statement was nonsense, and the 'evidence' you provided to back it up was nothing but straw for your strawman. Either stay on topic or- No, just stay on topic.

I am not saying that high estrogen isn't a part of the problem, because it is, but I honestly believe that cortisol, the hormone related to stress and anxiety, is the bigger problem.

High levels of Cortisol can be caused by bad posturing, being fat, a poor diet. It also leads to a drastic decrease in testosterone as well.

And with how today's teenagers are in a constant state of stress via social media, and other outside factors, they cope with their stress in very unhealthy ways.

Sorry for this, since it's mostly my fault. But stay on topic? It would be hypocritical to yell at that person and not you.

I would go to war though. So what if I die? At least it would be a more interesting decision than sitting back on the sidelines on a couch all day doing nothing. It’d be a much more fulfilling life than a bland unchanging one repeating and doing the same things over and over again day in and day out.

You could go your entire life hiding inside a hole living a long life or go out with a bang living a short one. I’d much rather go out with a bang and a short one. A long life means nothing it it was a boring one where you ended up a hollow empty shell of a person only existing to be treated like cattle who only ever saw things from inside your tiny little bubble.

You can go to war any time you like. There's hundreds of thousands of alternatives to sitting on the couch. The reason you aren't taking those options is because you are either too scared or not as bored as you think you are.

 

[Discount_Blade]

Wouldn't say that I've been dancing around the topic, it's just fun to engage with it in this way. I see this discussion getting volatile for no reason at all if it continues for a few more pages, though. What say you?

I say what I said before. In the heat of the moment, there is no deep thinking involved. My stance is still the 4 possible routes I listed in an earlier post. That's it. As for the topic getting volatile, I think it's because there are those who want a straight answer, and those who are only hypothesizing potentialities and avoiding picking anything at all.

But do as you please. Say what you wish. This is all just a discussion on a theoretical situation/scenario after all. It would be odd to get overly heated about it, I agree.

 

[KiraMinoru]

I am not saying that high estrogen isn't a part of the problem, because it is, but I honestly believe that cortisol, the hormone related to stress and anxiety, is the bigger problem.

High levels of Cortisol can be caused by bad posturing, being fat, a poor diet. It also leads to a drastic decrease in testosterone as well.

And with how today's teenagers are in a constant state of stress via social media, and other outside factors, they cope with their stress in very unhealthy ways.

If we’re being real here, the true problem is the way the algorithm is designed to be as addictive as possible. It promotes negative content because that’s more likely to gain responses and engagement. So kids are in a situation where they’re constantly seeing negative shit and it turns into an out of control feedback loop. Another problem is the dopamine rush generated through social media from seeing numbers get bigger thinking they’re becoming something. Social media just acts as a means of positive reinforcement for doing stupid shit. Stupid shit becomes associated with success in their mind. It’s just a negative spiral and what’s really affecting them.

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

I like you, Cipiteca396 and @Discount_Blade , interesting fellows to talk to. Don't take my disagreement to your stances or whatever you can glean from my politics as something larger than it is please. I'm having fun.

 

[Discount_Blade]

Social media just acts as a means of positive reinforcement for doing stupid shit. Stupid shit becomes associated with success in their mind. It’s just a negative spiral and what’s really affecting them.

So in short, Twitter and to a lesser but still noticeable extent, Facebook.

 

[T.K._Paradox]

True to an extent, if someone is coming at me or someone I'm with with a hammer and they don't stop when I tell them to stop, they're getting .45, they had their opportunity to turn back. If possible, however, they would get that opportunity to turn back. Compassion, however, isn't necessarily the source of the conflict and the question didn't say anyone was shooting at you or your loved ones. You're adding qualifiers to your answer in the same manner I am, yet you're acting like you're not. I don't appreciate the dishonesty.



Personal values change all the time. Why do you think people run ads, election campaigns, or radio shows?



That's just inane. Not the T level thing, there is solid science behind it, but it doesn't work like most people think. T production is increased by hostility, anger, and disgust just as much as eating certain foods or the influence of chems. You are more in control of how much of a certain hormone you have in you than the manosphere would like you to believe, and conscious thought can override the influence of said hormones. It's enough to start a nature vs. nurture argument but that's way off topic.

I doubt that you'd go to war because it's more interesting, and if you would, you're not someone I'd want to see obtain a rank beyond corporal in any army.




Wouldn't say that I've been dancing around the topic, it's just fun to engage with it in this way. I see this discussion getting volatile for no reason at all if it continues for a few more pages, though. What say you?



Not necessarily. We can easily be weighing whether the decision will stand a better chance of harming our loved ones rather than helping them, or if said decision is even necessary at all. The Chaplin quote doesn't even work in this context I think.

You make a fair point, I was purely looking at it from people wanting to mostly benefit form it. I didn't consider the positive view of this mechanical line of thinking.

I still believe the quote fits, and still unfortunately believe most people that think like this are more likely to be heartless than helpful, but again you make a fair point of there being positives in this line of thinking.

 

[KiraMinoru]

There are several armed conflicts you can involve yourself in right now in the 2nd and 3rd world. Entire PMCs profit off of it and would welcome anyone even as admin/support staff if you aren't fit to hold a rifle yourself, look hard enough, and you can probably find a group that would pick you up. Why are you not in some makeshift FOB right now?

Unfortunately with a disabled mother without any other family to look after her acting as a shackle, it’s impossible. I’m not particularly interested in a boring desk job or admin work. I’d have loved to join the military as a combat engineer, and did apply in the past, but it’d mean her having to fend for herself. The money wouldn’t be enough to take care of her.

 

[Zirrboy]

And with how today's teenagers are in a constant state of stress via social media, and other outside factors, they cope with their stress in very unhealthy ways.

Yee, better get off SH before Ben's furry shitposts turn you into a psych ward case.

 

[Discount_Blade]

Ben's furry shitposts

Have been extremely amused by these. Learned things about Minecraft I never thought I would, and I hate Minecraft! Ben can be educational at times.

 

[T.K._Paradox]

I like you, Cipiteca396 and @Discount_Blade , interesting fellows to talk to. Don't take my disagreement to your stances or whatever you can glean from my politics as something larger than it is please. I'm having fun.

It is fun to debate someone that doesn't hurl insults at you when their argument is poked at with the slightest hint of doubt.

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

Unfortunately with a disabled mother without any other family to look after her acting as a shackle, it’s impossible. I’m not particularly interested in a boring desk job or admin work. I’d have loved to join the military as a combat engineer, and did apply in the past, but it’d mean her having to fend for herself. The money wouldn’t be enough to take care of her.

Nonsense.

You haven't made a gofundme, or saved up for a professional caretaker to help her while you go off to shoot people who hold no ill intent towards you specifically. As a soldier in the US, you'd make $1833 a month at E1 (private) alone, more than enough to get hired assistance with insurance, and as your rank grew, your capacity to help your loved ones even if you were away would grow as well. IIRC, she'd be more than well taken care of off a life insurance policy offered by the military if you died.

If you wanted to, you could.

 

[Zirrboy]

Have been extremely amused by these. Learned things about Minecraft I never thought I would, and I hate Minecraft! Ben can be educational at times.

That's how he gets to you
Friendly, entertaining and with just the right degree of lunacy to seem harmless.

But dread the day he gets serious