What exactly is the Fantasy genre?

[Ai-chan]

1. Does it always involve magic?
2. If the story is about a group of people who lives in a space colony of some sort (still, zero magic involved), is it full Sci-Fi, or part that and Fantasy?

It doesn't need to involve magic. Fantasy is basically anything non-real with extra elements. For example, a story set in medieval France is just historical, but if you make the story also revolve around a vampire, that becomes fantasy. Similar, if the story is set in medieval France but is a medieval France of parallel world where you got flying pigs, that's also fantasy.

If the story is about a group of people who lives in a space colony, it's sci-fi. If you include supernatural elements such as ghosts, that could be sci-fi & fantasy. If you include ESP such as telekinesis or preconception, that becomes sci-fi and fantasy. If your sci-fi is not a hard sci-fi, as in you could travel around space without a space suit (such as Dragon Ball), that ceases to be sci-fi and becomes fantasy.

 

[Bartun]

It doesn't. There are stories where spirits are involved, but no magic whatsoever.

I've read before that the term Fantasy is really broad. In fact, if what I know still applies (do correct me if I'm wrong), there are a lot of subgenres in Fantasy, like...

1) High Fantasy--basically the setting is in another world. (Like the Tolkien Legendarium)
2) Low Fantasy--a story that is set on Earth, in a contemporary age. (Shakugan no Shana is an example)
3) Bangsian Fantasy--named after an author, it's a fantasy that involved famous dead people and their deeds after their death. (Just like in Drifters)
4) Lovecraftian Fantasy--I read this in some article a few years back; basically, stories with Lovecraft elements became separate from the standard fantasy subgenres due to many authors using and developing this trope.
5) Time-travel Fantasy--yeah, anything with time-travel stuff.
6) Sci-fi Fantasy--maybe this would be controversial (or many would disagree), but Science Fiction can also be considered 'fantasy', though it's been well-developed that it can (and did) become a genre of its own.
7) Supernatural Fantasy--a subgenre that often involves spiritualism, and the border between magic and the supernatural is blurred.

I forgot the other 'established' sub-genres, so feel free to add them.

Also, if I may add (based on what I observed):

> Isekai Fantasy--a popular fantasy 'subgenre' nowadays, where the premise is someone from contemporary Earth being transported to another world. Can be further subdivided into 'power fantasy', 'villainess', 'revenge fantasy', 'wish-fulfillment', 'survival game', and 'reverse isekai'.

Well, as someone who's involved in teaching literature to students, I believe genres--like languages--are dynamic. Those terms don't stay in their definitions for too long, and sometime later, it will evolve into several other forms. A good example of this is my above-mentioned example, Isekai. Back in early 2000s, 'isekai' is limited maybe only to the Japanese, since it's their term for another world. Then, when the light novel, Zero no Tsukaima (The Familiar of Zero) came out (and became popular to my generation; I'm already 33, btw), a lot of authors were inspired to write stories where the MC got summoned into another world, possessing and using modern Earth knowledge to their advantage.

Hence the spread of the word, 'Isekai'.

Isekai is way older, although it used to be called "Portal fantasy". Examples are Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, The Chronicles of Narnia, and John Carter of Mars.

 

[CapitaoCaverna]

Unless the setting is Pern, where the dragons were genetically engineered from fire lizards.

I'm pretty sure you could call Pern fantasy man.

In fact, I just did a quick search and half the results said it was fantasy.

The other half was a mix of science fiction and science fantasy so...

Yeah... It has dragons, dragons that do magic, it's fantasy. (it's explained with sciency words, but I'm absolutely sure half the people who read just think of it as magic's. I know I did when I first read it many years ago)

 

[CubicleHermit]

Unless the setting is Pern, where the dragons were genetically engineered from fire lizards.

I'm pretty sure you could call Pern fantasy man.

Pern is a Rorschach test of the SF vs Fantasy distinction if there ever was one, although it also really shifts in tone as the series goes on. The two books and the Harper Hall trilogy feel like pure fantasy, and then the elements that feel like SF keep creeping in more and more.

Being old enough to remember the series before Dragon's Dawn (the colony-ship prequel that's about as full-on-SF as the series gets), it's especially muddy.

Either way, most of the books in the series are a good read.

Isekai is way older, although it used to be called "Portal fantasy". Examples are Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, The Chronicles of Narnia, and John Carter of Mars.

A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, as well. Not quite as old as Alice In Wonderland, but very Isekai before there was Isekai.

 

[ConansWitchBaby]

I haven't seen anyone mention Connecticut Yankee in ages. I love the end with the ages old paper making the reader question if it was real or a delusion further.
Oh right, fantasy is having a hallucination and writing it down.

Sci-fi is looking at real data with a squint, get an aneurysm for only knowing the surface level of the data, then hallucinating about said data and writing it down.

Sci-fi fantasy is just sci-fi with a different coat on. No exceptions. It's just either guess work or decades old tropes being restrung together by people that think it's fine just because it's a standard.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

Isekai is way older, although it used to be called "Portal fantasy". Examples are Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, The Chronicles of Narnia, and John Carter of Mars.

Yeah, we have samples of 'proto'-isekai like those samples you mentioned, but as you said it's called 'Portal Fantasy'.

I think what sets apart isekai from Portal Fantasy is that, in isekai, characters use their modern Earth knowledge in solving the problems and conflicts they encounter (like modern farming methods, modern weapons vs medieval weapons and magic), and also, the contrast between the 'old methods and thoughts' (i. e. medieval) and 'new methods and thoughts' (brought by the MC) is always shown and often at odds against each other. Hence, there was a boon of 'power' fantasies after ZnT; everyone's trying to explore the 'what ifs' in the clash of modern Earth sense, and traditional (mostly medieval) methods and culture. Think of it like the MC using his modern ideas in bulldozing the old ones, which is technically a cheat, and of course, modern Earth sense always prevail.

Whereas in classic Portal Fantasies, characters usually just go on adventure (like in Narnia, I haven't seen the Pevensies, Polly, Digory, Jill and Eustace apply modern Earth tactics--like proposing they grab some Lee-Enfield rifles and shoot the Audacious bitch witch from afar--in fighting against their respective villains...though, some parts showed the contrast between their modern sense and Narnia's culture, as exemplified by Dawn Treader's Eustace. Or in Wizard of Oz where the MC uses the power of friendship and her shoe, instead of building a hot air baloon and fly from point A to point B in no time). Transported characters often defer to the methods and culture of the people around them, and their focus is on accomplishing the task with their world's limitations.

 

[owotrucked]

Sci-fi is looking at real data with a squint, get an aneurysm for only knowing the surface level of the data, then hallucinating about said data and writing it down.

It's called academia, and if you bullshit the professors hard enough, you win a phD

 

[Bartun]

Yeah, we have samples of 'proto'-isekai like those samples you mentioned, but as you said it's called 'Portal Fantasy'.

I think what sets apart isekai from Portal Fantasy is that, in isekai, characters use their modern Earth knowledge in solving the problems and conflicts they encounter (like modern farming methods, modern weapons vs medieval weapons and magic), and also, the contrast between the 'old methods and thoughts' (i. e. medieval) and 'new methods and thoughts' (brought by the MC) is always shown and often at odds against each other. Hence, there was a boon of 'power' fantasies after ZnT; everyone's trying to explore the 'what ifs' in the clash of modern Earth sense, and traditional (mostly medieval) methods and culture. Think of it like the MC using his modern ideas in bulldozing the old ones, which is technically a cheat, and of course, modern Earth sense always prevail.

Whereas in classic Portal Fantasies, characters usually just go on adventure (like in Narnia, I haven't seen the Pevensies, Polly, Digory, Jill and Eustace apply modern Earth tactics--like proposing they grab some Lee-Enfield rifles and shoot the Audacious bitch witch from afar--in fighting against their respective villains...though, some parts showed the contrast between their modern sense and Narnia's culture, as exemplified by Dawn Treader's Eustace. Or in Wizard of Oz where the MC uses the power of friendship and her shoe, instead of building a hot air baloon and fly from point A to point B in no time). Transported characters often defer to the methods and culture of the people around them, and their focus is on accomplishing the task with their world's limitations.

True. I think Isekai walks near Power Fantasy, especially modern ones.

John Carter of Mars didn't need modern Earth knowledge though as he was kinda overpowered. Also, the kids in Narnia wouldn't be too knowledgeable about their time's technology. I think early Portal Fantasy was aimed toward kids, while modern Japanese Isekai aims at a more mature audience.

 

[CubicleHermit]

I haven't seen anyone mention Connecticut Yankee in ages. I love the end with the ages old paper making the reader question if it was real or a delusion further.
Oh right, fantasy is having a hallucination and writing it down.

I should re-read it - I haven't since I was in high school, I think, but it was super influential in western SF, leading to a whole bunch of other examples below...

I think what sets apart isekai from Portal Fantasy is that, in isekai, characters use their modern Earth knowledge in solving the problems and conflicts they encounter (like modern farming methods, modern weapons vs medieval weapons and magic), and also, the contrast between the 'old methods and thoughts' (i. e. medieval) and 'new methods and thoughts' (brought by the MC) is always shown and often at odds against each other. Hence, there was a boon of 'power' fantasies after ZnT; everyone's trying to explore the 'what ifs' in the clash of modern Earth sense, and traditional (mostly medieval) methods and culture. Think of it like the MC using his modern ideas in bulldozing the old ones, which is technically a cheat, and of course, modern Earth sense always prevail.

There's a lot of that in a certain strain of western portal fantasy, starting with Connecticut Yankee - he introduces guns to that era and takes advantage of an Eclipse. Followed up by the L Sprague de Camp classics - both Lest Darkness Fall and (intersecting with actual fantasy, not just fantastic time travel) the Compleat Enchanter/Harold Shea stories.

Lest Darkness Fall is also a nice case because the author doesn't make the MC overpowered, and a lot of the modern stuff doesn't work.

I think most of the modern versions of that basically come from Connecticut Yankee and Lest Darkness Fall, but there's almost a cottage industry of "modern folks go back in time, export modern knowledge" (the Conrad Stargard books, 1632 and sequels, Island in the Sea of Time, Weapons of Choice, and from an unusual downtimer's point of view, Guns of the South) or when not involving time travel but actually other worlds, the Lost Regiment series (Civil War American soldiers in a world ruled by aliens whose culture resembles the mongols but worse) and the Videssos books (interestingly, almost a case of forward in time - IIRC, it's an early-Imperial-era Roman legion going to a fantasy world that's basically the Byzantine empire with magic)

There's a bit of it in the 1980s "sucked into a D&D game" although it's more often metagame knowledge than actual modern stuff (true for plenty of Japanese Isekai stories, too) - the Gamearth series, and Guardians of the Flame come immediately to mind (although I think there's also some introducing of gunpowder later in the series.)

 

[Deleted member 54065]

I should re-read it - I haven't since I was in high school, I think, but it was super influential in western SF, leading to a whole bunch of other examples below...


There's a lot of that in a certain strain of western portal fantasy, starting with Connecticut Yankee - he introduces guns to that era and takes advantage of an Eclipse. Followed up by the L Sprague de Camp classics - both Lest Darkness Fall and (intersecting with actual fantasy, not just fantastic time travel) the Compleat Enchanter/Harold Shea stories.

Lest Darkness Fall is also a nice case because the author doesn't make the MC overpowered, and a lot of the modern stuff doesn't work.

I think most of the modern versions of that basically come from Connecticut Yankee and Lest Darkness Fall, but there's almost a cottage industry of "modern folks go back in time, export modern knowledge" (the Conrad Stargard books, 1632 and sequels, Island in the Sea of Time, Weapons of Choice, and from an unusual downtimer's point of view, Guns of the South) or when not involving time travel but actually other worlds, the Lost Regiment series (Civil War American soldiers in a world ruled by aliens whose culture resembles the mongols but worse) and the Videssos books (interestingly, almost a case of forward in time - IIRC, it's an early-Imperial-era Roman legion going to a fantasy world that's basically the Byzantine empire with magic)

There's a bit of it in the 1980s "sucked into a D&D game" although it's more often metagame knowledge than actual modern stuff (true for plenty of Japanese Isekai stories, too) - the Gamearth series, and Guardians of the Flame come immediately to mind (although I think there's also some introducing of gunpowder later in the series.)

Hmm...I think Connecticut Yankee is also 'Portal Fantasy' than isekai, simply for the fact that the MC got transported into the medieval world of King Arthur, which is--if we classify it between low and high fantasies--a low fantasy (takes place on Earth, even with magic and fantastical places). And one thing I observed about isekais is that, while some MCs start average (or even weak), the technologies/ideas they export are already OP, often solves the problems of the story and moving the plot.

So in any case, from what I gather in this thread, it seems safe to say that Portal Fantasy is the 'father' of isekai fantasy.

True. I think Isekai walks near Power Fantasy, especially modern ones.

John Carter of Mars didn't need modern Earth knowledge though as he was kinda overpowered. Also, the kids in Narnia wouldn't be too knowledgeable about their time's technology. I think early Portal Fantasy was aimed toward kids, while modern Japanese Isekai aims at a more mature audience.

I really do think that isekais are catered for people who love 'power fantasies'. The story that started the fad, Zero no Tsukaima/Familiar of Zero, answered the question of, "What might happen if someone brings an AK-47/Mitsubishi A6 Zero in a fight against wyverns and dragons?"

(Yes, I know and aware of Gate, but it's first volume was published two years after The Familiar of Zero in 2004. Gate also answered the question of, "What might happen if a modern professional army/country is transported into another world?")

 

[CubicleHermit]

Hmm...I think Connecticut Yankee is also 'Portal Fantasy' than isekai, simply for the fact that the MC got transported into the medieval world of King Arthur, which is--if we classify it between low and high fantasies--a low fantasy (takes place on Earth, even with magic and fantastical places). And one thing I observed about isekais is that, while some MCs start average (or even weak), the technologies/ideas they export are already OP, often solves the problems of the story and moving the plot.

It's clearly portal fantasy, yeah, however much it predates the term.

It is, however, very much a power fantasy in the same sense that many (but not all) Isekai stories are - he gets by and basically takes over a country on modern knowledge and technology. It was a common enough pattern that Lest Darkness Fall averted the trope and tried to play it more realistically... like 80 years ago. :)

The Conrad Stargard/Cross-time Engineer books are particularly wankish versions of the power fantasy, including a western example of unearned cheat abilities not related to future knowledge at the very beginning (superpowered sword? Check. Hyperintelligent super-horse? Check.) .I was really fond of those when I was about 15 :) but on rereading a lot more recently the main character is never really seriously challenged and is kind of a dick, not to mention the author's really, really sketchy views on girls/women.

So in any case, from what I gather in this thread, it seems safe to say that Portal Fantasy is the 'father' of isekai fantasy.

Some sort of very close relative, at least.

I really do think that isekais are catered for people who love 'power fantasies'. The story that started the fad, Zero no Tsukaima/Familiar of Zero, answered the question of, "What might happen if someone brings an AK-47/Mitsubishi A6 Zero in a fight against wyverns and dragons?"

I didn't realize it went that way - I've checked out like 2 episodes of that and assumed it was pretty much assuming it was using the Isekai setting to put together something more like a typical romcom.

Whether it's the modern-knowledge version (or literally modern capabilities in GATE's case) or the unearned cheat skills or metagame knowledge or just a whole heaping load of coincidence in the MC's favor, yes, there are certainly a LOT of power fantasies involved in both a subset of western portal fantasy and in Isekai stories.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

It's clearly portal fantasy, yeah, however much it predates the term.

It is, however, very much a power fantasy in the same sense that many (but not all) Isekai stories are - he gets by and basically takes over a country on modern knowledge and technology. It was a common enough pattern that Lest Darkness Fall averted the trope and tried to play it more realistically... like 80 years ago. :)

The Conrad Stargard/Cross-time Engineer books are particularly wankish versions of the power fantasy, including a western example of unearned cheat abilities not related to future knowledge at the very beginning (superpowered sword? Check. Hyperintelligent super-horse? Check.) .I was really fond of those when I was about 15 :) but on rereading a lot more recently the main character is never really seriously challenged and is kind of a dick, not to mention the author's really, really sketchy views on girls/women.

One thing I noticed about power fantasies is that they have a really poor idea of the ladies. Maybe because some of those authors themselves are introverts, or got their ideas from other poorly-written (on women at least) stories? Anyhow, I myself am an introvert, and can barely hold on my own when talking to people of my age (younger ones are not included), but I do try to rectify my writing of characters by observing real life people's behavior.

Some sort of very close relative, at least.


I didn't realize it went that way - I've checked out like 2 episodes of that and assumed it was pretty much assuming it was using the Isekai setting to put together something more like a typical romcom.

ZnT? Well, isekai and harem setting, yes, though the MMC was alive when summoned. And he really did work his way up and chose a single girl in the end.

Btw, my interest in that story started when I watched the anime. Then, when I learned that it was originally a light novel, I found one at Baka-Tsuki. Back then, the fad was all about school-magic animes (like Shakugan no Shana, Index, Kaze no Stigma, Haruhi, Bakemonogatari, etc.)

The reason why I said ZnT started the 'isekai' fad is because after the airing of the first and second season of the anime, stories like Arifureta, Shield Bro, Gate and Mushoku Tensei became increasingly popular (late 2000s and early to mid 2010s). And from what I learned in other author friends of mine, some of the isekai authors of the mid-late 2010s point to ZnT as their inspiration for writing isekai. I also remember myself skipping class and going to the mall (and I'm the teacher ) just because I wanted to binge read all the chapters of several volumes of Shield Bro and Mushoku Tensei.

Whether it's the modern-knowledge version (or literally modern capabilities in GATE's case) or the unearned cheat skills or metagame knowledge or just a whole heaping load of coincidence in the MC's favor, yes, there are certainly a LOT of power fantasies involved in both a subset of western portal fantasy and in Isekai stories.

Man, I'm really loving this talk/exchange of ideas. I'm learning a lot and at the same I get to share my own observations.

In any case, thanks for the information as well. I'm getting the idea of checking out the works you mentioned, since I love writing isekai stuff.

 

[Sabruness]

the OP's question is like asking "what exactly is the Sci Fi genre?". apart from extremely broad generalist answers, it's a very hard question to accurately answer.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

the OP's question is like asking "what exactly is the Sci Fi genre?". apart from extremely broad generalist answers, it's a very hard question to accurately answer.

Well, we're dealing with creative stuff, and like all other creatives, literature genres can be mixed with blurred lines on which is which.

 

[CubicleHermit]

One thing I noticed about power fantasies is that they have a really poor idea of the ladies. Maybe because some of those authors themselves are introverts, or got their ideas from other poorly-written (on women at least) stories? Anyhow, I myself am an introvert, and can barely hold on my own when talking to people of my age (younger ones are not included), but I do try to rectify my writing of characters by observing real life people's behavior.

There's something to that, for sure. I suspect there are also some authors who know better, but just write to genre tropes (of either continent's) because it's what they think their readers expect. Women can easily be just another reward token for the MC who gets everything handed to them.

Man, I'm really loving this talk/exchange of ideas. I'm learning a lot and at the same I get to share my own observations.

Thanks! Same here; I'm a relative newcomer to non-western media. I've been watching really mainstream anime for a long time, but really only got into it more seriously in the past 7 or so years (and light novels a good bit more recently than that), so I don't have a lot of context, where with the western SF/Fantasy I've been reading for as long as I can remember and trying to write it (usually in small chunks that go nowhere) since middle school.

I'm also reminded of the whole Isekai "alignment charts" that people have done, some of which have done an interesting job of deconstructing elements of it.

The other amusing one is using Isekai as a framing story for what could just be a regular overpowered fantasy story. It's possible that the original source material has more, but I've seen a lot of anime where after the first episode there's nothing calling back to the MC's origins and it could be any other kid who was a magical/combat/whatever prodigy (8th Son are you kidding me? is the first that comes to mind)

 

[Deleted member 54065]

There's something to that, for sure. I suspect there are also some authors who know better, but just write to genre tropes (of either continent's) because it's what they think their readers expect. Women can easily be just another reward token for the MC who gets everything handed to them.

Heh, it's also something I hated when reading isekai LNs and WNs. So, when I wrote my own isekai, I tried to subvert such trope. I wrote my FMCs with their own motivations and goals that aligned with the MMC (or in some cases, the MMC is the one who got convinced in supporting the FMC's goals), and also gave them the ability to kick ass...as supposed to the usual isekai FMC that serves only as the 'rah rah girl' of the MMC.

Thanks! Same here; I'm a relative newcomer to non-western media. I've been watching really mainstream anime for a long time, but really only got into it more seriously in the past 7 or so years (and light novels a good bit more recently than that), so I don't have a lot of context, where with the western SF/Fantasy I've been reading for as long as I can remember and trying to write it (usually in small chunks that go nowhere) since middle school.

Well, I've been an anime/manga fan since I was in fifth grade (1999-2000), and I discovered my ability to draw anime-style during those years too. My mother brought me up reading books that are informational in nature (encyclopedias, almanacs, etc.). I did read western works (fell in love with Tolkien's Legendarium and C.S. Lewis' Narnia), but what really got me into writing is when I realized that doing manga/graphic novels without an assistant is difficult than just writing novels.

My first novel is a school low fantasy 'DECK', but I held off writing it for a decade since it got so complicated I myself ended up confused. So, I started fresh with The Human Saint is Bored, which is my isekai novel (and current project). DECK was first written in 2008, and I wasted my life doing something else until May 2019, when I wrote the first volume of the Saint Series. Honestly, I was one of the 'Zero no Tsukaima' authors--inspired by the settings of that novel, and one of those who are getting disappointed with how current isekai sub-genre is developing into (power fantasy filled with sex, forced sex, and even more unrealistic sex--like how the FMC is saved, and she allows the MMC to get under her skirt after half the chapter).

I'm also reminded of the whole Isekai "alignment charts" that people have done, some of which have done an interesting job of deconstructing elements of it.

The other amusing one is using Isekai as a framing story for what could just be a regular overpowered fantasy story. It's possible that the original source material has more, but I've seen a lot of anime where after the first episode there's nothing calling back to the MC's origins and it could be any other kid who was a magical/combat/whatever prodigy (8th Son are you kidding me? is the first that comes to mind)

This is the sickness of a lot of isekai 'school', 'farming' and 'adventurer' fantasies. Like, literally, I can skip a lot of early chapters and still follow what happens in the middle parts, and also expect the ending without even reading the entire work.

 

[gaylolis]

i think the hallmark of fantasy is the things you see when you get intensely stoned.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

i think the hallmark of fantasy is the things you see when you get intensely stoned.

Or what the politicians say when they run in the elections.