Why Do Cultivation Protagonists Suck?

[T.K._Paradox]

Look I want to like cultivation, I really do. It is an interesting magic system when done correctly, but even then, the protagonist is garbage. A person is often a horrible person that makes me feel so disconnected that the antagonist needs to straight-up Grimderp levels of edginess to root for the protagonist(s).

The protagonist is often an arrogant, degenerate, entitled, power-drunk, sociopath that would probably eat a child alive to ascend to the next realm; but that is not my main problem with this genre, my problem is often the author tries to justify the character's actions. If the character is a baby-eating, omnicidal monster, then own up to it! Nothing is wrong with admitting your character is a monster, just don't try to frame them as the savior for *insert clan/sect here* the protagonist would more than likely sacrifice them all just rise a bit higher in power.

There is also the whole propaganda thing that is sometimes mixed in, but that is a whole other can of worms.

 

[Erivva]

To be sincere i've lost hope in Chinese cultivation stories, after reading over 50 books of Wuxia and Xianxia, i'm tired of that bullshit protagonist who as soon as they get the power they leave their family.

But there are a few good ones that don't follow a trope and it's pretty cool. You'll find a lot of Royal Road.
https://www.scribblehub.com/series/313219/the-rising-of-a-diamond/

 

[Ilikewaterkusa]

Look I want to like cultivation, I really do. It is an interesting magic system when done correctly, but even then, the protagonist is garbage. A person is often a horrible person that makes me feel so disconnected that the antagonist needs to straight-up Grimderp levels of edginess to root for the protagonist(s).

The protagonist is often an arrogant, degenerate, entitled, power-drunk, sociopath that would probably eat a child alive to ascend to the next realm; but that is not my main problem with this genre, my problem is often the author tries to justify the character's actions. If the character is a baby-eating, omnicidal monster, then own up to it! Nothing is wrong with admitting your character is a monster, just don't try to frame them as the savior for *insert clan/sect here* the protagonist would more than likely sacrifice them all just rise a bit higher in power.

There is also the whole propaganda thing that is sometimes mixed in, but that is a whole other can of worms.

They have a different frame of morality, so it’s probably acceptable do such in their view.

 

[T.K._Paradox]

They have a different frame of morality, so it’s probably acceptable do such in their view.

The most ass-backward morality ever.

 

[CupcakeNinja]

Look I want to like cultivation, I really do. It is an interesting magic system when done correctly, but even then, the protagonist is garbage. A person is often a horrible person that makes me feel so disconnected that the antagonist needs to straight-up Grimderp levels of edginess to root for the protagonist(s).

The protagonist is often an arrogant, degenerate, entitled, power-drunk, sociopath that would probably eat a child alive to ascend to the next realm; but that is not my main problem with this genre, my problem is often the author tries to justify the character's actions. If the character is a baby-eating, omnicidal monster, then own up to it! Nothing is wrong with admitting your character is a monster, just don't try to frame them as the savior for *insert clan/sect here* the protagonist would more than likely sacrifice them all just rise a bit higher in power.

There is also the whole propaganda thing that is sometimes mixed in, but that is a whole other can of worms.

the problem is exactly that. They are hypocritical, self-righteous asshats who come up with every excuse why genocide is justified

Now see, the only two ways this works is if they own up to it, like you said...or if its a comedy story

But otherwise? If its a serious story? Then the MC comes off as all those things. In comedy, you can exaggerate. In comedy, you can turn off your brain and watch as a guy murders a dude cuz the man took the last donut from a box. Because those things arent supposed to be taken seriously anyway, you enter knowing that and so you don't get too bogged down by morals and common sense.

Theres a reason some of the best cultivation stories are comedy-oriented, my man.

Cuz when its not, no matter what reasons you use...you cant just justify being a straight dick and killing off every last member of a clan just cuz a few attacked you, or because you say leaving one alive will mean future trouble. Like come on, those are crappy excuses. Be a man and accept the consequences of your actions. Kill when needed. Dont off an entire family, many of whom never even looked your way before then

 

[Maldon]

yeah, there's some good and interesting ones here or there, but those kinda stories seem to be a dime a dozen

 

[Degoneth]

I believe the main reason is the authors' lack of understanding on the strength based societies.
Same thing can be said for commoner protagonists vs nobles type novels too.
Strength based societies are very very VERY communal. So that law does not protect you, you protect each other.
Oh, the disciple of the other sect or noble of the neighbouring lands wants to humiliate the weak? Stop there buddy only WE can bully OUR weaklings/peasants. You bullying our weaklings means you are humiliating us.
And inner turmoil? The inner disciples wants to teach outer disciples? Why?
Oh because the idiot has not showed the proper respect? Worry not young master. We teach our own brother. You just go and teach the disciples of other sects.
But wait! You just want to show off without reason?
Do you know that we outer disciples have 10 time more numbers than you inner disciples? What? Numbers does not matter in front of absolute strength? You young masters teach the unruly ones amongst yourselves if you don't want to clean your own underwear. If not, you are going to drink the mead we piss in it from now on.
Summary;
Strength based societies are communal to a fault. You can't teach anyone if you are in fault and even your cause is righteous you still can't teach anyone because doing so means pissing off people in power.
Heck. You can't even fight in front of someone else's house or shop because doing so means you are disrespectful to them and ruining their business/neighbourhood.
What? There is discord? Just tip the people in power. They would destroy everyone that is harmful towards the society. Because in a strength based society the enemy is the foreign one. It doesn't matter who they are. If they are not one of yours they are enemy and if they are one of yours no one can humiliate/bully them.

 

[SuperHeiyan]

Look I want to like cultivation, I really do. It is an interesting magic system when done correctly, but even then, the protagonist is garbage. A person is often a horrible person that makes me feel so disconnected that the antagonist needs to straight-up Grimderp levels of edginess to root for the protagonist(s).

The protagonist is often an arrogant, degenerate, entitled, power-drunk, sociopath that would probably eat a child alive to ascend to the next realm; but that is not my main problem with this genre, my problem is often the author tries to justify the character's actions. If the character is a baby-eating, omnicidal monster, then own up to it! Nothing is wrong with admitting your character is a monster, just don't try to frame them as the savior for *insert clan/sect here* the protagonist would more than likely sacrifice them all just rise a bit higher in power.

There is also the whole propaganda thing that is sometimes mixed in, but that is a whole other can of worms.

This is something many people have problem with, most xianxia is a trash-tier slapstick action with powerclimb. Because people still read them and it's easier to write such stuff than "philosophically-religious fantasy" it is supposed to be.
And while I read such stuff I am Indeed also don't like when main character turns up being not less scum than his opponents. With authors trying to hypocritically show him as a good guy. But this is not strictly Xianxia problem, same happens in japanese and korean novels pretty often, it's just like xianxia setting is naturally predisposed to characters like this.

I can only advise to read wuxia instead, for similar attributes it have more down-to earth perspective and tend to have protagonists with more integrity.

 

[TotallyHuman]

Oh, I agree with you! When I write evil, or at least dubious moral-wise, protagonist (which is basically always), I try to own up to it. I don't like it when the authors try to push their idea of good or right in the story only for it to fall apart into: only the protagonist is good and right regardless of anything. I much more prefer it when nobody is right, or if everybody is right, but their metrics are different.

 

[MisterSyafiq]

Look I want to like cultivation, I really do. It is an interesting magic system when done correctly, but even then, the protagonist is garbage. A person is often a horrible person that makes me feel so disconnected that the antagonist needs to straight-up Grimderp levels of edginess to root for the protagonist(s).

The protagonist is often an arrogant, degenerate, entitled, power-drunk, sociopath that would probably eat a child alive to ascend to the next realm; but that is not my main problem with this genre, my problem is often the author tries to justify the character's actions. If the character is a baby-eating, omnicidal monster, then own up to it! Nothing is wrong with admitting your character is a monster, just don't try to frame them as the savior for *insert clan/sect here* the protagonist would more than likely sacrifice them all just rise a bit higher in power.

There is also the whole propaganda thing that is sometimes mixed in, but that is a whole other can of worms.

The main reason i stopped reading those kind of novel....

 

[Zirrboy]

Look I want to like cultivation, I really do. It is an interesting magic system when done correctly, but even then, the protagonist is garbage. A person is often a horrible person that makes me feel so disconnected that the antagonist needs to straight-up Grimderp levels of edginess to root for the protagonist(s).

The protagonist is often an arrogant, degenerate, entitled, power-drunk, sociopath that would probably eat a child alive to ascend to the next realm; but that is not my main problem with this genre, my problem is often the author tries to justify the character's actions. If the character is a baby-eating, omnicidal monster, then own up to it! Nothing is wrong with admitting your character is a monster, just don't try to frame them as the savior for *insert clan/sect here* the protagonist would more than likely sacrifice them all just rise a bit higher in power.

There is also the whole propaganda thing that is sometimes mixed in, but that is a whole other can of worms.

The strange thing is that at the time I binged them, I liked them for doing less of that than most other stories I know.

Of course, it was obvious you were supposed to like the guy, but I recall little being specifically added for the sake of pushing that. Then again, long time ago, I might misremember.

I believe the main reason is the authors' lack of understanding on the strength based societies.
Same thing can be said for commoner protagonists vs nobles type novels too.
Strength based societies are very very VERY communal. So that law does not protect you, you protect each other.
Oh, the disciple of the other sect or noble of the neighbouring lands wants to humiliate the weak? Stop there buddy only WE can bully OUR weaklings/peasants. You bullying our weaklings means you are humiliating us.
And inner turmoil? The inner disciples wants to teach outer disciples? Why?
Oh because the idiot has not showed the proper respect? Worry not young master. We teach our own brother. You just go and teach the disciples of other sects.
But wait! You just want to show off without reason?
Do you know that we outer disciples have 10 time more numbers than you inner disciples? What? Numbers does not matter in front of absolute strength? You young masters teach the unruly ones amongst yourselves if you don't want to clean your own underwear. If not, you are going to drink the mead we piss in it from now on.
Summary;
Strength based societies are communal to a fault. You can't teach anyone if you are in fault and even your cause is righteous you still can't teach anyone because doing so means pissing off people in power.
Heck. You can't even fight in front of someone else's house or shop because doing so means you are disrespectful to them and ruining their business/neighbourhood.
What? There is discord? Just tip the people in power. They would destroy everyone that is harmful towards the society. Because in a strength based society the enemy is the foreign one. It doesn't matter if who they are. If they are not one of yours they are enemy and if they are one of yours no one can humiliate/bully them.

Spoiler: Wall of text

The thing is: the world technically is like that, most of the time. What you are describing sounds more or less like what "face" is in those novels.

MC beats up an arrogant prick? Their sect friends show up and fight to restore their factions honor. Once the MC is done with them, the core disciple they were the lackeys of goes after him instead. and so on.

If you want to give the author the benefit of the doubt, the MC always gets in trouble because they don't accept others' claims of status.
If not, the MC is a plot bent trouble magnet, but even then that's a singular existence.

The thing about teaching your own is that you only do it if you believe the other to be a threat.
And despite being all about personal advancement and strength, those worlds are fairly stagnant with few making it much further than what their parents or grandparents achieved, since the resources you need will get sparse, while you're a defenseless peasant in a higher region.
Since membership in a sect brings vast benefits, not being in one usually means you're too weak to make it.
So people who are strong despite not looking the part should be pretty rare in those worlds, since even inside your own faction, power decides your status.

So with the MC being an (intentionally) counter-intuitive existence, I don't believe it's completely unreasonable for others not to step in.

I agree with you as far as sects the MC joins go, though. Even taking into account the MCs head through the wall mentality, the sects are vastly more ridden with infighting and disunity than the ones that appear as foes.

 

[Twin]

I guess 'cultivation protagonist that suck' has a good enough reader base to make them keep coming up one after the other.

 

[maum.2412]

Cause World System in that type of story make inhabitant like that..
Try unique worldbuilding cultivation, example:

FeralHeart

Disclaimer: This story is intended for adult audiences. You should not read this if you are under the age of eighteen. “I was born with an extremely prestigious but combat-weak logistics class. As the son of the clan head and the next heir, that just wasn’t enough of an...

www.scribblehub.com

Possessing Nothing - Novel Updates

www.novelupdates.com

,Etc

 

[TheNumberLocksmith]

To be sincere i've lost hope in Chinese cultivation stories, after reading over 50 books of Wuxia and Xianxia, i'm tired of that bullshit protagonist who as soon as they get the power they leave their family.

But there are a few good ones that don't follow a trope and it's pretty cool. You'll find a lot of Royal Road.
https://www.scribblehub.com/series/313219/the-rising-of-a-diamond/

Seeing you read so many Wuxia novels, can you recommend me some without supernatural elements? I'm writing two Wuxia series currently and they might help me. Thanks!

 

[Degoneth]

The strange thing is that at the time I binged them, I liked them for doing less of that than most other stories I know.

Of course, it was obvious you were supposed to like the guy, but I recall little being specifically added for the sake of pushing that. Then again, long time ago, I might misremember.

Spoiler: Wall of text

The thing is: the world technically is like that, most of the time. What you are describing sounds more or less like what "face" is in those novels.

MC beats up an arrogant prick? Their sect friends show up and fight to restore their factions honor. Once the MC is done with them, the core disciple they were the lackeys of goes after him instead. and so on.

If you want to give the author the benefit of the doubt, the MC always gets in trouble because they don't accept others' claims of status.
If not, the MC is a plot bent trouble magnet, but even then that's a singular existence.

The thing about teaching your own is that you only do it if you believe the other to be a threat.
And despite being all about personal advancement and strength, those worlds are fairly stagnant with few making it much further than what their parents or grandparents achieved, since the resources you need will get sparse, while you're a defenseless peasant in a higher region.
Since membership in a sect brings vast benefits, not being in one usually means you're too weak to make it.
So people who are strong despite not looking the part should be pretty rare in those worlds, since even inside your own faction, power decides your status.

So with the MC being an (intentionally) counter-intuitive existence, I don't believe it's completely unreasonable for others not to step in.

I agree with you as far as sects the MC joins go, though. Even taking into account the MCs head through the wall mentality, the sects are vastly more ridden with infighting and disunity than the ones that appear as foes.

You miss a point though. In a strength based society everyone else is enemy. It is not a 1vs1 battle between sects. If you fight against another sect, others will fish in muddy waters. So even if you are the son of the current clan leader. You can't just kill disciples of other sects for face.
Remember these sect are old. They already have many enemies and allies. So anyone who adds more enemies without a reason or humiliates allies would be put down.
So, in a strength based society, even fights between 3 year olds can escalate blood feuds easily. That's what there are usually code of honors that shows what you can do or can't. Usually you can't do anything to anyone unless your leaders considers them as enemies.
They would kick their own young lord's *SS or kill him even instead of adding more enemies or losing a long lasting ally. So that usually the leaders are polygamous and have many children, one son is often not important enough to gain an enemy or lose an ally. Especially if he is an unruly one.

 

[K5Rakitan]

Maybe some of the authors and readers are sociopaths and identify with that kind of character on a deep level. Perhaps indulging in fantasy stories prevents them from doing that shit in real life.

 

[araragi]

It is probably because there world is shown as cut-throat competition where strong devours the weak. Literally.

Then there is always the fight for resources as those are what let people cultivate faster.

Furthermore, most of the MCs get something very special in the early stages of the story. This piece is important as the MC would be just another noble wannabe if he didn't have that. They show numerous people cultivating for centuries. So, if our MC didn't have that special item, he wouldn't progress that fast. However, this becomes a vital weakness for the MC as well. The MC needs to protect his secret from everyone which obviously isolates him from others.

As for why the authors justify it. Well everyone's a d*ck in their story so if even the MC is one, why would the readers rally up for the MC?

 

[Jemini]

I'm thinking it's a matter of them mimicking what they see. These stories, the ones that have this issue, are all out of China. China has the CCP going all super-oppressive on the people, and literally acting like Xianxia protagonists. It's no wonder they got on the track of portraying characters like this. And, once someone starts on that train and it resonates with people, more will start writing the same.

It's just like how Japan kept writing stories in which sudden catastrophic massively destructive events caused a massive loss of innocent life. It was all an expression of their trauma from WWII.

Now, if you want to get the Cultivation power system without the ass of a protagonist, all you've gotta do is read an English-written Cultivation World novel. I guess you could sort of categorize them as Wuxia in the same sense that you would still call a western-written Isekai by the same name it's called in Japan, but I will just call it a Cultivation World in my case.

I have seen western-written cultivation novels still get pretty dark. I mean, I'm sorta writing one myself, and it's slated to go down a very dark path. What attrocities protagonists perform though, I completely own it and never try to justify it. It's always narratively handled as a fall in their character. Also, with all the darkness I write into my works, it is not just there to be edgy. All of it is meant to parallel and be reminiscent of real world attitudes. I have one negative character-arc meant to reference how strong and dark ideologies can corrupt you, especially when you are fitting in with the mob. I also have a positive character-arc story meant to start off a character off in hell, with hell's cultural practices literally paralleling the attitudes of most Xianxia novels, and then have him resist the temptation to be dragged down that dark path as it's all about him ascending out of hell and back to the surface.

 

[orangepeel]

an overused mechanic (like cultivation) will allways feel like garbage writing until someone puts a new spin on it, that is because most cultivation novels are focused on length, not being word for word copied (only paraphrased), and an outlet for the authors frustrations. Any cultivation novel to be good will require writing effort. It seems that every novel that starts out good gets droped quickly as it is buried under a thousand mass produced pieces of literay junk.

 

[Redemit]

Well have you ever taken a look at Chinese culture and society? Beyond the pretty surface of it's art food and other really general things it's a pretty messed up place