Checks & Balances (magic systems)

[CarburetorThompson]

A few days ago I made a post about guns & magic.

Was curious more broadly speaking what people thought about balancing magic in general. How powerful should it be? How easy to use? & such

I’ve read a ton of stories where magic is so convenient and easily accessible that it makes the setting feel unrealistic because it has no general impact on the setting or the lives of people. I’ve heard Brandon Sanderson has a lot of unique things to balance magic systems in his books, but I’ve never read his books because I’m not a dweeb

 

[TheEldritchGod]

It should be balanced.
It should be as powerful as the plot demands.
It should be as easy or hard to use as dictated by the setting.

 

[TsumiHokiro]

Personally, this chick is all for balance. Or rather, for "realism". If you're going to be making "magic," it should be a well thought system that has logical reasoning, the same as the normal physical world has. Consider it an extension of "physics," just "magic physics" if you will.
Is it a part of your "System" that governs your LitRPG? Is it a part of the system that the Gods have imposed a limit on? So long there is a logic behind it, you might not have any true "power" limitations at all because you already have a source of power that would explain where you derive power from.
And this is key, where do you derive power from:

• That Abstract God that has created the universe;
• Ether, the all-pervading energy, which can can be known as many-a-name;
• The energy coming from a different place, which is used to fuel the imbalances in this Universe.

So long you have an explanation for the system, and you keep consistency, who cares if it's Newtonian, Post-Einstein or Completely Made-up Physics?

 

[Paul_Tromba]

I've heard it said that the best way to balance magic systems is to create a graph with the X axis being the power of the magic and the Y axis being how difficult it is to use. Dot the magics on the graph where the X axis is always equal to the Y axis to make the Difficulty = Power. However, this graph can be altered based on how common you want the magic to be. The more common powerful magic is, the less difficult it needs to be (this can usually lead to a plateau of powerful magic, making anti-magic busted). The less common powerful magic is, the more difficult it will be to use it (this is usually used in power fantasy stories where the MC has powerful abilities). Though it is entirely based on where the magic comes from that dictates how it can be used. Some magics are powered by items that are easy to use but have some drawbacks while others are natural abilities that need to be mastered.

 

[SailusGebel]

Depends on a story and setting. Personally, I'm not a nerd or a geek, so when it comes to magic, on average, I like it when there are no limits whatsoever. That's why it's magic. If I want rules, limitations, power balancing, and other boring stuff, I will look for sci-fi. But I like balanced magic as well. Especially when it allows for interesting settings, like magic + guns, or space magic, and so on. So, I don't have an answer how powerful, or easy to use magic should be, since it depends on what you want to write, and for whom you want to write.

 

[LilRora]

This question obviously has no simple answer, but I'd boil it down to three things that will help answer in a fairly reliable manner depending on the setting.

First thing, the source of magic. Even if it's not revealed in the story, it helps if you have an idea where magic comes from, because that will dictate many of its limitations. The classic fantasy thing that mana infuses the world - even that is, in a way, an answer to the question; although it's not enough to narrow down much, it's enough to draw some bounds. If you give a more detailed answer, for example that magic is a force responsible for the creation and balance of the world, you'll automatically indirectly say its theoretical limits are virtually nonexistent.

This can go on for a while as we come up with better and more detailed answers, but it won't get us anywhere by itself unless we get ridiculously detailed. That's where two more questions come in.

Second, what kind of being can magic make? It basically asks, what can the most powerful being within the bounds of the system be. It's pretty related to the previous question and often affected by it, but it already gets us closer. If the answer is superhuman, well, then it's just superhuman and you've not much room for choice in the strength of magic. It can be a god-like being, it can be a god (an important distinction there, one that becomes especially important if your magic comes from a god), it can be a transcendental whatever that would mean in your story, there's a lot more room for choice than it seems at first. It can even be a term existing for the sole purpose of showing the heights magic can reach.

Third, how hard it is to reach that level? In other words, how many people on that and similar level do you want to have in your story. If you want none, if you want the pinnacle of magic to be some distant dream of the foolish mortals, it means magic's got to be hard, or privileged. If you want pinnacle of magic to be something known that people are trying to go past, it means the magic's easier.

I think, if you answer there three questions, you can get a really good idea where magic stands in your story, and it'll help with consistency. Unless someone decides that breaking the rules they set themselves is a good idea, they'll be forced to write within (hopefully) believable and internally logical bounds and find good ideas there. And as long as that's there - internal logic and consistency - then I can accept virtually any magic system.

Edit: Also, if answering those broadly doesn't help, it can be a good idea to narrow down only to a place or something. For example, even if your magic is theoretically omnipotent, you can say that there's not enough magic on Earth/somewhere to reach a higher than certain level.

 

[Corty]

I like it when there are no limits whatsoever.

I want to hug you. Exactly.

 

[Rhaps]

Normally it should be balanced and structure nicely.

But as a dice addict, I don't care if something is way too overpowered, I can just balance it out with character later. As long as something is fun, balancing can go out of the room

 

[Tyranomaster]

It fully depends on the kind of story you intend to write, however, my personal feelings on this are that without developing an internally consistent logic by which the magic works, you'll inevitably power spiral your magic system to the point where nothing matters.

Easy or Hard doesn't actually matter for this, that just sets the tone of the story. The maximum power level doesn't actually matter that much either. What matters is that every character, including the main character, obeys the same laws of magic. If you want your main character to be OP still under these rules, there are plenty of ways to do it. It's even fine if the MC breaks what is considered the "conventional understanding" of how magic works. However, you as an author should never violate your own laws of magic. Once you figure out how you want the system to work, never violate it.

 

[CarburetorThompson]

So far I’ve seen a lot of stuff about balance, mostly balancing from within the system, but not many checks form outside it.

What I eventually decided after making the guns post a few days ago was to have a material that is opposed to magic, incompatible with it, and can dispel it. I picked salt for the material, but it could really be anything. Been years since I read it but I think One Piece had sea stone that did something similar.

I decided to keep guns, but you can’t have bullets made of rock salt since they’d fracture into a dust after firing. So for killing wizards you use arrow tips and swords made out of cast salt. But because salt is brittle and doesn’t hold an edge very well, those weapons are only useful for killing wizard's. Also wizards have to have zero salt diets because they’re nerds.

 

[Generic.Archdemon]

chick is all for balance

Chicks and balances.

Nice.

 

[Voidiris]

The magic system should fit into the world or/and story you create. That's all a good magic system needs to do, a great magic system would enhance the world or/and story. I'm not talking about the quality of a magic system but it's utility. There is no perfect magic system that could be used in every single story. But still you should never forget the impact of such a system on the world.

 

[Plantorsomething]

A few days ago I made a post about guns & magic.

Was curious more broadly speaking what people thought about balancing magic in general. How powerful should it be? How easy to use? & such

I’ve read a ton of stories where magic is so convenient and easily accessible that it makes the setting feel unrealistic because it has no general impact on the setting or the lives of people. I’ve heard Brandon Sanderson has a lot of unique things to balance magic systems in his books, but I’ve never read his books because I’m not a dweeb

For guns and magic, I would want to focus specifically on the premise, all else would be filler or complimentary.
I would say magic can only be stored in specially treated wood or metal or bone, etc, so at first they had had magic weapons and tools and such, but then they moved on to guns that can store a variety of magic in the bullets on top of the gun’s special properties. People have no inherent magic.
Also if you want a super specific how-to I reccomend this

 

[HungrySheep]

The system should serve the plot instead of the other way around.

 

[RiaCorvidiva]

The system should serve the plot instead of the other way around.

This, essentially. Balance, in the sense it's often thought of, is relevant for games or other interactions where it is necessary to ensure that all parties have a fair chance of winning (or in PvE games, where the players have a fair chance of winning without the game being either too easy or too difficult).

With written novels and such, balance isn't needed. It's fine to have character(s) be wildly overpowered. What you need is appropriate amounts of tension, and for the tools available to the characters to be sufficient to solve the challenges they face (which, might result in 'victory' either). If you have an overpowered character that can easily dispatch all opponents in the realm of combat, then it just means you need the tension to come from somewhere other than 'will they defeat the big bad'? Perhaps it's 'can they remain true to their morals' or 'can they avoid going mad with power' or 'can they continue to feel attached to society' or similar.

 

[MatchaChocolate69]

When facing enemies that include a mage, what do you do? The first priority is to eliminate ASAP the mage. The reason for this strategy stems from the immense power that magic wields in many fantasy settings. Magic, by its nature, can turn the tide of battle with a single spell, making mages both formidable adversaries and valuable assets.
To balance this power, various mechanisms can be employed.
These include the concept of mana, which acts as a finite resource that mages must manage. Depleting mana limits the mage's ability to cast spells continuously, introducing a strategic element to magic use. Additionally, cooldown periods prevent the immediate recasting of powerful spells, forcing mages to choose their spells wisely and at the right moment.
Another balancing factor is the casting time. More powerful spells often require longer casting times, making mages vulnerable during this period. This aspect adds a layer of risk versus reward to spellcasting, where a mage must weigh the benefits of a powerful spell against the dangers of being defenseless while casting it.
The requirement of verbal chants or physical gestures for spellcasting introduces another layer of complexity. These requirements can make mages vulnerable to being silenced or restrained, adding a strategic element to combat both for and against mages.
The need for concentration or to remain stationary while casting can be a significant vulnerability. It makes mages susceptible to disruption, requiring them to rely on their allies for protection or to choose their casting location judiciously.
The presence of technology can further balance the power of magic. For instance, advanced weaponry or defensive tech can reduce the dominance of magic, allowing for more diverse combat scenarios and strategies.
In a classic medieval fantasy context, in a world where magic plays a pivotal role, it's conceivable that mages would have a significant influence on politics and warfare. Their abilities could dictate the strategies employed in conflicts, and their presence or absence on the battlefield could be a deciding factor in the outcome of a war. Therefore, understanding and countering magic would be essential in such a world, making the role of mages in both offense and defense critically important. For these reasons, IMHO, magic absolutely needs to be balanced in a story.

EDIT:

Another way to balance magic, as others have already mentioned, is through the character who uses the magic. Perhaps they are old and tired, out of shape, or a bookworm not suited for actual combat. Lack of experience on the battlefield can be a crucial factor.

 

[someawkwardflame]

I love brandon sanderson - but I also think he has harmed many, many authors because since his books have become prevalent the idea of magic being hard science systems with the checks and balances has become so incredibly prevalent. And it's great, sometimes. And it's also meant so many people start thinking about their system and plan their entire system instead of thinking about their plot - and then force the plot to fit into the system, which is the opposite of what he does (his plot is informed by the system.)

I think soft magic is fine. It just works because it does. There are certain things it doesn't work on. Why? It just doesn't - the key is consistency. If you can suddenly do a thing you couldn't 2 chapters earlier, there has to be a reason - now the reason doesn't need to be a hard science thing, but it has to be believable within the setting of the world.

It is important that a magic system has some limitation - wether it's other opposing magicians, gods, or the system itself to the point were it can't just take over and auto-do everything. But they don't necessarily need to be defined by strict rules and things that are explained, it just depends on the story. The key thing is that it fits the story.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

I focus much on plot instead of the settings supporting the plot, like magic systems. I do have notes created for it to serve as a reference (to maintain consistency), but I just write on 'surface-level' and not into the magic system too deep so as not to complicate my storytelling much.

 

[Aader]

in my opinion, magic should have a limit, that limiting factor being imagination, mana levels, and physics

 

[Cipiteca396]

Real life isn't balanced; neither should fiction be.

If readers want to rage against the unfairness of it, then that's an opportunity. Let the characters rage right alongside them.