Figured I'd share a bit more again from some stuff I think can help developing writers. I'm sure we've all encountered The Monomyth aka The Hero's Journey some time or another, so I made one video breaking down some issues with Joseph Campbell's theory and why it shouldn't be treated as the end all, be all.
As for my newest one, I delve into one of the options that exist beyond The Hero's Journey: The Outlaw's Journey. I've not seen anyone else discussing this one, despite how popular it is, so I wanted to get this video made and spread it to other writers. Hopefully, these can help with your journeys as writers!
This pretty reinforces my idea of just using the supposed 'writing rules' as guide and not the 'law' per se. Following those religiously would make an author lose 'creativity' and would stuck them to a loop of desperation and self-doubt, accomplishing nothing.
This pretty reinforces my idea of just using the supposed 'writing rules' as guide and not the 'law' per se. Following those religiously would make an author lose 'creativity' and would stuck them to a loop of desperation and self-doubt, accomplishing nothing.
And yeah, there aren't any actual rules. Anxious, inexperienced writers obey rules.
That said, craft and principles help better shape one's vision so it can be communicated to an audience. Rebellious, unschooled writers break rules and just blindly fumble through things.
True artistry comes from mastering the form. We shouldn't model our works after well-made stories so much as make our stories well within the principles that shape our works. This is why I emphasize tools, not rules. It's just a matter of picking the right tools to get the job done.
Figured I'd share a bit more again from some stuff I think can help developing writers. I'm sure we've all encountered The Monomyth aka The Hero's Journey some time or another, so I made one video breaking down some issues with Joseph Campbell's theory and why it shouldn't be treated as the end all, be all.
As for my newest one, I delve into one of the options that exist beyond The Hero's Journey: The Outlaw's Journey. I've not seen anyone else discussing this one, despite how popular it is, so I wanted to get this video made and spread it to other writers. Hopefully, these can help with your journeys as writers!
Look it's wonderful you have an opinion on the matter, but you have a youtube commentator avatar so I'm going to ignore everything you say because I don't like those things.
Look it's wonderful you have an opinion on the matter, but you have a youtube commentator avatar so I'm going to ignore everything you say because I don't like those things.
Fair enough, everybody has their tastes and I'm not forcing anybody to do anything. I simply compile and synthesize information that isn't commonplace for those who are interested in growing.
To be honest, I didn't even know about "The Hero's Journey" until way after I started writing, so I have no idea if I'm following the "rules". I'm just writing what I like and trying the best I can.
I don't know. I don't think it is good to speculate on people's motives. People can use the framework or not. If they have a certain motive or not that shouldn't be looked at unless they said it themselves.
Though what I do agree with is that people want to see patterns. There is the old meme that says half of the final fantasy games are "basically star wars." Then star wars is the hero's journey...and all that. People can rationalize anything.
Following other structures works good do. Nothing silences nay-Sayers like success after all.
To be honest, I didn't even know about "The Hero's Journey" until way after I started writing, so I have no idea if I'm following the "rules". I'm just writing what I like and trying the best I can.
I do wonder how soon people learn about it since I often see it come up when people start learning it. I've known about it for so long that I genuinely don't remember when I didn't know it at this point.
Regardless, if just writing works for you, I say roll with it. I've found that there are different seasons to one's life as a creator and what's relevant in one season might be too much or inefficient in another. It's a journey for a reason. Concern yourself with the craft when you either feel like just writing what you like isn't sufficient for whatever personal goal you have as a writer or when you just wish to learn more for the sake of learning. Either way, focus on whatever you find most fulfilling as a creator. Being authentic to your desires as a creative is what matters most.
I don't know. I don't think it is good to speculate on people's motives. People can use the framework or not. If they have a certain motive or not that shouldn't be looked at unless they said it themselves.
Though what I do agree with is that people want to see patterns. There is the old meme that says half of the final fantasy games are "basically star wars." Then star wars is the hero's journey...and all that. People can rationalize anything.
Following other structures works good do. Nothing silences nay-Sayers like success after all.
Ah, you mean the final part of The Hero's Myth part? That's actually why I said it might contribute (as opposed to does) and tried to focus more on documenting information that provides supporting evidence. I'd rather people reach their own conclusions as opposed to me just saying it 100% does do this socially, damn Campbell, burn it all to the ground, etc. I hate that cancel culture bullshit. Still, I likewise don't wish to turn a blind eye to a trend I notice, which is why I rather just present a case and let others decide for themselves.
Though the first two points I 100% stand by. Campbell's theory is flawed (it was popularized by Star Wars & The Writer's Journey books), he isn't taken seriously by anybody in the field with a depth of knowledge into things, and there are other options out there to make sense of stuff.
Still, despite the flaws, it CAN prove useful in many ways. I'm less against using the monomyth or lessons from it and more against the idea that it is ideal and that anything that doesn't fit it is wrong. I've run into that a lot throughout the years. It's bothered me since I'm passionate about storytelling and dislike the damage I've seen that narrative cause.
I thought it was a lovely video. It seemed a little obvious to me, but I understand how people who arent knee deep in a subject might just latch onto the popular thought and not know the nuances like "there are in fact many different frameworks for different genres and stories." I thought bringing up comparison points for other stories was very good too.
I ultimately understand the nuance you presented--that the general ideas within the hero's journey make a good framework, but the problem is the people who hype it up as the only option.
Yeah, again, the point of the video seemed obvious to me. Especially since most websites that describe the Hero's Journey often point out the alternatives, or point to Dan Harmon's story circle, which is probably the most practical, efficient version of the hero's journey. It's unfortunate that it has to be said that the various frameworks are guides, not absolutes.
Overall, I hope that any beginners that see this video are helped, and don't feel boxed into the hero's journey.
On a personal note, I usually tell people who ask about adventure fantasy to use the hero's journey as a guide, since it offers a beginning, middle, and end, and offers the basics of conflict resolution. It's just the simplest one to tell people about, along with the 3 act structure.
The overall idea I tell them is that journey acts as a framework to get ideas organized, after which they can modify the execution as according to the story.
i think it's been a while since i read something that actually had any resemblance to hero journey.
and as someone who played more games than reading stories of that trope, for me it goes like this:
start journey -> do side quests -> ignore main quest -> have fun -> continue main quest since bored -> the final boss dies anticlimatically -> new game plus -> make your character a cute anime girl via mods -> turn it into a hentai game -> forgot what the original game was like
it's things like this that makes me unable to distinguish between honey select and skyrim sometimes.
you can even do it with fallout and probably gmod as well. as long it's easily moddable everything can become a hgame.
I thought it was a lovely video. It seemed a little obvious to me, but I understand how people who arent knee deep in a subject might just latch onto the popular thought and not know the nuances like "there are in fact many different frameworks for different genres and stories." I thought bringing up comparison points for other stories was very good too.
I ultimately understand the nuance you presented--that the general ideas within the hero's journey make a good framework, but the problem is the people who hype it up as the only option.
Yeah, again, the point of the video seemed obvious to me. Especially since most websites that describe the Hero's Journey often point out the alternatives, or point to Dan Harmon's story circle, which is probably the most practical, efficient version of the hero's journey. It's unfortunate that it has to be said that the various frameworks are guides, not absolutes.
Overall, I hope that any beginners that see this video are helped, and don't feel boxed into the hero's journey.
On a personal note, I usually tell people who ask about adventure fantasy to use the hero's journey as a guide, since it offers a beginning, middle, and end, and offers the basics of conflict resolution. It's just the simplest one to tell people about, along with the 3 act structure.
The overall idea I tell them is that journey acts as a framework to get ideas organized, after which they can modify the execution as according to the story.
The Curse of Knowledge is something I've been worrying about over the last year or so. There's a lot I wonder if it's too obvious and not worth investing time in. I figured I should since I run into a lot of people who aren't as obsessive versed in things or are just poorly taught. Plus I figured some bits of it might provide new knowledge to someone, like how it's theorized that western and eastern storytelling evolved as it did because of the geographic roots.
Anyway, I'd actually love to see these examples that do teach alternates since I haven't run into most doing it and it drives me crazy. I often run into people in critical circles using it to tear down other works or just talk him up as brilliant, despite his MANY failings.
I just watched the first video, and I think that it's a good criticism on how the public overvalues the monomyth and the collateral damage it has on the creativity of the artistic world.
Every tool and approach have advantages and drawbacks. Just like you mentioned, it's a scheme that any beginner can try to follow to build a story. But, a story built from this method doesn't always match the story the author wants to express. For instance, there's a built-in internal temptation subplot that may not even be relevant to the author's story. I especially don't like how the story scheme starts with the ordinary world where the MC is actively trying to protect the status quo and refuse whatever call. Right away, the scheme forces you to start with a reactive / passive MC, with direct implication on their personality... What if you want to write a story about an unhinged MC who dreams big and is ready to go any length for their objective. Or, if a character stumbled on a lottery ticket, do you think they would be hesitant and want to maintain the status quo of their life? hell no. Right away, this scheme puts a surprisingly hard constraint on the type of character you have to deal with.
Thankfully, I felt that there are many manga that simply don't give a single fuck about the monomyth while being super engaging, which made me realize that it's not as perfect as a tool as pop culture sells it.
In your criticism, you mentioned it as a good tool for action stories. It's true that it rather match well for stories where conflict and resolution produces clear cut definite results, rather than stories about people, relationship or love with nuances and subtleties. I'd say Monomyth is good for a wider scope than merely action genre, but I understand that you meant there are genres that simply aren't compatible.
About the part of culture imperialism, you gave the hypothesis that individualism originates from ancient Greece survival philosophy of self-reliance and how it clashed with eastern thematic of harmony. To add more fuel on this subject, I saw an interesting video about how family structure impacted ideologies. To sum it up, western's nuclear family favors individualism and freedom a lot, while eastern's exogamous or endogamous families forces everyone to live together and push harmony as an ideal.
Anyway, it's true that the monomyth favors a western set of ideals, and missing on the underlying values of a story is very unfortunate for an author.
I ditched the monomyth to form my own simple scheme that revolves around a character's emotion. It's a fragmented recipe that doesn't force on any narrative order. There are two parts: Inducing initial emotion and Resolving emotion.
The idea is that the 3 simplest story elements that must clash to produce emotion: the character's desire, the character's fear, the plot's obstacle.
That means that my story will try to expose in any order: the promise of a desirable future, a difficult choice that expose the cost of pursuing that future, and the ordeal.
In a complex story, this clash will never produce the desired outcome right away. It will either not produce result, or reach a worse failure state. This clash can also be portrayed as background story: a man who was about to be a happy father (future), and worried about his wife (fear/failure state), lost his family in an accident (plot ordeal). If you leave out one of those three minimum element, the portrayal of emotion becomes unreliable.
Then, to transform the undesirable outcome into a happy ending, this is where the elements of the monomyth can be relevant.
Key concepts are introduced or foreshadowed in early stages of the story, like mentor, mastersword, allies, experience from defeated enemies, or special knowledge can be reused to solve the conflict with violence, diplomacy, or strategy. This can also be a flaw that was progressively revealed during previous encounters (which the MC ignored and decided to resolve in last moment for drama).
My scheme is summarized in the diagram below. Green is inducing initial emotion (it's only the cross at the center), pink is transforming it (every other bubbles but the cross). The tool is used by filling the bubbles and case with story elements.
This diagram was solely motivated to imitate the trash manga where cheat key is introduced right away, and characterization is left for later in a progressive manner.
Anyway, I'd actually love to see these examples that do teach alternates since I haven't run into most doing it and it drives me crazy. I often run into people in critical circles using it to tear down other works or just talk him up as brilliant, despite his MANY failings.
I have to wonder if you're way too far into the field or just not running in healthy circles.
Searching plot structures on google will almost always produce a varied list of options. If you read from these sites, it's impossible to come out with the idea that the hero's journey is your only option.
Here's what I mean by websites offering alternatives in their articles:
Reedsy's Hero's Journey write-up offers this in its closing:
Simply put, the Hero’s Journey structure is far more detailed and closely defined than other story structure theories. If you want a fairly specific framework for your work than a thee-act structure, the Hero’s Journey can be a great place to start.
Of course, rules are made to be broken. There’s plenty of room to play within the confines of the Hero’s Journey, despite it appearing fairly prescriptive at first glance. Do you want to experiment with an abbreviated “Resurrection” stage, as J.K. Rowling did in Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone? Are you more interested in exploring the journey of an anti-hero? It’s all possible.
These sites pop up on a simple search for story structure. If I was a newbie again, and read these websites, I wouldn't be radicalized on the Hero's Journey as the one true savior.
And, these sources aren't so oppressive about only using the Heros Journey. They're all pretty reasonable in their stances.
Pro Writing Aid's write-up includes these parts:
For writers, the purpose of the Hero’s Journey is to act as a template and guide. It’s not a rigid formula that your plot must follow beat by beat. Indeed, there are good reasons to deviate—not least of which is that this structure has become so ubiquitous.
If you’re writing your own adventure, you may be wondering: should I follow the Hero’s Journey structure?
The good news is, it’s totally up to you. Joseph Campbell conceived of the monomyth as a way to understand universal story structure, but there are many ways to outline a novel. Feel free to play around within its confines, adapt it across different media, and disrupt reader expectations. It’s like Morpheus says: “Some of these rules can be bent. Others can be broken.”
Think of the Hero’s Journey as a tool. If you’re not sure where your story should go next, it can help to refer back to the basics. From there, you’re free to choose your own adventure.
So, you see, this is why its "obvious" to me. Every starting guide is pretty kind with whether or not you need to lock into a certain structure. Then again, most of these websites know it would be foolish to champion any one of the story structures as god's gift to man since that's a pretty stupid position to take.
Again though, your video is good for the newbies espescially if they're being hounded by the people you run in critical circles with.
I thought it was a lovely video. It seemed a little obvious to me, but I understand how people who arent knee deep in a subject might just latch onto the popular thought and not know the nuances like "there are in fact many different frameworks for different genres and stories."
There are two issues:
- It's a thing to list narrative structure, but the writing guides won't analyze drawbacks of each structures. A beginner writer would be like "woah, Hobbit and Star Wars followed the Hero's journey, that must be the dopest structure", while not realizing the compatibility of their work and their needs
- While most people learn three and four act structure at school, the monomyth became firmly rooted in pop culture. Like Jordan Peterson who made a rhethoric about "you too must become the hero and face the figurative dragon by cleaning your room". Because of this, your average joe may hold monomyth in higher esteem. In fact, OP mentions in the first video how writers felt dismissed just because they didn't follow pop culture
In conclusion, I think this is a non-trivial comment on narrative structures that deserved the efforts.
It's nice to have some guidelines but it's your story, so the who cares if you don't use the "Checklist of things every writer totally has to use to make their story legit because otherwise it would be WROOOOOONG!!!!!"?
There's a similar issue in drawing like Loomis method to draw head or anatomy. If you are a complete beginner, it gives built-in style choices, content and structure to the figure you draw without the need for you to consciously decide them.
But it will hold you back if you decide to draw big tiddies anime waifu or stylized figure. That's why you never see speedpainting recording where artist lay down every guidelines. They have a looser framework in their head or they just pick whichever method suits in the moment.
In practice I'm as much of a pantser as an outliner so all my narrative structure ends up in fire anyway.
IRL you will find people complain about how one style is better than another (especially pissing on anime style). It's the same with the hero's journey, and it's ok for people to find one style more aesthetically pleasing than another style of stories. It's just that people must not lose sight that this taste is subjective and hero's journey in its original form actually turns out to be more niche than a true recipe of universal popularity (unlike how Campbell sells it).
I fucking died and dropped the hobbit when they opened the story with dwarves singing and cleaning the dishes or smth.
At this point, it's worth noting that people become elitist about everything, not just limited to story structure or art stye. They'll be elitist about genre, authors, approaches to therapy, cars, podcasters, scientists, relationship advice.
People just like complaining.
What you need to do in life is find the approaches that work for you, in your own unique context, adapt as neccessary and be resistant to those that speak in absolutes and without nuance. Which just comes back to the Hero's Journey. It's a guidepost, not an absolute. It's up to the person to be able to engage with it instead of just blindly following it, and be able to determine its weaknesses and strengths.
