EXP and Levels

[NotaNuffian]

There are multiple ways of earning EXP afaik, like killing, crafting and the last is doing quests for NPCs. If there are more methods, do tell.

But what if I remove the "doing quests for NPCs" method of earning EXP, will players still enjoy going speaking to the people of the land? Of course they do, because unless they know what to do by instinct, they still need guidance from the locals.

You know the common fetch quest in JRPGs where they will task for pickups, pest extermination and letter sending. While pest extermination might grant some EXP, the first and the last is definitely not providing any EXP from just the action, only after you finish the chores do you get the EXP.

I have recently thought that it is a bit of a stretch to grant players EXP for just talking with a bunch of NPCs, do some chores and viola, EXP. If it is money, it makes sense and maybe one can argue the EXP gain is for learning how to do the chore/ learning new lores. But does learning secrets really help to increase your physical stats? Maybe the intelligence and Wisdom stats, others stats are a No for me.

Even crafting things to gain EXP is a bit miffed for me too, possibly due to Undertale *insert Sans note* saying things like "gaining EXP is through murder". I understand that EXP is given so that players feel the sense of achievement on watching the numbers go up. Even the EXP granted when murdering makes little sense and only supported by you shanking someone until they dead their lifeforce is sucked up by you.

PS. This is derailing the topic a bit ->[The level system only serves as a benchmark like cultivation system with their golden pearl and MPreg and that itself makes me scratch my head hard.] Because when the EXP bar is filled, a ding is heard and you gain stat points to customise the character.

Why not just ditch the EXP and level system and opt for people grinding their skills and through grinding they gain stats? Because the game then turns into some weird grindfest with players not murdering because it provides the least incentives.

This is a branch off of this topic https://forum.scribblehub.com/threads/the-relationship-between-class-job-skill-and-stats.6372/

Tldr:
1. Does providing EXP to LARPers and Crafting classes make sense if they are not out their genociding?
2. Does leveling up via EXP and gaining stats makes sense? Taking from Overgeared (and other KR novels)'s imbalanced gaming structure that allows one to gain stats by repetitive sword swings that also levels up the sword mastery too...
3. Came from point 2, does having character level and skill level in the same system makes sense?

 

[Jemini]

Are you talking about designing a table top RPG, improving your DM skills for D&D, or designing a liteRPG setting for a story?

Whatever the answer, I think we can come up with some common added methods.


If it is a liteRPG setting specifically, book learning ought to provide some EXP, as would doing business deals. Business deals and things like political negotiating actually should provide a lot more EXP than repeated crafting of some work you have made millions of times due to the dynamic and changing field of working with people Vs. things. By the same logic, playing games with friends or convincing people to become your friend should also give EXP.

In a more traditional RPG setting, particularly table top, avoiding combat or scouting out information on the enemy ought to give a portion of the EXP you would get from actually defeating the same number of enemies that are seen in the enemy force. This idea is transferable to a liteRPG setting as well, but it should probably grant considerably less EXP in a liteRPG and a heftier share for the table top player.

 

[trinitys_gadget]

Um.. Half the fun of travelling is meeting people and talking with them. Nobody's ever given me a quest, usually they help me out instead, whether it's a meal or a place to stay or company in a canyon or a belay up a climb or a bottle of water in the dessert. I try to share something with these people, whether it's making pancakes of breakfast (using their ingredients or mine), loaning out a climbing rope, passing along my excess water, offering the use of my first-aide kit, or sometimes just the price of a conversation. If you want to make your RPG (lit or tt) immersive, then tell the truth about, or insist you characters have, these interactions and ditch the fetch quests.

 

[NotaNuffian]

Are you talking about designing a table top RPG, improving your DM skills for D&D, or designing a liteRPG setting for a story?

Whatever the answer, I think we can come up with some common added methods.


If it is a liteRPG setting specifically, book learning ought to provide some EXP, as would doing business deals. Business deals and things like political negotiating actually should provide a lot more EXP than repeated crafting of some work you have made millions of times due to the dynamic and changing field of working with people Vs. things. By the same logic, playing games with friends or convincing people to become your friend should also give EXP.

In a more traditional RPG setting, particularly table top, avoiding combat or scouting out information on the enemy ought to give a portion of the EXP you would get from actually defeating the same number of enemies that are seen in the enemy force. This idea is transferable to a liteRPG setting as well, but it should probably grant considerably less EXP in a liteRPG and a heftier share for the table top player.

I am planning for a VRMMORPG that has "realism" plastered all over it. For example, players venture into the game will find themselves having no blue screen to assist them, each NPC is unique and even humanlike, there are no generated quest from either the game system or NPCs and therefore no EXP as rewards for those just trying to grind simple quests for level up. Murdering monsters yield diminishing EXP and crafting and bartering will grant you EXP for every success, but like you stated, at a diminishing rate if the job is just a repetitive, monotonous slog with no innovation.

Edit1: it is basically isekai with a VRMMORPG tag on it.

 

[K5Rakitan]

Gain EXP by eating/drinking magical substances, such as unicorn milk.

 

[ElijahRyne]

There are multiple ways of earning EXP afaik, like killing, crafting and the last is doing quests for NPCs. If there are more methods, do tell.

But what if I remove the "doing quests for NPCs" method of earning EXP, will players still enjoy going speaking to the people of the land? Of course they do, because unless they know what to do by instinct, they still need guidance from the locals.

You know the common fetch quest in JRPGs where they will task for pickups, pest extermination and letter sending. While pest extermination might grant some EXP, the first and the last is definitely not providing any EXP from just the action, only after you finish the chores do you get the EXP.

I have recently thought that it is a bit of a stretch to grant players EXP for just talking with a bunch of NPCs, do some chores and viola, EXP. If it is money, it makes sense and maybe one can argue the EXP gain is for learning how to do the chore/ learning new lores. But does learning secrets really help to increase your physical stats? Maybe the intelligence and Wisdom stats, others stats are a No for me.

Even crafting things to gain EXP is a bit miffed for me too, possibly due to Undertale *insert Sans note* saying things like "gaining EXP is through murder". I understand that EXP is given so that players feel the sense of achievement on watching the numbers go up. Even the EXP granted when murdering makes little sense and only supported by you shanking someone until they dead their lifeforce is sucked up by you.

PS. This is derailing the topic a bit ->[The level system only serves as a benchmark like cultivation system with their golden pearl and MPreg and that itself makes me scratch my head hard.] Because when the EXP bar is filled, a ding is heard and you gain stat points to customise the character.

Why not just ditch the EXP and level system and opt for people grinding their skills and through grinding they gain stats? Because the game then turns into some weird grindfest with players not murdering because it provides the least incentives.

This is a branch off of this topic https://forum.scribblehub.com/threads/the-relationship-between-class-job-skill-and-stats.6372/

Tldr:
1. Does providing EXP to LARPers and Crafting classes make sense if they are not out their genociding?
2. Does leveling up via EXP and gaining stats makes sense? Taking from Overgeared (and other KR novels)'s imbalanced gaming structure that allows one to gain stats by repetitive sword swings that also levels up the sword mastery too...
3. Came from point 2, does having character level and skill level in the same system makes sense?

Advice assuming this is for a story, and not a game, it is probably best to start by explaining what exp is. Is it:

Something granted by a higher power/How a soul manifests knowledge/Something like time that you can measure and know what it does, without knowing what it is/anything else.

Once you define it, it should be easier to do the next step, defining how it works. For example, if exp was how souls grow, then doin activities to expand the soul will increase levels. Maybe the soul needs some sort of energy to grow, and gaining that can raise exp? Maybe when someone kills something they gain a piece of its soul? Maybe strengthening your body &/or your mind increases exp? When you define how exp works then you just need to balance everything.

In my opinion:
I would say that exp should be gained by learning something new and practicing something old. As for wheter it makes sense to gain exp through killing or quests, that is for you to decide. I do agree that allowing someone to gain exp through doing one task repeatedly is kind of broken. To fix it you can make it so you have dimenidhing returns to gaining exp by doing the same thing, you could lock the total amount of levels/exp you can get from a task (be that daily, monthly, or for life), require an exponential increase of exp for increases in level, or any other way.

Doing a bunch of tasks for npcs is a bad way to design how to gain exp if you do not add limits to it. In example, maybe the quest giver has to give up some of their own exp, instead of having the exp being gained from the system.

 

[Chaos_Sinner777]

I was thinking of doing a Pacifist monster reincarnated mc a while back and was trying to come up with non-lethal ways to earn EXP so they could still evolve. Anyway, I came up with Cultivation as a unique skill. That was weird. Basically they can turn mana or other supernatural energies into EXP at a low rate. Like 100 to 1 for MP. Then I decided that was insane and made a repeatable achievement system that grants exp. Diminishing returns though.

 

[NotaNuffian]

Gain EXP by eating/drinking magical substances, such as unicorn milk.

... that is for rich folks.

No I am serious on that. Only whales and lucky players who ring the gatcha outside can get elixirs that grant them EXP, with the cost of "EXP poisoning", ie you need more EXP to level up then.

For example the elixir can grant 10,000 EXP points when your character needs 1,000,000, but drinking it puts a permanent % increase in the EXP required for level up. In this case it is a 0.1% and now you require an additional 1000 EXP for level up. Also, the debuff will not be dropped, so if you end up level up to the next level and initially you require 3,000,000 points for the next level, now you need 3,003,000 total amount of EXP.

Advice assuming this is for a story, and not a game, it is probably best to start by explaining what exp is. Is it:

Something granted by a higher power/How a soul manifests knowledge/Something like time that you can measure and know what it does, without knowing what it is/anything else.

Once you define it, it should be easier to do the next step, defining how it works. For example, if exp was how souls grow, then doin activities to expand the soul will increase levels. Maybe the soul needs some sort of energy to grow, and gaining that can raise exp? Maybe when someone kills something they gain a piece of its soul? Maybe strengthening your body &/or your mind increases exp? When you define how exp works then you just need to balance everything.

In my opinion:
I would say that exp should be gained by learning something new and practicing something old. As for wheter it makes sense to gain exp through killing or quests, that is for you to decide. I do agree that allowing someone to gain exp through doing one task repeatedly is kind of broken. To fix it you can make it so you have dimenidhing returns to gaining exp by doing the same thing, you could lock the total amount of levels/exp you can get from a task (be that daily, monthly, or for life), require an exponential increase of exp for increases in level, or any other way.

Doing a bunch of tasks for npcs is a bad way to design how to gain exp if you do not add limits to it. In example, maybe the quest giver has to give up some of their own exp, instead of having the exp being gained from the system.

Oh. Because I focus the EXP gained with stealing lifeforce, I got narrow-minded.

So doing stuff that allows your soul to grow, which is translated into gaining EXP. That is genuinely a good idea, though the repetitive portion needs to be nerfed though, because even if it is 99% perspiration, the 1% inspiration serves a more important factor for breakthrough.

 

[Jemini]

I am planning for a VRMMORPG that has "realism" plastered all over it. For example, players venture into the game will find themselves having no blue screen to assist them, each NPC is unique and even humanlike, there are no generated quest from either the game system or NPCs and therefore no EXP as rewards for those just trying to grind simple quests for level up. Murdering monsters yield diminishing EXP and crafting and bartering will grant you EXP for every success, but like you stated, at a diminishing rate if the job is just a repetitive, monotonous slog with no innovation.

In that case, I would definitely lean into the negotiating and deal making. In fact, it could have something like an invisible quest system in which the quests are negotiated by the player, with the satisfaction of the NPC and the difficulty of the quest as the PC negotiated it factoring into the equation. (Having succeeded at the exact same task once already would be a HUGE hit to drop the difficulty rating.)

Another thing that would factor in is persuading the NPC in the first place. Negotiating a deal with a skeptical or hostile NPC would yield a lot more EXP than a friendly NPC. Developing a positive reputation due to repeatedly succeeding in quests would help you out in terms of relating well with other NPCs, but it would actually work against you in terms of easy level grinding as your positive reputation makes negotiations easier.

Also, rather than just killing monsters, a larger part of the self-betterment experience would more likely be the act of surviving in the wilderness. In this light, hunting rabbits would yield a fair amount of EXP even though rabbits are not that tough to kill. The fact that they run away means that you need to work on your hunting skills just to get them in the first place, and figuring out how to do that would give you EXP.

Overall, I think it all really boils down to one thing. The thing that gets you EXP is problem solving. Things like murdering monsters and completing quests are outcomes, but the thing that gets you there is the problem solving and it is the problem solving that is the real source of the EXP.

 

[TotallyHuman]

I mean, you gain experience for knowing how things are. Knowing secrets is an experience too, right? How they increase physical stats... Well, not everything has to make sense

 

[NotaNuffian]

In that case, I would definitely lean into the negotiating and deal making. In fact, it could have something like an invisible quest system in which the quests are negotiated by the player, with the satisfaction of the NPC and the difficulty of the quest as the PC negotiated it factoring into the equation. (Having succeeded at the exact same task once already would be a HUGE hit to drop the difficulty rating.)

Another thing that would factor in is persuading the NPC in the first place. Negotiating a deal with a skeptical or hostile NPC would yield a lot more EXP than a friendly NPC. Developing a positive reputation due to repeatedly succeeding in quests would help you out in terms of relating well with other NPCs, but it would actually work against you in terms of easy level grinding as your positive reputation makes negotiations easier.

Also, rather than just killing monsters, a larger part of the self-betterment experience would more likely be the act of surviving in the wilderness. In this light, hunting rabbits would yield a fair amount of EXP even though rabbits are not that tough to kill. The fact that they run away means that you need to work on your hunting skills just to get them in the first place, and figuring out how to do that would give you EXP.

Overall, I think it all really boils down to one thing. The thing that gets you EXP is problem solving. Things like murdering monsters and completing quests are outcomes, but the thing that gets you there is the problem solving and it is the problem solving that is the real source of the EXP.

Good point, though now I am required to tweak a bunch of issues here and there as I sort of make it into a cutthroat world where not only is killing monsters is the way to gain EXP, but only those who finishes the monster aka Last Attack gets it all.

 

[Jemini]

Good point, though now I am required to tweak a bunch of issues here and there as I sort of make it into a cutthroat world where not only is killing monsters is the way to gain EXP, but only those who finishes the monster aka Last Attack gets it all.

Okaaaay. I thought last time you said you were going for a "realism" angle. Didn't know that you were one of those types where "realism" was a coded excuse for "let's make things unrealistically awful beyond anything actually seen in the real world."

Shifting from sarcasm mode into honest advice mode now, you might want to think about your approach there, or at least sort out the motivations of your in-world designers of this system. If it is a VRMMORPG, then that is TERRIBLE game design. It has a distinct sense of unfairness, and unfairness would drive away players and make the game a financial failure. Game designers are very conscious of things like that.

 

[Arkus86]

Tldr:
1. Does providing EXP to LARPers and Crafting classes make sense if they are not out their genociding?
2. Does leveling up via EXP and gaining stats makes sense? Taking from Overgeared (and other KR novels)'s imbalanced gaming structure that allows one to gain stats by repetitive sword swings that also levels up the sword mastery too...
3. Came from point 2, does having character level and skill level in the same system makes sense?

Ask yourself, what is EXP? Then ask yourself, EXP being what is is, what methods could provide EXP gain?

If EXP is simply a measure of how proficient you are at any given task, then every action can provide EXP to its respective skill or attribute, but character levels should at most be a measure of your overall growth, tied to all your skills and attributes instead of a separate EXP bar.
Alternatively, if EXP is a reward from the system of sorts for pushing your limits, both skill and character levels make sense, allowing instants growth of proficiency and attributes respectively upon reaching certian threshold of achievements. You also would not get any EXP without notable effort.
Then, in some novels, EXP is a measure of your soul/mana/other kind of power imbued in your body, and you can raise it by killing other creatures, which allows you to absorb a portion of theirs and grow stronger through it. Esistence of skill levels is questinable in this context.
And finally, you can have any combination/variant of the above or a completely different system.

 

[irei1as]

it is a bit of a stretch to grant players EXP for just talking with a bunch of NPCs

In real life, a lot of people would find that very troubling and soul-draining.

Imagine the shy young adventuring girl entering the butcher shop with a giant muscular bald old man processing meat with his intimidating knife. "What the hell you want?" *thack!* *mystery meat gets cut in half*
Now what do you think would happen if it where a normal young girl playing a VRMMORPG:
a) She asks him about the horned rabbit hunt quest.
b) *Eek* The girl runs scared.
c) She puts a bucket in his head and steals all the meat.
d) She would make a pervert joke while getting donations from twitch.

If I were a video game programmer with abysmal salary that didn't sleep in the 7 days before launch I would want to recompense option a.

 

[NotaNuffian]

Okaaaay. I thought last time you said you were going for a "realism" angle. Didn't know that you were one of those types where "realism" was a coded excuse for "let's make things unrealistically awful beyond anything actually seen in the real world."

Shifting from sarcasm mode into honest advice mode now, you might want to think about your approach there, or at least sort out the motivations of your in-world designers of this system. If it is a VRMMORPG, then that is TERRIBLE game design. It has a distinct sense of unfairness, and unfairness would drive away players and make the game a financial failure. Game designers are very conscious of things like that.

Duly noted.

Like, the wish fulfilment work becomes less of a plausible thing and it becomes a penis measuring contest for the players, I got to stop try and create ideas when I am horny and should continue on writing the second chapter that I promised a reader in AO3. More than a year ago.

Just a question, as a player, what would you do, when your guild master told you to join in a raid to go after ONE player because the player happens to be the one who ruined the game and cause it to shut down earlier? And when I mean join a raid, it is more like a gang bang festival as his plan is to literally pile bodies onto the player, spawn camp the poor sod until he drops back to level zero and then spawn camp him some more.

So the takeaway I have here is "think about the game and why would the game designers create something that will lose them players instead." Ignoring that it is the first VRMMORPG that people feel like it is as though they isekaied, if the game mechanics is actively working against them, then the "feels like a second life" feature is not enough to save it.

 

[Biggest-Kusa-Out-There]

I am planning for a VRMMORPG that has "realism" plastered all over it. For example, players venture into the game will find themselves having no blue screen to assist them, each NPC is unique and even humanlike, there are no generated quest from either the game system or NPCs and therefore no EXP as rewards for those just trying to grind simple quests for level up. Murdering monsters yield diminishing EXP and crafting and bartering will grant you EXP for every success, but like you stated, at a diminishing rate if the job is just a repetitive, monotonous slog with no innovation.

Edit1: it is basically isekai with a VRMMORPG tag on it.

I'd expect the game to have a playerbase under 50 players total per week with a peak of 2000 at launch, a refund rate of at least 60%, and more. You know, with 'realism' plastered all over it.

 

[NotaNuffian]

Ask yourself, what is EXP? Then ask yourself, EXP being what is is, what methods could provide EXP gain?

If EXP is simply a measure of how proficient you are at any given task, then every action can provide EXP to its respective skill or attribute, but character levels should at most be a measure of your overall growth, tied to all your skills and attributes instead of a separate EXP bar.
Alternatively, if EXP is a reward from the system of sorts for pushing your limits, both skill and character levels make sense, allowing instants growth of proficiency and attributes respectively upon reaching certian threshold of achievements. You also would not get any EXP without notable effort.
Then, in some novels, EXP is a measure of your soul/mana/other kind of power imbued in your body, and you can raise it by killing other creatures, which allows you to absorb a portion of theirs and grow stronger through it. Esistence of skill levels is questinable in this context.
And finally, you can have any combination/variant of the above or a completely different system.

That is a bit of a difficulty because in the setting, players are allow to learn copious amount of skills, random or otherwise with no limits. The only limiting factor becomes time itself.

In my case, I am planning to drop the concept of level in total as all it can do is acting as a terrible gauge for power and mostly as a limiting factor to equip arms and join campaigns.

I'd expect the game to have a playerbase under 50 players total per week with a peak of 2000 at launch, a refund rate of at least 60%, and more. You know, with 'realism' plastered all over it.

Kind of like those pay-to-win shitstorms IRL.

Silly me

 

[Biggest-Kusa-Out-There]

That is a bit of a difficulty because in the setting, players are allow to learn copious amount of skills, random or otherwise with no limits. The only limiting factor becomes time itself.

In my case, I am planning to drop the concept of level in total as all it can do is acting as a terrible gauge for power and mostly as a limiting factor to equip arms and join campaigns.

Kind of like those pay-to-win shitstorms IRL.

Silly me

 

[NotaNuffian]

I have absolutely no idea why, but the british accent is sexy.

Edit1: Oh good lord, it takes money to make money and it takes experience and perhaps a team to not waste that money.

 

[Jemini]

Duly noted.

.....

Ok. So, considering the nature of this question, I think I should take it in 2 parts.

Just a question, as a player, what would you do, when your guild master told you to join in a raid to go after ONE player because the player happens to be the one who ruined the game and cause it to shut down earlier? And when I mean join a raid, it is more like a gang bang festival as his plan is to literally pile bodies onto the player, spawn camp the poor sod until he drops back to level zero and then spawn camp him some more.

My personal reaction would be to ask how it is that one player can cause something like that. If the answer is hacking, my next question would be how he expects us to be able to do anything about that, because a hacker who can shut down the game probably has the ability to manipulate spawn location or even his level or gear. Only an idiot would go after a hacker if they aren't using hacking cheats themselves.

I'd also question why it is that the admins haven't just banned the guy already if he's responsible for this. A method like this is either a fool's errand or a witch hunt. If what they claim really happened, then this is something for the admins to deal with, not players.

That said, level-loss on re-spawn is another player-loosing game mechanic.

So the takeaway I have here is "think about the game and why would the game designers create something that will lose them players instead." Ignoring that it is the first VRMMORPG that people feel like it is as though they isekaied, if the game mechanics is actively working against them, then the "feels like a second life" feature is not enough to save it.

The simple answer is, they absolutely wouldn't design a game that has mechanics they know from previous research would loose them players. ESPECIALLY if it is the first VRMMORPG. They are taking a risk by being the first to the scene, so they would do everything they could to play everything else as safe as they possibly could. That's how business people think.

Also, no, "feels like a second life" absolutely would not be enough to save the game if it has incredibly unfair mechanics like unfair split of EXP and the devil's triangle of PK allowed, level loss on re-spawn, and spawn-point camping.

I seriously think you should look at Phantasy Star Online and the problems that game's online servers had before you even consider writing something like this. That game, despite truly excellent game-play, basically died as a result of mechanics that were just a little less unfair than what you are describing right now. There was no level-loss, but dying caused you to drop 1 piece of your gear. PKing was not allowed, but hackers managed to figure out a way to allow their spell damage to affect other players. Re-spawn always happened in the safe-zone, and players could make private partitions for just their group to go down to the field, but hackers found a way to hack into their private rooms.

Ultimately, it was just that gear dropping mechanic that caused 100% of the problems. If they did not have that, it would not have incentivized the hackers to do all this malicious stuff that lost the game a lot of players. And so, the sequel, Phantasy Star Universe, fixed all those problems using the money they'd managed to earn from the early days of the server before the hackers figured out all these malicious tricks that trashed the game.

What you are talking about here is allowing your players to just have access to the abilities the Phantasy Star Online hackers did, except you are making it an actual part of the intended game design instead. The PSO designers never meant for their game to turn into what it did. That was all hackers, and they were in a panic to fix those problems once they were discovered. They knew it was bad for the game. So, there is no way any game designer would be so stupid as to think it's a good idea to actually build the things PSO hackers did into the intentional design of a game.

----------

EDIT: Really, a guiding rule to figuring out whether or not the game you are writing is in any way realistic and a good design, you are going to have to ask yourself one simple question.

"Would I have fun playing this game?"

If it has unfair mechanics like the ones you are describing, I would never even pick up the game in the first place. I wouldn't even give it a first look. It would have a bunch of people who rage-quit the game in the first few weeks after it's launch, and a lot of potential customers would hear these bad reviews and never buy a copy in the first place as a result.

You can't think about whether or not it caters to what you want to do with the story telling. You need to ask whether or not it would be a game that would be fun to play and if it is a game that would make money for the developers.

If you want an example of a web-novel/anime that did a THOROUGHLY good job of designing an actual good game that also catered to good story telling, look at Bofuri. Yes, the protagonist actually did completely break that game, but it was because of loop-holes and oversights in the game design, and the protagonist just had a habit of repeatedly finding these loop-holes by being a lovable and impulsive cinnamon bun. When she found these loop-holes, the game designers added a patch to make it so that exploit was no longer possible. The protagonist got to keep the broken skills she earned, but nobody else could ever acquire the same skill via the exploit she used again. Some of her skills even got nurffed by the designers after it was decided they were WAY too OP as she demonstrated them in use.

And, aside from the occasional loop-hole the protagonist keeps discovering and exploiting by happen-stance, it actually is a rather well designed game for a web-novel based MMO.