Matriarchy Vs. Patriarchy in world building.

Jemini

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Let me start this one with a bit of a personal experience I had reading a manga recently.

I read this manga, and it featured a kingdom in which the ruling family is descended from a hero who is a master of the sword. This hero's bloodline, passed down through the royal family, also passes on the hero's gift of elevated strength, speed, and skill that is well beyond mortal bounds.

Kinda typical so far, but here's the thing that got my mind going. The government of this nation was a matriarchy, in which the Queen ran the country and only the Queen's daughters could be considered a viable heir to the throne.

At first, I found this a little strange for a nation ruled by swords and warriors and in which the royal family's gift was ability in personal combat. But... after a little thought, I realized this nation being a matrilineal matriarchy actually made perfect sense. If the royal family's value is the passing down of the hero's blood, there is no better way to absolutely garantee each descendent is a direct line from the first hero than to have the throne passed down from mother to daughter. That explains the matrilineality, but as for the matriarchy governance, that is also well explained by the fact that the hero's bloodline makes all members of the royal family powerful warriors. If men would be more physically strong than women, this would mean the men of the royal family would be expected to go to the front line and fight in person. This would pose a major problem for the survivability of male members of the royal family, and as such it would be the female members of the royal family that would make for more stable governance.

Once you really consider it, it is some really good world building that this series made this nation a matriarchy. It shows the artist really considered the implications and natural pressures that would influence governance.

With this in mind, I wanted to briefly consider and discuss some things that may influence matriarchy Vs. patriarchy and matriliniality Vs. patriliniality in a society.

Unique benefits of patriarchy.
Men don't get pregnant, and therefore will not require down-time, making for more consistent day-to-day governance.
Men are physically more imposing, and thus can gain more respect in foreign negotiations on a psychological level.

Unique benefits of Matriarchy.
Women are less likely to be sent to war and are at lower overall risk of death, making for more stable governance in the long term.

Unique benefits of patriliniality (passing down from father to son)
Men can have multiple wives and father more children, thus increasing the chances of producing an heir.
-Cons argument: This can also lead to very destabilizing succession battles due to the larger number of children, as well as the multiple wives who have political power supporting their own children and exacerbating the bloodiness of the conflict.

Unique benefits of matriliniality (passing down from mother to daughter)
There is zero risk of infidelity muddying the succession line. It is a virtual guarantee, barring adoptions or deceptions (which would be very visible), that the woman in question is absolutely the blood descendant of the woman who started the family line.
-(obvious cons argument, counter to the men's benefit argument, there is an existing chance the queen could be barren or otherwise fail to produce a viable heir, thus potentially ending the family line.)

This is, of course, barring the more controversial talk of psychological quirks of one gender or the other preferring various governance policies or being softer/harder, or more rational on various subjects. I have chosen not to get into those because those subjects are a giant can of worms. If you want to take those subjects into consideration for your own worldbuilding and such, be my guest. I'm not going to provide ammunition for one side or the other on the subject.

I would also like to add, if we look to the example of matriarchies in the real world, anthropologists have studied these communities and every single time it can be traced back as to why they became matriarchies it always turns out to be because the men were frequently absent due to things like war in older communities, or high fatalities in jobs like mining in younger matriarchal societies.

(An astute observer would note I did put a pretty major qualifier on that one. It's only in the cases that the reason can be traced back that this is the case. Not all cases of IRL matriarchies can have their origins traced back, and we could potentially have counter-evidence among those societies. We'd just need a time machine in order to check, so we can never know.)
 

TsumiHokiro

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What are the examples of matriarchies in the real world?
Matriarch:
Mosuo, China
Bribri, Costa Rica
Umoja, Kenya
Minangkabau, Indonesia

Matrilineal:
Akan, Ghana
Khasi, India
Garo, India and Bangladesh
Tuareg, Saharan dessert

Modern examples.
Edited for later clarification.
 
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Lloyd

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There is a reason matriarchies never existed in real life besides a few backwards tribal people living in jungles.
 

Anon2024

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The reason matriarchal societies don’t last is because on average (this is an average wit outliers), women are…

Never mind, I don’t want to offend anyone.
 

Placeholder

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How much of "this is natural for a society" reflects 18th Century British thinking?
 

Jemini

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I'm gonna go grab the popcorn. Can't wait for this to go from a meaningful conversation to people just throwing names at each other

XMOS... Envy... Tim... Sally.

Does that count? (Sorry, I just had to.)
 

Templary

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but they did, many times, and they weren't tribes, someone just posted that above you dumbass
well done, this post just called for all the incels to come out of their caves
... I think I was going to say physically weaker... And many men will say that women should not be leaders and there are very valid reasons why they had a very fundamental weight before. But it was before now there are not so many inconveniences by having a woman as a leader.
I'm gonna go grab the popcorn. Can't wait for this to go from a meaningful conversation to people just throwing names at each other
Honestly it will be fun
 

Kenjona

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Let me throw this out there:
Not all Matrilineal societies are Matriarchies. You can have a Matrilineal society that is Patriarchal. I suppose the reverse is also true, but I do not know real world examples for the reverse.
Mosuo, China
Bribri, Costa Rica
Umoja, Kenya
Minangkabau, Indonesia
Akan, Ghana
Khasi, India
Garo, India and Bangladesh
Tuareg, Saharan dessert

Modern examples.
Not all of them are Matriarchies on your list. Some maybe Matrilineal but are Patriarchal in government. The Tuareg for instance are Matrilineal in descent, but are very much Patriarchal in government.
Others are transitioning from Matriarchal to a Mixture: The Mosuo and may very well end up Patriarchal due to pressure from outside.
Others that are Matrilineal but are neither Matriarchal, nor Patriarchal. They divide up certain jobs between the sexes, especially ceremonial ones, but government is mixed.

Oh and a big one that is not on your list of Matrilineal societies; Orthodox Judaism. Even if the various orthodox versions are all very staunch Patriarchies. Though recent discussions/decisions on descent within some Jewish groups is changing it to look like they are both or Patrilineal.
 
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Jemini

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Let me throw this out there:
Not all Matrilineal societies are Matriarchies. You can have a Matrilineal society that is Patriarchal. I suppose the reverse is also true, but I do not know real world examples for the reverse.

Yeah, I was going to mention the separation of Matriarchy and Matriliniarity, but I felt it would be too confusing to put it in the title and I wound up running way too long in the OP to make mention of it. So, instead, I just decided to get by with having mentioned them separately in the unique benefits section obviously apart from the patriarchy and matriarchy by the fact that they are staggered.

But, yeah. We in the western world have grown used to patriliniarity running in conjunction with patriarchy, and so it sort of becomes assumed they are inherently connected. Well, that's actually not necessarily true, and there are definitely examples out there of matrilinial patriarchies.

Actually, I have a lot of respect for that approach. In a monarchy setting, it would mean that the birth-right inheritor daughter has the duty of choosing the new King. This introduces a level of meritocracy to the equation, even if the merit is heavily weighted toward enticing the princess' favor. (Although, in all seriousness, I'm quite certain her choice would be largely made for her by the entire power structure around her.)
 

Jemini

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You can mix the two, no?
What? Matriarchy and Patriarchy? Or Matraliniarity and patriarchy, or patraliniarity and matriarchy?

Yes to the second, those mix quite easily. No to the first, they are by definition mutually exclusive. You can have a nation in which some institutions are run by a patriarical system and other institutions by a matriarical system, such as having a patriarical church in the middle of a matriarchy. Or, you can have various positions that are run matriarically or patriarically. However, that is not an actual "mix."

Any case in which the governance can be run by either gender, it is no longer matriarchy or patriarchy. One of the most well known governance systems that is gender-agnostic is meritocracy, but I'm sure there's others out there that I'm just ignorant to.

(I had a lot of fun in my world building when I actually designed a meritocratic monarchy. It is run by a race that does not reproduce, rather their young appear magically without parents, but what they DO have is that every member of this race retains memories of their previous life and are thus pretty much born as capable as any adult. As such, the governing monarchy has a practice of merit-based adoption, in which the "adoption" is really more of an apprenticeship for the political position.)
 

Lodur

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Khasi, India
Garo, India and Bangladesh
Khasi were definitely patriarchal. They had several siems (kings), obviously all male. I don't know about Garo people historical rulers, but society is nevertherless patriarchal. Though both Khasi and Garo are matrilineal communities.
Oh and a big one that is not on your list of Matrilineal societies; Orthodox Judaism.
Indo-Aryans were originally matrilineal, but changed to be patrilineal at some point. We can even see the exact moment while studying parampara sections of Brihad-Aranyaka Upanishad. The parampara (line of scripture transmission) starts with "son of particular mother" and changes to "son of particular father" at some point.
 
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owotrucked

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This is, of course, barring the more controversial talk of psychological quirks of one gender or the other preferring various governance policies or being softer/harder, or more rational on various subjects. I have chosen not to get into those because those subjects are a giant can of worms. If you want to take those subjects into consideration for your own worldbuilding and such, be my guest. I'm not going to provide ammunition for one side or the other on the subject.

Many studies support that the effects of testosterone across the animal kingdom result in higher competitiveness and aggressiveness.

Prenatal exposure leads to both anatomical changes (index finger size vs ring finger size, and distance between anus and genitals) and psychological changes (personality traits, interests, competitiveness).

Therefore, I put forward the hypothesis that a matriarchy is more likely to exhibit a more conservative progression of civilization versus a patriarchy that would contest resources and lands with higher aggressivity. If we look at this tendency over large span of times, I think natural selection would give an edge to patriarchies to grow into behemoth while matriarchies would be small stubborn survivor in their niche


You brought interesting points to queendoms in manga. It would be important to note that a person can't rule alone, so the gender of the noble heads might be more relevant to the political influence of patriarchy or matriarchy. You could end up with a patriarchal queendom or a matriarchal kingdom where only the crown's gender is switched compared to their common society norm.

In the end, I dont think it is far fetched that queens have occasionally risen to power in patriarchal societies
 
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laccoff_mawning

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There is zero risk of infidelity muddying the succession line
I don't see why this would be unique to matriliniarity? If blood is "passed down" through descendants, then why would it matter if its passed down from the mother's side or the father's side?
 
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