Moderation and Slurs

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Angry_Clown

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the thread only went in the drama direction when YOU started posting here.
Yes-yes, I'm the supreme overlord that forces people to post drama and discuss bullshit claims and reply to each other. Sure. The drama only started after I forced YOU at gunpoint to post a reply to my message. It's all your fault now and you must repent.

You scream "drama"
Nobody "screams" drama, you overbaked metrosexual fruitcake.

Before you and me started these people were just discussing politely
You mean 30% were wondering if they're the only ones that mistook "f-slur" for "fuck" and "faggot" for a minced offal dish, 30% calling him out on his bullshit and made-up issue (including you), and the remaining 40% being unrelated general retardation inherent to human interaction? Sure, we can call that a "polite discussion", lmao.
 

Discount_Blade

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Yes-yes, I'm the supreme overlord that forces people to post drama and discuss bullshit claims and reply to each other. Sure. The drama only started after I forced YOU at gunpoint to post a reply to my message. It's all your fault now and you must repent.


Nobody "screams" drama, you overbaked metrosexual fruitcake.


You mean 30% were wondering if they're the only ones that mistook "f-slur" for "fuck" and "faggot" for a minced offal dish, 30% calling him out on his bullshit and made-up issue (including you), and the remaining 40% being unrelated general retardation inherent to human interaction? Sure, we can call that a "polite discussion", lmao.
@CupcakeNinja To be fair, I had a mostly disrespectful comment to give about several people in this thread before @Angry_Clown even made his first reply, so this thread was probably in trouble regardless.
 

CupcakeNinja

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About trolls being easily discovered. I'm not so sure about this,
see thats why i'd be a perfect mod...because IM a troll! I'd obviously recognize my own kind and bring the ban hammer on them so hard it'd make Nagasaki look like mild burn.
if you are confident in your own skills, well then you are right. If you didn't already notice, my English is far from perfect, so I have trouble understanding or writing about more difficult topics.
And now about dictatorship, and absolute impartiality not being needed. Well, what can I say about it? When at Rome, do as the Romans do. You are correct here.
It's just that I personally would leave this forum. I've came here precisely because there is enough freedom to talk about such topics as slurs. I don't know if I offended anyone, or said something bad. But what if a topic about politics or religion comes out next? Even the talk we had about genders. It's all controversial topics, and usually, they are banned. So that no one would get accidentally offended. Well, I'm sure didn't come here to offend anyone, I've come to talk and listen to other people's opinions. However, it's hard to do this when the topics I'm interested in would most likely be banned.
So, by allowing some people to enter, you as well making some others go away. But maybe I'm a jerk, and I deserve this, without me and some other people the forum here would flourish.
meh back in the early days of NU people talked about politics and religion all the time.
But everything changed when Parth became a mod.
We annoyed him too much with all the bullshit so he got tired of it and started locking threads left and right like some kind of tyrant. Lol.

But don't worry. If I become a mod I'll be much more lenient. I'd only start locking threads if people it ends up just being a few cunts talking shit rather than actually discussing the topic. And even then, I'm more liable to put those specific cunts in time out rather than make everyone else suffer with them.

so yeah. @Tony its time. I'm ready
 

SailusGebel

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The only topic I can imagine getting more disastrous here than politics is religion. Me being Pagan means I'm typically outgunned. But I enjoy the challenge nonetheless.
The most painful thing to see is that there is no good or bad answer to philosophical questions. It's not even about that. Perhaps I'm alone here who use my 'answers' as a means to continue the discussion and go towards the thing I want to learn and hear a new opinion of. I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm not arguing in the first place. I'm discussing things because I'm not usually talking with people from all over the planet Earth on a daily basis. I want to hear the thoughts of people that are so different from my own. And they don't let me, or ban me, or ignore me, or say this topic is too heavy and depressing and so on. It sucks.
 

Discount_Blade

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The most painful thing to see is that there is no good or bad answer to philosophical questions. It's not even about that. Perhaps I'm alone here who use my 'answers' as a means to continue the discussion and go towards the thing I want to learn and hear a new opinion of. I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm not arguing in the first place. I'm discussing things because I'm not usually talking with people from all over the planet Earth on a daily basis. I want to hear the thoughts of people that are so different from my own. And they don't let me, or ban me, or ignore me, or say this topic is too heavy and depressing and so on. It sucks.
Most of your problems here in this thread specifically, is that some of your responses were difficult to understand. The rest, was just people not bothering to take too much time to consider because it was obvious your stance was against theres and a line in the sand has long been drawn here.
 

SailusGebel

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see thats why i'd be a perfect mod...because IM a troll! I'd obviously recognize my own kind and bring the ban hammer on them so hard it'd make Nagasaki look like mild burn.

meh back in the early days of NU people talked about politics and religion all the time.
But everything changed when Parth became a mod.
We annoyed him too much with all the bullshit so he got tired of it and started locking threads left and right like some kind of tyrant. Lol.

But don't worry. If I become a mod I'll be much more lenient. I'd only start locking threads if people it ends up just being a few cunts talking shit rather than actually discussing the topic. And even then, I'm more liable to put those specific cunts in time out rather than make everyone else suffer with them.

so yeah. @Tony its time. I'm ready
I don't even have an opinion about you. I don't have an opinion about all the people on this forum. I don't know anyone here, but I do understand that not every one of you from my country, and that's enough for me.
Maybe you would be a great moderator, but you as well don't know me, right? What if I unintentionally violate some rules? Or if you start to know me better you decide to ban me? What if there are other moderators, that would be 'bad'?
 

Discount_Blade

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Ready to spread your cheeks, maybe.

A short-lasting kind of fun. As a mod his policy is to ban trolls. He admits he's a troll. Ergo, he must instantly ban himself on ascending to modhood.
Oh I only said "fun" because I'm sure I would eventually be categorized as a troll as well simply because I'm against all of the "words are violence" people that I find insufferable. I'm 85% convinced Tony is one of these people as well so I'm fairly sure if Mods were made, I would be gone soon enough.
 

CupcakeNinja

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@CupcakeNinja To be fair, I had a mostly disrespectful comment to give about several people in this thread before @Angry_Clown even made his first reply, so this thread was probably in trouble regardless.
lol bruh ya really aint helpin me here. Ah well.

OP was right, I suppose. If it ain't one dude its gonna be another. You know, by all accounts it should be me. Am I not the premier troll here? ....wait that might be @BenJepheneT
Sure, we can call that a polite discussion, lmao. Also i know this may sounds unbecoming of a Lady...but will you please use my mouth as your pleasure-hole and turn my womb into your personal breeding station? Please, senpai?
See I knew you're agree with me. And... i mean since you asked so nicely....
 

BenJepheneT

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The cultural context of slurs -- the bigotry, the violence against minority, the active legislature campaigning to have minorities killed -- has not faded, therefore, the cultural weight of the words cannot fade. It's okay for you to not be offended by them personally. I am not demanding you rearrange your brain to find words offensive. I am actively happy you have on less thing in your life that brings you grief. But not being okay with being treated like shit is not an indicator of mental fragility it's an indicator that you respect yourself and expect more for yourself oh my god.

I emphatically am begging you to stop saying "just ignore words and they'll go away". That's not how this works. At all. You can ignore words. You have the absolute right to ignore words. But your reality is not everyone else's and their own experience with slurs may be different to yours such as, again, my experience with slurs literally going hand in hand with violence against me. AAAAAAAAh.
I'm gonna get my balls kicked in for this but here's, from my personal experience, here's what I think:

You can't stop this problem by simply banning it. Nothing lasts forever. Now, I'm gonna bring up examples that will DEFINITELY paint me in a very, very bad picture but bear with me here.

The same thing happens with guns, and crime. When you take away the right to bear firearms, you'll just end up with a greater influx of desire for guns. People who acquired their guns illegally end up being in a power scale much steeper than those unable to defend themselves. As with crime; say child marriage, the effect that it causes to Western society is akin to a tirade of uproars and controversial as opposed to the Middle East.

Now, CHILD MARRAIGE is definitely bad, that's a definite, but what I'm trying to bring up is an example: barring people from the usage of one thing just makes the thing even more dangerous and trying to police it lawfully, even worse. Excluding extreme cases like homicide, cannibalism, pedophillia (those can suck an STD-ridden cock for all I care), history has always shown that trying to burn something easily acquired and/or valuable just makes the craving and desire for it even higher. We definitely have no shortage of emperors burning books in feudal China only to end up with folks educating themselves in private in an even larger scale.

Now, things like ivory tusks and capybara semen; physical objects that can easily be detained and barred from the general public are exceptions to the rule. No matter how much a select elite crave it, as long as the officials aren't corrupt fucks, we can still curb the acquisition of it.

But slurs? This is a heavy subject.

The fact of the matter is that there are absolute fucks out there who genuinely believe the termination of one group of people (from both 4 sides of the political spectrum) isn't terrible, and that by doing so will end up with a better world to live in. In other words, the ever so prominent -cists and -phobics. Here's one thing: these guys will never stop coming. They are always there, and they will always be there. The world is so fucking huge that there will always be that one group of people against another, and if your group is a tiny minority taking less than 10% of the world population that's recently come into the public eye, you're definitely fucked in terms of acceptance, whether you like it or not.

Now, in small communities like SHF, this is definitely manageable. There's not much incentive in raising hell here. The most you'd get is a bunch of disapproving looks and a perma ban. They're not gonna get much out of the equivalent of a sizzling porta potty.

But in general terms? This yields a prospect much worse. See, racists/homophobes/etc.etc. aren't going away. In a sense, they are an unstoppable force. Using law against them wouldn't work either, because it's a slippery slope that leads to a dystopia of acceptance and purging whatever the hell that even indicates such a threat, whether intentional or not. We might keep ourselves from crossing the line, but as our governments have proven time and time again, unless we live in an fascist state with absolute loyalty and no compromise, having a system run by a bunch of dudes with differing opinions within a heirarchy is never effective. We're either gonna end up with a mini Big Brother scenario or another version of Obamacare.

Now I'm gonna thread of mighty thin ice here. I might get banned (again) for this but consider the trans suicide rate that has recently gone up to 50%. We might have all these hotlines and safe spaces in the internet for them but the reality of the situations is that it's always an uphill battle, and I say this with great shame. I say we need them to get thicker skins, and not in favour of the undesirable group. Simply telling they're accepted and shaming the bigots doesn't work at all. In time, erosion would've set in and when met with a constant barrage and exposure, sooner or later it's get to them. Banning away the language just makes the language even stronger. We can strengthen that wall, whilst removing the opposition. Society will always be filled with transphobes and opposing sides. It's an unstoppable force. The best action to take is to become the unmovable object. Instead of constantly telling them they're accepted and loved, they should be taught about the reality of their situation: yes, people do want you dead and convince you that you aren't who you are. But they can't do shit about it, and if they do, fight back with great force. Don't build stronger walls; train stronger men (and women and enbies, whatever the hell they call themselves these days).

Yes, the cultural impact and history and significance these slurs lead still very much exist and persist, but holding onto those histories would only serve to add more gunpowder to the opposition's cannons. Bringing up slavery and the history of racism whenever someone says a slur doesn't help to curb it; you'd only salt the wounds it creates. These fucks don't care, and bringing up the significance only makes it better for them. I say this not with moral authority, but with pessimism from personal experience. Too many times I've seen people break over an endless fight, only to lose sense and tip over the edge in the end. At the end, the good men become another casualty, and the mindless mobs trudge on to another victim.

Unironically speaking, the kids on Twitter who spam those "do you fart" fancams have the right idea; just the wrong target. Unreasonable force can only be met with their own medicine. A group looking to rile and aggravate will always look to net extreme reactions. Just don't give them that. And if they keep pushing, persist. Sooner or later, they will gravitate away to another target; rinse and repeat.

i understand that what I've typed above is an extreme view and I definitely have no issue if you disagree with me. But this is just an opinion from what I've seen. Acting smug and disapproving to the abyss only leads to the abyss eating you up. Spike yourself and deter the abyss. Humans aren't creatures of eternal endurance. All you could do is numb yourself to the screams and lower the significance of their words for the price of history and culture. The world is unfair; we can't act like it isn't, or that it should. Hoping for the best just doesn't cut it anymore, all you could do is prepare for the worst and expect disappointment from every turn.
 

minacia

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If you would excuse me, I would start answering this from the end.
Moderation staff does make a lot of wrong decisions. When the site grows big enough. Check webnovel, or twitch. Perhaps even Twitter or Facebook. Sure when you have a hundred or so active members it's easy to moderate, well, what about a thousand? Two thousand? You need more moderators. The nice persons are spreading thinner and thinner. Then you invite the person referred by a nice person, then the one that was referred by a nice person. And the problem is, the niceness is subjective.
About trolls being easily discovered. I'm not so sure about this, if you are confident in your own skills, well then you are right. If you didn't already notice, my English is far from perfect, so I have trouble understanding or writing about more difficult topics.
And now about dictatorship, and absolute impartiality not being needed. Well, what can I say about it? When at Rome, do as the Romans do. You are correct here.
It's just that I personally would leave this forum. I've came here precisely because there is enough freedom to talk about such topics as slurs. I don't know if I offended anyone, or said something bad. But what if a topic about politics or religion comes out next? Even the talk we had about genders. It's all controversial topics, and usually, they are banned. So that no one would get accidentally offended. Well, I'm sure didn't come here to offend anyone, I've come to talk and listen to other people's opinions. However, it's hard to do this when the topics I'm interested in would most likely be banned.
So, by allowing some people to enter, you as well making some others go away. But maybe I'm a jerk, and I deserve this, without me and some other people the forum here would flourish.
It's certainly the case that there's always a lot of moderation-related drama no matter where you go, but to me it's sort of a necessary evil compared to any of the alternatives.

For instance, if you consider Discord, you can either have a server with no moderators or a sever with moderators (it's an either-or decision). I think most people would agree that some semblance of moderation is preferred over having absolutely none, even if moderators can be flawed and make mistakes.

If you are an experienced administrator, then you might be experienced with ways to add transparency to the moderation system. For instance, needing moderators to check off with other moderators, appeal systems, etc. All of those procedures exist to maintain trust between a moderation team and an underlying userbase.

As for "trolls", I think it depends on your point of view. I can instantly spot someone faking being "snowflake" liberal because I am quite far left-leaning, and it's obvious at a blink of an eye when someone is faking their views or pretending to be LGBT when they're actually not. On the other hand, it would hard for me to spot a troll acting like a QAnon or "truther" because I'm not as familiar with their beliefs. In general though, it's pretty apparent when somebody is here to just cause trouble vs. they're here to read/write novels.

As for leaving because of political and religious discussion... :blob_pat_sad: I mean, I can relate. It happens to be a SHF forum rule, so in theory it's not supposed to be discussed. However, I also like talking about these things and I've had my own threads locked in NUF for being too political too. XD That said, I like Tony a lot and I know he wants the best for the site. I can understand if he wants to ban controversial topics if it causes more people to join or make the environment look more welcoming. At the end of the day, most websites are businesses, so it makes sense if he chooses to make certain business decisions.

Lastly, I don't think you're a jerk. I think you're very reasonable and we have a lot of disagreements, but overall I think you're nice.
 

SailusGebel

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Most of your problems here in this thread specifically, is that some of your responses were difficult to understand. The rest, was just people not bothering to take too much time to consider because it was obvious your stance was against theres and a line in the sand has long been drawn here.
Well, I'm aware of both of these problems. Which makes me even sadder.
 

Angry_Clown

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eventually
Bold of you to assume he'll last long enough for that to happen before he commits an honorable sudoku.
See I knew you're agree with me.
Wow, didn't know you were a breeding station. Good thing you are crying, apologizing, and licking the ground your betters tread, right?
Imagine getting destroyed in an argument so hard you have to use fake quotes in an attempt to insult the opposition.
 

minacia

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Yes-yes, I'm the supreme overlord that forces people to post drama and discuss bullshit claims and reply to each other. Sure. The drama only started after I forced YOU at gunpoint to post a reply to my message. It's all your fault now and you must repent.


Nobody "screams" drama, you overbaked metrosexual fruitcake.


You mean 30% were wondering if they're the only ones that mistook "f-slur" for "fuck" and "faggot" for a minced offal dish, 30% calling him out on his bullshit and made-up issue (including you), and the remaining 40% being unrelated general retardation inherent to human interaction? Sure, we can call that a "polite discussion", lmao.
Um... I just wanted to point this out (in case you didn't realize), but Tony doesn't read everything on the forums... but he definitely will be reading this thread. A lot of your responses seem to validate the things that the OP mentioned... so it's kind of like delivering this all straight to Tony's mailbox... and making it seem like an even bigger problem than it might have originally been...

I don't even have an opinion about you. I don't have an opinion about all the people on this forum. I don't know anyone here, but I do understand that not every one of you from my country, and that's enough for me.
Maybe you would be a great moderator, but you as well don't know me, right? What if I unintentionally violate some rules? Or if you start to know me better you decide to ban me? What if there are other moderators, that would be 'bad'?
Oh I only said "fun" because I'm sure I would eventually be categorized as a troll as well simply because I'm against all of the "words are violence" people that I find insufferable. I'm 85% convinced Tony is one of these people as well so I'm fairly sure if Mods were made, I would be gone soon enough.
I don't think either of you are trolls or would be banned for unintentionally violating rules.

I mean, this is just me comparing things to NUF, but I think both of you would be fine in NUF -- likewise I think you two would probably be fine here if Tony were to pick moderators anything like those in NUF.
 

SailusGebel

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It's certainly the case that there's always a lot of moderation-related drama no matter where you go, but to me it's sort of a necessary evil compared to any of the alternatives.

For instance, if you consider Discord, you can either have a server with no moderators or a sever with moderators (it's an either-or decision). I think most people would agree that some semblance of moderation is preferred over having absolutely none, even if moderators can be flawed and make mistakes.

If you are an experienced administrator, then you might be experienced with ways to add transparency to the moderation system. For instance, needing moderators to check off with other moderators, appeal systems, etc. All of those procedures exist to maintain trust between a moderation team and an underlying userbase.

As for "trolls", I think it depends on your point of view. I can instantly spot someone faking being "snowflake" liberal because I am quite far left-leaning, and it's obvious at a blink of an eye when someone is faking their views or pretending to be LGBT when they're actually not. On the other hand, it would hard for me to spot a troll acting like a QAnon or "truther" because I'm not as familiar with their beliefs. In general though, it's pretty apparent when somebody is here to just cause trouble vs. they're here to read/write novels.

As for leaving because of political and religious discussion... :blob_pat_sad: I mean, I can relate. It happens to be a SHF forum rule, so in theory it's not supposed to be discussed. However, I also like talking about these things and I've had my own threads locked in NUF for being too political too. XD That said, I like Tony a lot and I know he wants the best for the site. I can understand if he wants to ban controversial topics if it causes more people to join or make the environment look more welcoming. At the end of the day, most websites are businesses, so it makes sense if he chooses to make certain business decisions.

Lastly, I don't think you're a jerk. I think you're very reasonable and we have a lot of disagreements, but overall I think you're nice.
Well, thank you for your kind words.
And about wishing the best for the site. In the end, we don't know. Maybe he wants the site to grow to earn money from it? I'm a rather pessimistic person and don't believe in virtue. I always assume the worst possible outcome. In the end, this may not be true and it might be for the best.
But yeah, those who like to discuss politics and religion are now a minority themselves. And no one cares about this minority, because those topics long ago deemed toxic. It's sad. How can we achieve understanding if not through talking and reaching out to those who are not agreeing with you? Why divide the divided when you can at least try to communicate and change your views at least a little bit. And perhaps work for a unification. Though I understand there will be people who think that unification is bad and dividing is great, but that's not a topic I want to talk about at the moment.
 

Angry_Clown

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A lot of your responses seem to validate the things that the OP mentioned
Never once I used the words mentioned in the OP to refer to people, so I have no idea what the ever-living fuck you're talking about. My responces validate exactly nothing in the OP.
 
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