Plot holes

[CakeEatsNothing]

This post is a question towards authors who actually have comments and reviews. I mean you can answer it you aren't

Have you ever written a story and there was a certain plot hole you didn't realize was there.
And a commenter/reviewer realized that and talked about it and then someone else replied to that comment with their own logic and reasoning for that plot hole and didn't see it as a plothole?

 

[Biggest-Kusa-Out-There]

I had one comment ask about a 'missed detail' I intentionally left in the story. Which made me realize that maybe not every reader would see my intentions as foreshadowing for the future, or I have to explain it better.

 

[ArcadiaBlade]

Yes and I'm quite meticulous about it as well. I personally write my stories and tried so hard to cover each and every detail I possibly can and when someone points one plothole I didn't see, I get so worked up about it and it sometimes took me a week to fix a small plothole. Its really frustrating that you have to take a week off from writing to fix one mistake since trying to fix one, actually enlarges another hole in the story. Basically trying to tape one side of a water tank so that it doesn't leak, only for another leak to come to another side to it.

 

[EternalSunset0]

Beta reader does that for me.

 

[Hathnuz]

Yes, although it's not really crucial to the story. It's somewhat touching when they do that.

 

[lnv]

This post is a question towards authors who actually have comments and reviews. I mean you can answer it you aren't

Have you ever written a story and there was a certain plot hole you didn't realize was there.
And a commenter/reviewer realized that and talked about it and then someone else replied to that comment with their own logic and reasoning for that plot hole and didn't see it as a plothole?

This is precisely why editing/consistency checking takes more time then writing out chapters. And also for the reason that authors have to keep a large file of all the details to make sure there are as little plot holes as possible. Well, that is if you care about that (not all do)

But sure, every reader reads things their own way and interprets things their own way. Even a sentence phrased a certain way can lead to a reader misreading the intention. But that isn't a problem end of the day because no matter what, everyone reads a story differently and it is always interesting to read the reader's interpretations.

You can't cover every single little thing, there will always be things here and there. It is mostly about putting in the effort to make sure the plot holes aren't obvious and sticking in people's faces. And the fastest way to write a plot hole and not notice is when you try to write a trope in without thinking it fully through (cause you let your guard down since the trope was already thought out by others)

But yes, plenty of cases where people feel that there might be a plot hole, but 9/10 times, it is usually due to the reader not having enough information yet. Even more so since being 1st person, the narrator or who they speak to isn't always reliable. That isn't to say there weren't small plot holes that seep through from time to time. And yes, there are cases where other readers came up with their own counter logic.

Though again, I don't like to see any reader's interpretation as "wrong". Kind of like art where everyone sees their own meaning, the same applies to a story. So each interpretation is like its own alternate timeline and is quite exciting to read the comments on those as an author.

 

[K5Rakitan]

Not yet.

 

[Macrendil-Ysmir]

I have quite a few Arcs (& character development) planned out in advance and put effort into dropping subtle hints. Then I got some comments and DM's saying my MC is stupid for doing things the way he did. Well, excuse me that my MC does NOT immediately understand 110% everything around him and does NOT have an OP 'scan'-skill with which to objectively assess danger.
Same goes for some of the side-cast. I don't want to just rattle off a paragraph of backstory nobody cares about and much prefer gradually revealing things, like humans do when they interact with another over extended periods of time. Their motivations, past experiences and current actions are what determine those characters which may include 'plot-holes' until all is revealed.

 

[Ral]

I had one comment ask about a 'missed detail' I intentionally left in the story. Which made me realize that maybe not every reader would see my intentions as foreshadowing for the future, or I have to explain it better.

But sure, every reader reads things their own way and interprets things their own way. Even a sentence phrased a certain way can lead to a reader misreading the intention. But that isn't a problem end of the day because no matter what, everyone reads a story differently and it is always interesting to read the reader's interpretations.

I have quite a few Arcs (& character development) planned out in advance and put effort into dropping subtle hints. Then I got some comments and DM's saying my MC is stupid for doing things the way he did. Well, excuse me that my MC does NOT immediately understand 110% everything around him and does NOT have an OP 'scan'-skill with which to objectively assess danger.
Same goes for some of the side-cast. I don't want to just rattle off a paragraph of backstory nobody cares about and much prefer gradually revealing things, like humans do when they interact with another over extended periods of time. Their motivations, past experiences and current actions are what determine those characters which may include 'plot-holes' until all is revealed.

I'm sorry, but these aren't plot holes.

 

[gaylolis]

personally i don't really care about plot holes. i prefer to just write whatever i want, however i want.

if people complain to me like that, i just say just think of the story like a dream and it's not for everyone.

 

[yansusustories]

I haven't really encountered that scenario but I've had readers comment they found "plotholes" or things they deemed to be wrong. Somehow, it usually turns out to be neither.
For example, in my main story, people can project a different appearance. So some readers were quick to point out "But why doesn't this character just shift into a child to do x? This makes no sense!" Which yeah, that would have solved the situation at hand easily but, you see, the guy in question is deeply traumatized and would never in his life make himself appear as a child and there's a whole arc dealing with that problem later on. So no, it's not a plothole, readers were just too impatient. I did make the foreshadowing surrounding that a bit more on-the-nose when I got to the revision in the hope it would raise fewer eyebrows though. Not sure if it worked but giving the full reason earlier just wouldn't work with the story.
Then another time, I had somebody argue about the prices of cake with me because a slice was seriously underpriced in one of my short stories. Which would be less of a plothole but just plain wrong. And yeah, the price would be too low under normal circumstances but the reader somehow seemed to have forgotten or maybe skipped that when the place selling the cake was introduced, it was made clear that it's a sketchy one and throughout the story, it's also hinted that it isn't good either food-wise. So there was a completely reasonable explanation there as well.

There actually are some plotholes and even wrong stuff in my stories that I know off (and am slowly taking care of in the revision) but strangely enough, nobody actually points those out ...

 

[KoyukiMegumi]

I have had no one tell me about any plot holes yet.~

 

[BackWoodsJ_ACK]

I haven't been notified of one yet but if I did, I'd try to fix it and if I can't I'll try to find a way to weave it into the story.

 

[Ral]

For example, in my main story, people can project a different appearance. So some readers were quick to point out "But why doesn't this character just shift into a child to do x? This makes no sense!" Which yeah, that would have solved the situation at hand easily but, you see, the guy in question is deeply traumatized and would never in his life make himself appear as a child and there's a whole arc dealing with that problem later on. So no, it's not a plothole, readers were just too impatient. I did make the foreshadowing surrounding that a bit more on-the-nose when I got to the revision in the hope it would raise fewer eyebrows though. Not sure if it worked but giving the full reason earlier just wouldn't work with the story.

Well, if your story is serialized, then it actually is a plot hole, at that moment. The later on parts is still not published so there is really no explanation, yet. To a reader it would look like you have a plot hole and then try to patch it later.

This is more of improper setup. It is the same problem if your character uses a spell without clear indication or any indication at all that he have learned that spell before. And "foreshadowing" isn't really something used for doing this since its too vague (like say, you indicated that he practiced some spells but not really spell out what spells he learned). This actually requires to be quite on-the-nose. Sure you can then explain later that he did learn the spell before he used it thus patching the plot hole, but, you should have told your readers before, not after.

Though, in your story, why didn't you just let your character think of shifting into a child but show distaste of the idea? I mean, it is kinda dumb of your character to not think of the obvious solution. Show that your character did think of the idea (and thus, isn't dumb) but just dismisses it for some reason. That would actually add a layer of intrigue as the readers question now why he dismissed the idea and effectively setting up the reveal (foreshadowing).

Then another time, I had somebody argue about the prices of cake with me because a slice was seriously underpriced in one of my short stories. Which would be less of a plothole but just plain wrong. And yeah, the price would be too low under normal circumstances but the reader somehow seemed to have forgotten or maybe skipped that when the place selling the cake was introduced, it was made clear that it's a sketchy one and throughout the story, it's also hinted that it isn't good either food-wise. So there was a completely reasonable explanation there as well.

Yeah. Not a plot hole.

Maybe it would help if, like with the previous, your characters did take note of the fact. If your character doesn't take note of the cake's under-pricing, then it might indicate to the readers that nothing is wrong with the price. After all, if your character doesn't notice anything noteworthy about the cake's price, then the cake's price must be normal (or your character is unperceptive, dumb, or unknowledgeable). I mean, if you see something priced ridiculously cheap (or ridiculously expensive), you would take note of it. You would only inattentive on the price if it is reasonable.

There actually are some plotholes and even wrong stuff in my stories that I know off (and am slowly taking care of in the revision) but strangely enough, nobody actually points those out ...

Hah! You are lucky.

Maybe it is because your readers aren't very familiar with the stuff where the errors happens.

 

[morhamza]

It is funny but I wrote somewhere that my MC and his sister were identical twins (my MC is male) and until a reader pointed it out in the comments I had no idea. Not a plot hole, more of a stupid error that my readers pointed out to me.

 

[yansusustories]

Well, if your story is serialized, then it actually is a plot hole, at that moment. The later on parts is still not published so there is really no explanation, yet. To a reader it would look like you have a plot hole and then try to patch it later.

This is more of improper setup. It is the same problem if your character uses a spell without clear indication or any indication at all that he have learned that spell before. And "foreshadowing" isn't really something used for doing this since its too vague (like say, you indicated that he practiced some spells but not really spell out what spells he learned). This actually requires to be quite on-the-nose. Sure you can then explain later that he did learn the spell before he used it thus patching the plot hole, but, you should have told your readers before, not after.

Though, in your story, why didn't you just let your character think of shifting into a child but show distaste of the idea? I mean, it is kinda dumb of your character to not think of the obvious solution. Show that your character did think of the idea (and thus, isn't dumb) but just dismisses it for some reason. That would actually add a layer of intrigue as the readers question now why he dismissed the idea and effectively setting up the reveal (foreshadowing).

It's much more complicated in the story than that. I was just trying to give the quickest rundown here that I could to make it understandable for people who haven't read the story (in both cases but the first is too complicated and the other is just lacking some context since I figured it wasn't relevant). In the stories themselves, it does all make sense though. It is just that often, readers don't read between the lines or are way too impatient to get all the information. I mean there could always be alternative ways for the characters to go about things or alternative explanations for what is going on. Like, even in the situation with the spell, there would have been an explanation (or actually two) readily available just from the stuff already given (not a true one but a possible one). The readers could have made that one up by themselves.
Actually, I'm not quite sure if I would agree that something is a plothole and just gets patched later (or should be assumed to be one, at least) just because it hasn't been explained at a certain time in the story if the story isn't finished yet. A lot of things get revisited later on and I don't think we always need explanations for everything to the full extent immediately. That's just boring. And sometimes, you just have to wait a bit because some characters will keep their secrets because of reasons not yet known to the reader.

ETA: I'm not sure if this is because we're mostly writing online now and people think we're amateurs but when I was younger, getting to a point like this in a story where I would ask myself "why?" would prompt me to take a break and think harder (because I'd assume it's me who overlooked it) or continue reading until I found the answer somewhere in the book (if I am sure I didn't overlook the answer or any clues and it's going to come up later). Now though, I feel the kneejerk reaction of some readers (absolutely not all but I've definitely had some comments like that - even in cases where the answer was given just later in the very same chapter) is to assume the author doesn't know what they're doing whether that be in terms of research or writing itself. And they don't even stop to ask why if they have the author directly there to ask questions and just go with "This is wrong!"

 

[Ral]

It's much more complicated in the story than that. I was just trying to give the quickest rundown here that I could to make it understandable for people who haven't read the story (in both cases but the first is too complicated and the other is just lacking some context since I figured it wasn't relevant). In the stories themselves, it does all make sense though. It is just that often, readers don't read between the lines or are way too impatient to get all the information. I mean there could always be alternative ways for the characters to go about things or alternative explanations for what is going on. Like, even in the situation with the spell, there would have been an explanation (or actually two) readily available just from the stuff already given (not a true one but a possible one). The readers could have made that one up by themselves.

Of course you could always make up an explanation, but there is actually a need for the story itself to do the confirmation and not an external source. You see, even if you provide hints, there is still uncertainty. After all, hints aren't the only thing the author can provide, they can also give Red Herrings or use techniques like Unreliable Narrator where misguiding the readers is the goal. Your readers can't be entirely certain until the story confirms it is so.

Also, you have called it foreshadowing, yes? The nature of foreshadow is to be imperceptible. In fact, lots of authors do tricks to make the readers gloss over them. They are at their most effective when their significance only comes to the readers in hindsight. This is why I said that foreshadowing isn't used for the purpose you are using it.

And the reader did make things up themselves. The thing they made up?: Your protagonist is stupid. See the problem when you let your readers have to much leeway in make things up? They might make up things that you don't like or don't intend. You have to make it clear, in this case, or your readers might go into strange directions.

Actually, I'm not quite sure if I would agree that something is a plothole and just gets patched later (or should be assumed to be one, at least) just because it hasn't been explained at a certain time in the story if the story isn't finished yet. A lot of things get revisited later on and I don't think we always need explanations for everything to the full extent immediately. That's just boring. And sometimes, you just have to wait a bit because some characters will keep their secrets because of reasons not yet known to the reader.

Well, if the whole story is available at that moment then yes it is not a plot hole. The reader just haven't go to the part where the explanation is. But with a serial like this? There is no explanation yet. Sure, you might have it in your head, but for the readers, they would not find it no matter how they look, because it is not there. Heck, for a reader, they can't even be sure if the author actually has any explanation for it. That is one difference between a serial and a book.

And sure, you don't need to explain everything especially when it comes to secrets, motivations, backstory, etc. but that is not true to actions (or inaction). If a character do (or not do) something, there has to be an explanation for those. If your character ducked, it is because someone is punching him; if your character is scared, it is because the room is dark; if your character doesn't shift into a child, it's because of distaste or something. If these is no reason why they do (or doesn't do) these things, then things becomes really off. Why is your character ducking? Why is your character afraid? Why is your character failing to use the obvious solution? Their actions (or inaction) is detached from any causality and comes out of nowhere.

ETA: I'm not sure if this is because we're mostly writing online now and people think we're amateurs but when I was younger, getting to a point like this in a story where I would ask myself "why?" would prompt me to take a break and think harder (because I'd assume it's me who overlooked it) or continue reading until I found the answer somewhere in the book (if I am sure I didn't overlook the answer or any clues and it's going to come up later). Now though, I feel the kneejerk reaction of some readers (absolutely not all but I've definitely had some comments like that - even in cases where the answer was given just later in the very same chapter) is to assume the author doesn't know what they're doing whether that be in terms of research or writing itself. And they don't even stop to ask why if they have the author directly there to ask questions and just go with "This is wrong!"

Again, it is because they are not reading a book. Sure you could continue reading until you found the explanation… when you read a book (traditionally published, yes?), but for serials, where the chapter is written and published one by one, you can't continue reading and look for the answer, because those chapters (and in turn the explanations) aren't there.

And in the specific complaint in your story, it is more of your character not even considering the obvious, mundane solution. I don't think it would be a problem if your character did consider the solution but end up disposing it (because of some motivation like aversion of something). But to not even think of it? It is akin to this:

But yeah, there are times though (I'm guilty of it myself) that readers are quick to judge.

 

[ElliePorter]

I have seen it happen in other novels but i dont think it would happen in mine as it is smut.

 

[TheTrinary]

It was pretty minor, but I went and changed something and forgot about it, so I had characters like ten chapters later referencing a conversation that never happened. Oops. You need a ledger or something to keep track of everything sometimes.

 

[yansusustories]

Of course you could always make up an explanation, but there is actually a need for the story itself to do the confirmation and not an external source. You see, even if you provide hints, there is still uncertainty. After all, hints aren't the only thing the author can provide, they can also give Red Herrings or use techniques like Unreliable Narrator where misguiding the readers is the goal. Your readers can't be entirely certain until the story confirms it is so.

Also, you have called it foreshadowing, yes? The nature of foreshadow is to be imperceptible. In fact, lots of authors do tricks to make the readers gloss over them. They are at their most effective when their significance only comes to the readers in hindsight. This is why I said that foreshadowing isn't used for the purpose you are using it.

And the reader did make things up themselves. The thing they made up?: Your protagonist is stupid. See the problem when you let your readers have to much leeway in make things up? They might make up things that you don't like or don't intend. You have to make it clear, in this case, or your readers might go into strange directions.

Look, I get that you are trying to help but you're really not. Without knowing the story in question, you're just guessing blindly here and that's not going to work. Half of what you're saying isn't even applicable to my story. To be able to really try and give advice, you would need to either have read the story or need a much more detailed explanation which I didn't give because I was really just intending to share a short anecdote of "this kinda thing happened to me".
I am not looking for help because it's not a problem for me. The part in question makes sense in the story and I have enough checks in place for it to not be troubling to pretty much all readers except for maybe one or two. And I'm not worried about one or two people being confused by something because there are a multitude of reasons as to why that might be the case: They might be prone to overthinking (which is actually lovely because those people come up with the wildest shit which I love seeing!), maybe they skipped some stuff (readers do and if they don't get stuff because of that, that's on them, not me), or perhaps they are part of that group that doesn't actually read the English version I put up but a version in their language that they get out of a machine translation (had a reader like that berate me before for misusing pronouns which is an issue with MTL and not on my part but they were so sure I didn't know my pronoun game). Looking at the demographic reading online, it could even be that they are just lacking the language skills to get some of the intricacies so some parts of the story might stump them no matter what I do.
So yeah, I'm happy with the story as it is, I don't need advice, and if I needed it, I would make a new thread about it with a much more detailed explanation so that people would be in a position to give that advice in the first place. Thanks for trying anyway but it's really not needed in this case.

Well, if the whole story is available at that moment then yes it is not a plot hole. The reader just haven't go to the part where the explanation is. But with a serial like this? There is no explanation yet. Sure, you might have it in your head, but for the readers, they would not find it no matter how they look, because it is not there. Heck, for a reader, they can't even be sure if the author actually has any explanation for it. That is one difference between a serial and a book.

And sure, you don't need to explain everything especially when it comes to secrets, motivations, backstory, etc. but that is not true to actions (or inaction). If a character do (or not do) something, there has to be an explanation for those. If your character ducked, it is because someone is punching him; if your character is scared, it is because the room is dark; if your character doesn't shift into a child, it's because of distaste or something. If these is no reason why they do (or doesn't do) these things, then things becomes really off. Why is your character ducking? Why is your character afraid? Why is your character failing to use the obvious solution? Their actions (or inaction) is detached from any causality and comes out of nowhere.

Again, it is because they are not reading a book. Sure you could continue reading until you found the explanation… when you read a book (traditionally published, yes?), but for serials, where the chapter is written and published one by one, you can't continue reading and look for the answer, because those chapters (and in turn the explanations) aren't there.

And in the specific complaint in your story, it is more of your character not even considering the obvious, mundane solution. I don't think it would be a problem if your character did consider the solution but end up disposing it (because of some motivation like aversion of something). But to not even think of it?

The thing is that those comments usually come in when at least several volumes have been posted and the answer is long given, not while I am serializing the specific part they are troubled by. Also, even with a serial they could, like, wait for the explanation to come out instead of just assuming the author doesn't know shit? Alternatively, you can always ask why instead of making that assumption.
The assumption in question being their first (public) reaction is what I have a problem with. Not getting something (yet) is obviously okay and it's no shame to question the part and wonder why. Like, I also have readers who are like "I wasn't sure about x, is that going to come up later?" or something. It only becomes a problem when (and I've unfortunately had to see that happen as well) a reader doesn't understand something and then starts ... well, trying to shame the author for not doing their job or trying to make factual statements like "This is a plothole" when it's really not because there are several logical explanations readily available to them even if they can't think of the actual one that will be given later on.
I've legit had a reader who made the statement "No effort was put into this story" about a short story I spent hours researching for, two weeks drafting, that I revised and edited several times, poured hours into making the cover, days into translating and again editing it and remaking the cover for the edition in that language. So making a statement like "no effort was put into this" as if that's a fact is kinda rude, doubly so if you have the author right there and could ask but don't bother doing so but will bother telling them they weren't doing their job. And it's usually this kind of rudeness the readers pointing out "plotholes" display. At the very least, it is in my experience. Could be you have made different ones, that's valid but this is how I've experienced these things and that is the point where it becomes a problem to me. I just want people to think for a moment, then ask, and not outright accuse.