Reincarnation into another world is a poorly done and over used cliche.

[Cauldrons]

I guess you didn't care for A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court by Mark Twain.

My argument is the fact that authors use it as a crutch for no good reason and poorly develop it, I fail to see what dragging an old book into the argument will accomplish.

 

[Ral]

It's difficult yes, but there were a few who's willing to give it a try.

So why not do it?

My point is that, don't cut a budding author on the genre just because someone doesn't like his concept. His story would evolve over time, and it won't be helpful to the genre to have a few select themes on it.

Many did. And failed.

It is not as easy as you think.

And it is not because I don't like the concept, I just note that it is a concept that requires great skill in execution. That is what I expand on. That is why the note about Tap Water and Cardboard box. There is nothing wrong talking about those things but it requires a lot from the speaker to make the listener interested to what they are talking about.

And now we're left wondering why there's no fresh ideas on isekai...

And as people mentioned, there is nothing new in the sun. In fact, people have been complaining about the lack of fresh ideas in every medium and genre. There is an episode in South Park called Simpsons Already Did It that deals with an aspect of this issue.

The thing is, you need more than ideas to create a truly engaging story. You should be able to take those ideas and execute them well.

 

[binarysoap]

I personally chose the reincarnated into another world route instead of just normal fantasy so i can use references from Earth to describe things. For example, if i make up a new species which is basically a centaur except change the horse parts to a cat, I could describe it like that. However, if the MC describes it like that and is NOT reincarnated, how would she know about centaurs and cats when they don't exist? I'd have to then describe the new creature directly, which is going to be either more vague or extremely wordy.

Not only that, if the MC is a denizen of the original world, there are going to be things that won't be familiar at all to the readers, but the MC grew up with it all her life so it would be strange to describe said things.

The issues described here would probably be lessened if I wrote in third person instead of first, but even so, it would still ruins immersion.

Also, my MC isn't OP so that clearly isn't the reason.

 

[LostLibrarian]

The whole reincarnated into another world genre has two big advantages:
1) It's trending, especially in combination with game worlds or your cultivation story. Which makes it really easy to find your first readers and get feedback. Which is really motivating for new writers. They'll look at what is trending and often imitate it. And given that a lot of those stories get their share of the pie, there is still room for the next one.
2) As a premise, it mirrors the "transfer student cliché" from 15 years ago. You have an excuse to introduce new things to the character without writing awkward dialogue. It is new for both the character and the readers, so you can just info-dump whenever you want. Added on to that you can use knowledge from earth to describe things. It's easier to describe things if you can fall back on these comparisons.

Those two things together make for an easier entrance to writing. You don't have to plan and think as much, you get easy "out of jail" cards through "old knowledge" and such things. So I would say you find more "new writers" in these genres, so of course you find more "unskilled" or "copying/lazy" writers, too.


The whole "too overpowered too early" is more of a webnovel thing and less of an isekai thing to me. It's just easier to keep the readers entertained if you have one entertaining chapter after another...

 

[Discount_Blade]

... that basically is my title.

No it isnt. You make no reference to the writer in the title, only the genre.

 

[Deleted member 29316]

Many did. And failed.

It is not as easy as you think.

And it is not because I don't like the concept, I just note that it is a concept that requires great skill in execution. That is what I expand on. That is why the note about Tap Water and Cardboard box. There is nothing wrong talking about those things but it requires a lot from the speaker to make the listener interested to what they are talking about.

And as people mentioned, there is nothing new in the sun. In fact, people have been complaining about the lack of fresh ideas in every medium and genre. There is an episode in South Park called Simpsons Already Did It that deals with an aspect of this issue.

The thing is, you need more than ideas to create a truly engaging story. You should be able to take those ideas and execute them well.

I get your point. But then, once again, not everyone would hit the target in one try. It requires a lot of hit and miss before you perfect the aim for your goal. Should we tell them off because of that? Dealing with such theme requires great skill (and experience), yes, but should we discourage the new ones to try? If so, how'd they gain that skill and experience? While education is something, not everyone could afford it, and like in my country, not everyone is priviledged to access the internet to watch writing tutorials.

One of my answers is to try and write it.

However, like I said before, shutting down an author for something that one reader doesn't like is counterproductive to the genre. I'm not talking about you, but rather, what happened to me in RoyalRoad. What I got there isn't constructive criticism, but rather, a cancel-culture-like approach to my story.

And speaking of other forums, I also got advised that I shouldn't tag my work as isekai because many readers are averted to the genre. I mean, I do get their biases but why am I not to put isekai in my work when it's isekai?

Moreover, if we keep on thinking it's difficult to execute without even trying to do it, then nothing would really happen. Again, it's a hit and miss, and with many failures, someday you finally get to the final product.

Plus, rookie authors tend to experiment with things more than the learned ones. I'm a rookie author, and what I need is constructive criticism, not comments like 'If you change your character to the way I like, then I might consider reading your works again.'

But of course, it's the internet, so yeah...I better take down my work.

 

[lnv]

(I posted this on royal road's forums and I've gotten some feedback with it so I'm copy/pasting it here to see what people here think.)

This is a cliche many authors on this site(and other sites) use a crutch in order for them to lazily give their main character way too much power or knowledge they shouldn't have. This is saddening to me since I think the genre could have had much more potential than it has at this point, but people think of it as a gimmick to get their story started and nothing else. So I'm making the argument that if you are using the trope to only introduce the character/make them overpowered(What most people do) then you should just skip that step altogether and just have your main character originate in the magical world and instead of them dying and meeting god and getting unlimited power for literally no reason than to move the plot along, how about you incorporate unique elements like spirits or ancient technology that gift your character with unique power instead, as I feel this would be more organic than the alternative.

People don't understand just how brilliant someone from earth being stranded on a strange magical planet full of dangerous unknowns could be, but they don't capitalize on it. More specifically I think they focus on the wrong thing. I think the survival genre would actually pair up the best with the transported to another world genre. Think about it, It's dangerous enough being stuck in the woods on earth imagine how unique and interesting you could make it if you had more to work with. Instead of the main character being stuck in quicksand they are instead trapped in the clutches of a siren and are being dragged down and must think of a way out of the situation. Instead, most authors dump their character where they either find people or civilization right away or have way too much power that survival isn't an issue. I'm not saying that civilization in these types of novels is a bad thing but most authors make... idealized civilizations. Typically the most controversial thing authors are willing to put into their story is slavery(another poorly used and underdeveloped cliche.) and little else. Most authors make cities and towns with several cliches in minds such as an adventurer's guild and the typical street thug with everyone else the main character they meet being completely trusting of the main character and all the strange quirks and ideas they bring with them. None of the worlds created by authors have history to them they don't feel lived in and worst of all they don't drag you in with immersion.

I realize that for a lot of people this is a starting point for most of them and I shouldn't expect gold in an iron mine, but I just wish someone truly competent would come along and write a story that does the genre justice. No harem stupidity and no overpowered protagonist. Just someone trying to reimagine and overused and underdeveloped genre.

I think all authors who write isekai have mental issues... that goes double if they make them litrpgs...

That said, your beef seems to be with wish fulfillment, many people use web novels and light novels for escapism. So it is more of running away to another world rather than anything else. But the theme of another world being hostile isn't exactly new. As for why they don't make them originate in the other world, the answer is simple, the point is to give it closer to the perspective a reader can relate to. Even 1 word or line can change a reader's view of the same thing.

 

[LostLibrarian]

However, like I said before, shutting down an author for something that a reader doesn't like is counterproductive to the genre. I'm not talking about you, but rather, what happened to me in RoyalRoad. What I got there isn't constructive criticism, but rather, a cancel-culture-like approach to my story.

Honestly: JUST DO IT! (Okay. Enough with the bad memes).

If you want to write such story, just write it. I try the same (Isekai without OP and more drama/character focused) and while I often joke that it would do better with a girls love tag, it was easy to find a decent (or for me great) readership here, a lot of comments and reactions. Just stay with it and if RR has a problem with the story for whatever reason, just post it anywhere else. We have so many alternatives nowadays, you'll surely find the right audience.

You can only "change" a genre after you have written the story. There are enough people who'll hate slow stories if they read them one chapter/day but learn to love them when they can binge them after they heard good things. Some of the greatest sells or genre defining works failed, got reworked, failed again, before they were accepted and succeeded...

 

[LostLibrarian]

I think all authors who write isekai have mental issues... that goes double if they make them litrpgs...

Now I want to hear your view of gender bender and/or girls love added on top of it :D

 

[Deleted member 29316]

Honestly: JUST DO IT! (Okay. Enough with the bad memes).

If you want to write such story, just write it. I try the same (Isekai without OP and more drama/character focused) and while I often joke that it would do better with a girls love tag, it was easy to find a decent readership. Just stay with it and if RR has a problem with the story for whatever reason, just post it anywhere else. We have so many alternatives nowadays, you'll surely find the right audience.

You can only "change" a genre after you have written the story. There are enough people who'll hate slow stories if they read them one chapter/day but learn to love them when they can binge them after they heard good things. Some of the greatest sells or genre defining works failed, got reworked, failed again, before they were accepted and succeeded...

Exactly, my point!

Well, bad experiences aside, I continued writing it, now completed 5 volumes and with a lot more coming.

I am also developing the story as I go along, adding the feedbacks I received whenever applicable.

 

[Nakakure]

I am using this genre as training, but it seem i need to work on my grammar instead.

 

[YuriDoggo]

no u

 

[gaylolis]

i think it'd be interesting if the isekai is inspired by LSD hallucinations, like this one.

 

[Ral]

owever, like I said before, shutting down an author for something that one reader doesn't like is counterproductive to the genre. I'm not talking about you, but rather, what happened to me in RoyalRoad. What I got there isn't constructive criticism, but rather, a cancel-culture-like approach to my story.

I'm not shutting anyone down. I mean, if you said that playing the violin is difficult or writing a book is hard, are you trying to shut down anyone who wants to play a violin or write a book? No. You are just stating the facts. That is just the nature of things. You are just informing them of what they are going to face. If people shuts down just because you tell them the truth, it is their choice.

Moreover, if we keep on thinking it's difficult to execute without even trying to do it, then nothing would really happen. Again, it's a hit and miss, and with many failures, someday you finally get to the final product.

True. That is why it is difficult. But as you said, you have to keep going. The decision to do that is up to you. If you give up after facing difficulties, well, it is your choice.

And if a person stops trying things because it's difficult, then the problem is them.

Plus, rookie authors tend to experiment with things more than the learned ones.

That is where you are wrong. Rookies tend to just copy stuff. I mean, most writers in SH and RR are rookies. Guess what they tend to write? What most rookie artist tries to draw? Popular anime characters.

You actually start to make experiments when you become comfortable with the medium. Do you think Picasso developed his unique art style while he was a rookie? No. He started with a typical realistic style and develop his style only after he becomes skilled with the craft.

It is the learned ones that experiments more. It is the people who are learned in chemistry that does many experiments with chemistry. It is the learned ones in technology that does experiments with technology. It is them who try to venture into new grounds not the unlearned ones.

I'm a rookie author, and what I need is constructive criticism, not comments like 'If you change your character to the way I like, then I might consider reading your works again.'

And you also need to be able to take criticism. If you are easily troubled by stuff like this, then you would have bigger problem sooner. This thing is only going to get worse when you are not a rookie anymore. If you take your writing to the professional area, the criticisms would be harsher.

 

[Cosmic]

A lot of what I wanted to say has already been said: It's about how the trope/genre is used. Of course, there's a lot of bad stuff, 90% of all stuff is bad. It's successful and easy so people copy and quality drops. Bad writers will often fall into the pitfalls of the genre/trope. It's because the community and therefore audience are those that seek wish fulfillment and escapism. You got to bring something new and unique. You got to grab interest. It's not bad to follow cliches/tropes. You just got to comb through, seek the good ones out, or just accept it. Just keep going with it as you'll find an audience eventually. Yadda, Yadda.

The thing I want to add to this discussion though is Expectation Management and Character Audience Distancing.

It's something I feel every author especially ones that want to post their story online on these kinds of sites (SH, RR, SB, etc.) should learn and know about.

I haven't read your story so it might really just be a case of readers not liking something because it wasn't to their taste and because they didn't care to really see it for what it was. Still, I want to talk about Expectation Management and Character Audience Distancing because it's something I don't hear much about it and because I would like to share it with other people.

When you read traditional, fictional literature like the non-escapism kind you'd read for school, you understand that the main character is just a character. He/She/They/It is separate from the author AND you, the reader. Furthermore, you know the author isn't trying to satisfy you and always make you, the reader, happy. They're trying to express creative ideas, convey some theme or social commentary, or share some sort of emotion, life experience, etc.

With web novels especially the escapism kind that this and many related sites are saturated with, (some) readers don't have that understanding and separation. Because they read for that enjoyment, that specially catered to them story. That's why they browse such sites.

If an author is going to write a story that goes against what the usual audience expects and wants, they need to really really make it clear what the story is about. After all, it's not on you if you tagged your story as harem BL smut and the reader still clicks/ignore those tags and then proceeds to complains that it's harem BL smut. It said so right on "the box."

It's kinda like with movie trailers. If the movie is completely different from the trailers, people will be upset. The problem is that with web novels, the movie trailer for most readers is the other novels on the site and the entire community itself. You need to make sure the thing on their mind is your "trailer" because that's the thing you control. You need to control what expectations they have.

One way to control it is by snapping your readers out of that escapism seeking mindset even if only temporarily because then they'll view it like an actual story rather than a tailored experience/drug.

One way is to establish that the main character is their own person. You have to bash it into the reader's skulls that the MC is not there to act as their surrogate/placeholder. You have to distance the MC from the audience. This can definitely be challenging if you want the reader to relate or see themselves in the MC.

If you want to tell a survival story with a normal/everyday modern person as the MC, you're really going to have to show the level of normal the MC is. Everyone knows a normal modern-day human is weak and can do jack shit in a fantasy death world. However, some of your readers, the escapism filled ones, are gonna use themselves as the point of reference for normal. Or more specifically, the more capable version of themselves in their heads mixed with all the other "normal guy" MCs they've read.

You should, in the beginning, really show how out of their element the MC really is. Show a big monster destroy miles of trees and the MC hiding in a hole. If your MC is going to be weak for most of the story, really double down and show that through the MC's thoughts or the MC acknowledging that they are weak. If the MC is an otaku and familiar with Isekai, maybe bring up that they aren't some Isekai protagonist that knows how to build a steam engine or how in real life, just being a "nice guy" isn't gonna get you chicks.

To manage their expectations and snap away their tunnel vision stand-in MC escapism seeking mindset, you could try to really show the individualness of the MC or really double down on the normality of them. Start off the MC's introduction by bringing a bit of reality into it.

For example, have your MC think about a very specific instance in their childhood. The MC remembers his fifth-grade classmate, Timone, and how for some reason Tim brought a bag of flour to class, and somehow the bag got dropped, exploded, and got everyone completely covered in flour for the rest of the day. It's a "childhood memory." It's something extremely normal. Everyone has them, but I doubt everyone would have a Timone flour bomb memory. You could also have the MC talk about his 2nd place medal in a yoyo competition. It's like when an MC references a series/genre you don't watch and starts to go in-depth about it. You don't understand or relate so you start to separate yourself from the MC. Maybe have them mention their family, by name too, because most Isekai MCs don't do that.

Stories are just lies that people chose to listen to and sometimes believe in, even if only temporarily. An author needs to be a good liar and know how to manipulate his/her readers.

 

[Deleted member 29316]

I'm not shutting anyone down. I mean, if you said that playing the violin is difficult or writing a book is hard, are you trying to shut down anyone who wants to play a violin or write a book? No. You are just stating the facts. That is just the nature of things. You are just informing them of what they are going to face. If people shuts down just because you tell them the truth, it is their choice.

True. That is why it is difficult. But as you said, you have to keep going. The decision to do that is up to you. If you give up after facing difficulties, well, it is your choice.

And if a person stops trying things because it's difficult, then the problem is them.

That is where you are wrong. Rookies tend to just copy stuff. I mean, most writers in SH and RR are rookies. Guess what they tend to write? What most rookie artist tries to draw? Popular anime characters. What rookie painters try to paint? They try to paint a typical realistic style.

You actually start to make experiments when you become comfortable with the medium. Do you think Picasso developed his unique art style while he was a rookie? No. He started with a typical realistic style and develop his style only after he becomes skilled with the craft.

It is the learned ones that experiments more. It is the people who are learned in chemistry that does experiments with chemistry. It is the learned ones in technology that does experiments with technology. It is them who try to venture into new grounds.

Ah yes, I'm pretty much used to criticisms by now. By the way, thanks for your insight.

Well, in my experience and in my students' class, there were a lot of rookie (aspiring) authors who were trying out new stuff, so I guess it depends on the experience and the people we're with. I'm not going to debate about rookies and veterans here more than what I have to say; I guess I managed to get my point across...which is not to shut down authors who were trying out something else.

And you also need to be able to take criticism. If you are easily troubled by stuff like this, then you would have bigger problem sooner. This thing is only going to get worse when you are not a rookie anymore. If you take your writing to the professional area, the criticisms would be harsher.

And about criticism, well yes, it's true that we have to be able to take criticism. However, not every criticism is valid, and as someone from another thread said, criticisms are all biased based on the person's tastes. You just have to know what to take, and for that, you need to have your goals and focus for your work.

And RR reviewers aren't really helpful with feedback and stuff. They just say what they want to say, without actually going down the details of why they did say that. Result? A lot of authors were now averted in posting @ RR.

In any case, thank you for your points raised. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[D4isuke]

As an author and big fan of "quality" isekai such as Konosuba, Re Zero, Tanya, and Slime, I would say that this can be hasty generalization in regards to the overused genre of isekai (judging by the title of it). It's like I hate all battle shonen in anime and I hate all typical "coincidental" shows in k-drama, but I truly want not to think about it. Let's say, I hate the "most" of it. Yeah... it can be, and it's true subjectively. We all got tired of harem shit, Jesus-kun MC, black-and-white morality shit, and generic "Slay the Demon King" goal because it all happened in games and some western medias too.

In order to write a better isekai and MC themselves, try to think about something that MC from his/her previous world will change their life in the new world. "From boring to exciting" can be generic, but think of it outside the box. What and how makes it boring? What and how makes it exciting?

Let's try to add spice around here.

Take for a example of Re: Zero

Yes, my man, Natsuki Subaru, thought of himself as a protagonist-kun who will save the world one day with magic... but in order to save the world (or your friends perhaps) you have to kill yourself, go back to the past and fix the things from your past, and also the price would be trauma while your reward will be your recalling mistakes that should hint you to do better—which makes it a good "time-travel" fiction. To fix the present is to fix the past, and to fix the future is to fix the present. That's how the mechanics of reality works.

So if y'all writers want to write a better isekai, you must think of this at first: "How am I supposed to make MC feel human in a sense of their own selfish desire and social connection?" and add it with proper sense. This will be my hint to write better story of isekai.

 

[Ral]

I guess I managed to get my point across...which is not to shut down authors who were trying out something else.

But shutting down authors is not what I did. Why do you insist on that?

And about criticism, well yes, it's true that we have to be able to take criticism. However, not every criticism is valid, and as someone from another thread said, criticisms are all biased based on the person's tastes. You just have to know what to take, and for that, you need to have your goals and focus for your work.

Well, true.

But, an important thing to note here is the difference between a reader review compared to other form of criticism especially critique which is what most people seems to mean when they say criticism.

Reader Reviews tends to be for the benefit of other readers and not for the author. Let us take for example those movie reviews. Are these reviews something that these reviewers made for the movie makers to improve the movie? No. In the first place, these reviews are done after the movie is made (this is actually the same case for reviews). Then for what are they then? They are actually for the movie goers. To help them make the decision if they want to watch the movie(or book) or not.

Then there is critique. It is something directed towards the creator and not to other audience. They are also done by people who are knowledgeable of the field because only those who have knowledge of the field provide help. They are the most likely person to know what to do and how to fix things.

And RR reviewers aren't really helpful with feedback and stuff. They just say what they want to say, without actually going down the details of why they did say that. Result? A lot of authors were now averted in posting @ RR.

Nor are SH reviews. Well, they all tend to say that this story is great but they similarly unhelpful in improving your craft.

Still, with feedback, it is supposed to be a back and forth thing. You are supposed to ask for clarifications and details. Then the reviewer would tell you things and you can then ask them again. So on and so forth until you are satisfied with the information you get. Just receiving a review and just leaving it that isn't really the best way to do things.

And as I said, reviews tends to be for other readers. You can still ask them for more details and stuff but understand that these kind of reviews aren't meant for you. There aren't going to be details or tips to help you improve your story.

Actually, experienced writers don't depend on reviews. They use beta-readers, writing buddies, even professional critics and such to help them analyze their work.

In any case, thank you for your points raised. Let's agree to disagree.

Yeah. Agree to disagree.

 

[Deleted member 29316]

But shutting down authors is not what I did. Why do you insist on that?

I didn't. If you'd come back on my thread replies, I didn't say 'you' in anything that concerns shutting down. Maybe it's because of my explanation, but what I'm referring to with the word 'you' is the general attitude of the readers to the new ideas in certain genres, not only in isekai. I've been careful not to point back at you, because I know myself that you're only explaining your points.

If it sounds like that, then it's definitely not my intention. Again, I'm talking about the others who did the reviews, not you.

Well, true.

But, an important thing to note here is the difference between a reader review compared to other form of criticism especially critique which is what most people seems to mean when they say criticism.

Reader Reviews tends to be for the benefit of other readers and not for the author. Let us take for example those movie reviews. Are these reviews something that these reviewers made for the movie makers to improve the movie? No. In the first place, these reviews are done after the movie is made (this is actually the same case for reviews). Then for what are they then? They are actually for the movie goers. To help them make the decision if they want to watch the movie(or book) or not.

Yep, but what I'm pointing out is the way that some readers air their reviews on an author's work. It's like their entitled to have something changed just because it's not to their liking. I don't know if you've experienced something like that, nor do I disqualify you for saying anything if you hadn't. But in any case, it's not a good experience.

Then there is critique. It is something directed towards the creator and not to other audience. They are also done by people who are knowledgeable of the field because only those who have knowledge of the field provide help. They are the most likely person to know what to do and how to fix things.

Nor are SH reviews. Well, they all tend to say that this story is great but they similarly unhelpful in improving your craft.

Still, with feedback, it is supposed to be a back and forth thing. You are supposed to ask for clarifications and details. Then the reviewer would tell you things and you can then ask them again. So on and so forth until you are satisfied with the information you get. Just receiving a review and just leaving it that isn't really the best way to do things.

And as I said, reviews tends to be for other readers. You can still ask them for more details and stuff but understand that these kind of reviews aren't meant for you. There aren't going to be details or tips to help you improve your story.

Again, I guess I have made myself clear in this thread reply. I'm referring to those readers who'd criticize for the heck of it. Some reviews about a work only tend to do disservice to the genre by shutting down different ideas, or themes (if we're getting technical with it). RoyalRoad is infamous for that, and it's not only me who experienced such treatment.

I did not say SH reviews are helpful...if the work did have reviews at all.

Actually, experienced writers don't depend on reviews. They use beta-readers, writing buddies, even professional critics and such to help them analyze their work.

Yeah. Agree to disagree.

I'm not a professional author, nor do I intend to become one. I only write because I'm having fun with it, and so are my students. I do have writing buddies, and they gave me important insights as to how is my work. But then again, my experience in using RoyalRoad platform isn't a good one, and it's the only bad experience I had with online publishing (considering I uploaded my work to other sites and got criticized there as well).

What's funny is that I'm not the only one who experienced that.

I hope I'm finally clear with this.

 

[Ral]

I'm not a professional author, nor do I intend to become one. I only write because I'm having fun with it, and so are my students. I do have writing buddies, and they gave me important insights as to how is my work. But then again, my experience in using RoyalRoad platform isn't a good one, and it's the only bad experience I had with online publishing (considering I uploaded my work to other sites and got criticized there as well).

You don't need to be professional to avail these services.

What's funny is that I'm not the only one who experienced that.

Yeah. RR is kinda harsh.