The term "Mary Sue & Gary Stu" is a major pet peeve of mine TBH

[MadmanRB]

I am unsure if this kind of topic is appropriate or not but here it goes:

I am getting sick of hearing the term "Mary Sue" being thrown around these days, yes "Gary Stu" is used too but not so much as the former.
Really it's impossible to make any character these days without this term being flaunted about especially when a female character is involved.
Rey from Star Wars comes to mind here, yet James Bond or Goku get a free pass.
Its infuriating especially when people forget about the original Mary sue and why she was created in the first place as a parody of a Star Trek fan character archetype who got the entire crew to fall in love with her.
But its become too broad now any character who has even the slightest hint of having more than one friend, or has powers (especially females) or anything typically associated with the term becomes a Sue by default in modern pop culture.
Now it seems like the only way to pass the snuff test is to make your character a worthless friendless loser because that is "realism" or show the audience 10-hour training montages.
And look I personally do my best as a writer to hone my characters in to the best of my abilities and do give them caps to their powers, so I don't get the "Sue" accusation but still I am bound to be called out by some idiot with a bone to pick complaining about my characters not being realistic despite my story having its strong rules and caps.
Still the term has become too much of a catch-all and translates to "I hate this character they must be a Sue!"

 

[CadmarLegend]

I am unsure if this kind of topic is appropriate or not but here it goes:

I am getting sick of hearing the term "Mary Sue" being thrown around these days, yes "Gary Stu" is used too but not so much as the former.
Really it's impossible to make any character these days without this term being flaunted about especially when a female character is involved.
Rey from Star Wars comes to mind here, yet James Bond or Goku get a free pass.
Its infuriating especially when people forget about the original Mary sue and why she was created in the first place as a parody of a Star Trek fan character archetype who got the entire crew to fall in love with her.
But its become too broad now any character who has even the slightest hint of having more than one friend, or has powers (especially females) or anything typically associated with the term becomes a Sue by default in modern pop culture.
Now it seems like the only way to pass the snuff test is to make your character a worthless friendless loser because that is "realism" or show the audience 10-hour training montages.
And look I personally do my best as a writer to hone my characters in to the best of my abilities and do give them caps to their powers, so I don't get the "Sue" accusation but still I am bound to be called out by some idiot with a bone to pick complaining about my characters not being realistic despite my story having its strong rules and caps.
Still the term has become too much of a catch-all and translates to "I hate this character they must be a Sue!"

Tbh, I've never heard of it.... like many other sayings....

 

[Ai-chan]

I am unsure if this kind of topic is appropriate or not but here it goes:

I am getting sick of hearing the term "Mary Sue" being thrown around these days, yes "Gary Stu" is used too but not so much as the former.
Really it's impossible to make any character these days without this term being flaunted about especially when a female character is involved.
Rey from Star Wars comes to mind here, yet James Bond or Goku get a free pass.
Its infuriating especially when people forget about the original Mary sue and why she was created in the first place as a parody of a Star Trek fan character archetype who got the entire crew to fall in love with her.
But its become too broad now any character who has even the slightest hint of having more than one friend, or has powers (especially females) or anything typically associated with the term becomes a Sue by default in modern pop culture.
Now it seems like the only way to pass the snuff test is to make your character a worthless friendless loser because that is "realism" or show the audience 10-hour training montages.
And look I personally do my best as a writer to hone my characters in to the best of my abilities and do give them caps to their powers, so I don't get the "Sue" accusation but still I am bound to be called out by some idiot with a bone to pick complaining about my characters not being realistic despite my story having its strong rules and caps.
Still the term has become too much of a catch-all and translates to "I hate this character they must be a Sue!"

Ai-chan doesn't know what you're talking about. Mary Sue still means 'a genius character who can do everything, is good at everything, knows everything, has no flaw, solves all problems that other characters struggle on her own and saves the day despite impossible situations every time'. If someone calls your character a Mary Sue yet this definition doesn't apply, then ignore them because they probably don't know what a Mary Sue is. Ai-chan has never heard of anyone using the term Mary Sue differently.

Ai-chan does not watch the new Star Wars (because they're shit) but from what others said, Ai-chan agrees that Rey is a Mary Sue.
- Genius character who can do everything - Check
- Is good at everything - Probably, check
- Knows everything - Probably, the amount of stuff she pulled out of her ass is strange, check
- Has no flaw - Definite check
- Solves all problems on her own - Check
- Sweeps in and saves the day - Check

Now let's talk about Goku
- Genius character who can do everything - Definitely not, he's quite stupid when it doesn't involve fighting
- Is good at everything - Definitely not. Sure he can copy other people's techniques, but Kuririn can do that too
- Knows everything - Nope, we know about things at the same time he knew about things
- Has no flaw - Definitely not. Sure, he eventually became the strongest person in the galaxy, but the road there was paved with defeats
- Solves all problems on her own - No, not really. He needed Buruma for brains and he depended a lot on his team, mostly Kuririn.
- Sweeps in and saves the day - Check, this usually happened.

So you see, while Rey fits the description (Ai-chan depends on other people's stories because Ai-chan doesn't watch the movies), Son Goku from Dragonball only absolutely fits one of the requirements to be considered a Mary Sue.

James Bond is definitely not a Mary Sue. Who told you that? He knows how to shoot, how to seduce women, how to rig electronics and how to do his job. He was trained for it. He was the best in the agency, so of course he knew more than others. Other than that, he depended entirely on Q's gadgets. It's Q (and Q's team) who is the genius of the franchise. James Bond was just trained to be good at his job.

 

[hauntedwritings]

Allow me to rant about what a Mary Sue is.
A Mary Sue character is someone who has, in essence, reached their potential. The fact that you consider that there exists a cap for your character, implies that your character will no longer be improving itself. The non-Mary Sue way to do it, in my view, is to ensure that the journey of improvement begins on your first page, and implies continued improvement after the last.

Now lets talk about improvement. There are two things to consider. The first is:
-Powers. Yes, if your character reaches their maximum fighting ability, and especially if it does so quickly, then it will most likely be considered Mary Sue.
Now the second, and more important (yet often forgotten) point:
-Personality. No human is perfect, and makes the right desicions every time. Therefore, somewhere when you create your character, you need to introduce flaws. Flaws that the character grows out of / overcomes. If you want to be creative about it, then it's also good to avoid the typical ones (like the character is pissed with everyone and everything).
Edit: Why that isn't considered a good flaw, is because it's not a personality flaw, but an attitude problem. I like to differentiate the two.

The easiest way to know your character isn't Mary Sue, is if your character gets their backside handed to them from time to time, and if they come into conflict with their allies.

 

[CadmarLegend]

Allow me to rant about what a Mary Sue is.
A Mary Sue character is someone who has, in essence, reached their potential. The fact that you consider that there exists a cap for your character, implies that your character will no longer be improving itself. The non-Mary Sue way to do it, in my view, is to ensure that the journey of improvement begins on your first page, and implies continued improvement after the last.

Now lets talk about improvement. There are two things to consider. The first is:
-Powers. Yes, if your character reaches their maximum fighting ability, and especially if it does so quickly, then it will most likely be considered Mary Sue.
Now the second, and more important (yet often forgotten) point:
-Personality. No human is perfect, and makes the right desicions. Therefore, somewhere when you create your character, you need to introduce flaws. Flaws that the character grows out of / overcomes. If you want to be creative about it, then it's also good to avoid the typical ones (like the character is pissed with everyone and everything).

The easiest way to know your character isn't Mary Sue, is if your character gets their backside handed to them from time to time, and if they come into conflict with their allies.

Thank you for the lecture Senpai!

 

[WasatchWind]

I am unsure if this kind of topic is appropriate or not but here it goes:

I am getting sick of hearing the term "Mary Sue" being thrown around these days, yes "Gary Stu" is used too but not so much as the former.
Really it's impossible to make any character these days without this term being flaunted about especially when a female character is involved.
Rey from Star Wars comes to mind here, yet James Bond or Goku get a free pass.
Its infuriating especially when people forget about the original Mary sue and why she was created in the first place as a parody of a Star Trek fan character archetype who got the entire crew to fall in love with her.
But its become too broad now any character who has even the slightest hint of having more than one friend, or has powers (especially females) or anything typically associated with the term becomes a Sue by default in modern pop culture.
Now it seems like the only way to pass the snuff test is to make your character a worthless friendless loser because that is "realism" or show the audience 10-hour training montages.
And look I personally do my best as a writer to hone my characters in to the best of my abilities and do give them caps to their powers, so I don't get the "Sue" accusation but still I am bound to be called out by some idiot with a bone to pick complaining about my characters not being realistic despite my story having its strong rules and caps.
Still the term has become too much of a catch-all and translates to "I hate this character they must be a Sue!"

I don't like using the term Mary Sue just because if the negativity it's gained.

Rey is a bad character. She is good at scavenging, at fighting, at fixing ships, at lightsaber fighting, and more. It is not because she is a woman. Leia is an awesone character in the original trilogy because she has good lines, doesn't take nonsense from people, but we see that she doesn't have all the answers.

She feels like a real person who doesn't know what to do, rather than an actor playing out her required role in the plot.

I don't like super depressing stories either - but your story and character doesn't have to be that. Give them flaws in ability or emotional control. Give reasons for their flaws and talents to exist.


In the story Mistborn, Vin takes to the magical art of Allomancy well, but we see her practicing it a lot. She likes practicing it because it makes her feel free. At the same time, she is struggling with trusting those around her after an extremely difficult childhood, living on the streets. She is afraid that she will be betrayed constantly. So when we see her grow that is satisfying and interesting.

Rey is not interesting because it never felt like she grew. Another often attacked character in the sequels, Rose, is bad mostly because she was given just a bad character. I think her casting was good, but lines like "we'll win not by attacking what we hate, but protecting what we love," sound really stupid.

II'll point out that while there are people who have a dislike of female characters, a lot of the drama with Rey and Rose was exacerbated by journalists branding anyone who didn't like them as misogynistic.

Personally, I hate every character in the sequels but Kylo, and they messed him up pretty bad too.

Just give your characters a good balance, and think through if they would have the skills to do what they are. Seeing a character struggle is interesting and relatable, and then when they learn to overcome their weaknesses, or accept them, it becomes much more powerful.

 

[Reisinling]

Honestly, I think there is 1 more aspect to Mary

Ai-chan doesn't know what you're talking about. Mary Sue still means 'a genius character who can do everything, is good at everything, knows everything, has no flaw, solves all problems that other characters struggle on her own and saves the day despite impossible situations every time'. If someone calls your character a Mary Sue yet this definition doesn't apply, then ignore them because they probably don't know what a Mary Sue is. Ai-chan has never heard of anyone using the term Mary Sue differently.

Ai-chan does not watch the new Star Wars (because they're shit) but from what others said, Ai-chan agrees that Rey is a Mary Sue.
- Genius character who can do everything - Check
- Is good at everything - Probably, check
- Knows everything - Probably, the amount of stuff she pulled out of her ass is strange, check
- Has no flaw - Definite check
- Solves all problems on her own - Check
- Sweeps in and saves the day - Check

Now let's talk about Goku
- Genius character who can do everything - Definitely not, he's quite stupid when it doesn't involve fighting
- Is good at everything - Definitely not. Sure he can copy other people's techniques, but Kuririn can do that too
- Knows everything - Nope, we know about things at the same time he knew about things
- Has no flaw - Definitely not. Sure, he eventually became the strongest person in the galaxy, but the road there was paved with defeats
- Solves all problems on her own - No, not really. He needed Buruma for brains and he depended a lot on his team, mostly Kuririn.
- Sweeps in and saves the day - Check, this usually happened.

So you see, while Rey fits the description (Ai-chan depends on other people's stories because Ai-chan doesn't watch the movies), Son Goku from Dragonball only absolutely fits one of the requirements to be considered a Mary Sue.

James Bond is definitely not a Mary Sue. Who told you that? He knows how to shoot, how to seduce women, how to rig electronics and how to do his job. He was trained for it. He was the best in the agency, so of course he knew more than others. Other than that, he depended entirely on Q's gadgets. It's Q (and Q's team) who is the genius of the franchise. James Bond was just trained to be good at his job.

I think there is one more aspect to Mary Sue characters- everyone only thinks about them and their awesomeness. No idea if it applies to SW movies, haven't seen them (I didn't like the old ones so saw no reason to watch the new ones :P).

What I mean about that, especially in literature, is that when we have chapter from other peoples PoV, even when they are doing something on the other side of the world, they are always comparing everyone to MC, or thinking about MC etc. As if the whole universe revolved around that person- actually even worse, it's as if the whole world was worshipping them, but we pretend they don't, and that they are completly normal relationships.
Examples from novels I'm reading in spite of that: Blue Core (actually, there we could argue for a pair of Mary Sues, of Shayma and Blue, though the first one is more of a waifu sue), A Demon Lord’s Tale: Dungeons, Monster Girls, and Heartwarming Bliss, and of course Wortenia Senki
From the old timey paper books there was terrible book pretending to be "I,Robot" (other authors work in the universum) but I forgot its title and it was so bad I threw it away, with stereotypical Mary Sue character, like to the T.

there was one novel translation that I actually dropped because of that, but I forgot what it was... I only remember the main heroes name was Marco, and he was like a war hero that died and came back in the same world?


If we were to go with a classical character that might be Mary Sue.. I think I would go with Sherlock Holmes more than James Bond. Especially, especially in the movie versions/bbc series (yeah, he is usually portrayed as an alcoholic/asshole but this "Flaw" is only there to make them look even cooler)

 

[LimitBound]

I am unsure if this kind of topic is appropriate or not but here it goes:

I am getting sick of hearing the term "Mary Sue" being thrown around these days, yes "Gary Stu" is used too but not so much as the former.
Really it's impossible to make any character these days without this term being flaunted about especially when a female character is involved.
Rey from Star Wars comes to mind here, yet James Bond or Goku get a free pass.
Its infuriating especially when people forget about the original Mary sue and why she was created in the first place as a parody of a Star Trek fan character archetype who got the entire crew to fall in love with her.
But its become too broad now any character who has even the slightest hint of having more than one friend, or has powers (especially females) or anything typically associated with the term becomes a Sue by default in modern pop culture.
Now it seems like the only way to pass the snuff test is to make your character a worthless friendless loser because that is "realism" or show the audience 10-hour training montages.
And look I personally do my best as a writer to hone my characters in to the best of my abilities and do give them caps to their powers, so I don't get the "Sue" accusation but still I am bound to be called out by some idiot with a bone to pick complaining about my characters not being realistic despite my story having its strong rules and caps.
Still the term has become too much of a catch-all and translates to "I hate this character they must be a Sue!"

I heart it once or twice only if I'm being honest.

 

[CadmarLegend]

I heart it once or twice only if I'm being honest.

I don't think it's used a lot in classic literature, so maybe that's why....?

 

[LimitBound]

I don't think it's used a lot in classic literature, so maybe that's why....?

Mm, that might be it. Although I'll mention that I only heard it in comments from webnovels (app) so there's that.

 

[CadmarLegend]

Mm, that might be it. Although I'll mention that I only heard it in comments from webnovels (app) so there's that.

I honestly only have mainly heard of it because of this thread.... I am terrible with sayings, just *cue the drums* sayin'

 

[MadmanRB]

Ai-chan doesn't know what you're talking about. Mary Sue still means 'a genius character who can do everything, is good at everything, knows everything, has no flaw, solves all problems that other characters struggle on her own and saves the day despite impossible situations every time'. If someone calls your character a Mary Sue yet this definition doesn't apply, then ignore them because they probably don't know what a Mary Sue is. Ai-chan has never heard of anyone using the term Mary Sue differently.

Ai-chan does not watch the new Star Wars (because they're shit) but from what others said, Ai-chan agrees that Rey is a Mary Sue.
- Genius character who can do everything - Check
- Is good at everything - Probably, check
- Knows everything - Probably, the amount of stuff she pulled out of her ass is strange, check
- Has no flaw - Definite check
- Solves all problems on her own - Check
- Sweeps in and saves the day - Check

Yes but one can say the same things about Batman or Superman, but both get a free pass too.
I mean Batman has had his moments to be sure
Also, Rey does have a flaw, she did have some major self doubts at times and inner conflict.
Plus your own definitions of a Sue does have its flaws:
Genius character who can do everything: so the only way for a character not to be a Sue for you is to be dumb with no skills
Is good at everything: Again seems like the only way to pass your "Sue test" is to make a character a useless brick.
Knows everything: Again guess a character has to be a dipshit to not be a Sue for you (shrugs)
Solves all problems on her own: so again make your character useless?? Seems kind of redundant TBH
Sweeps in and saves the day: so all superheros then, okaaaaay

Mind you I don't mean to strawman you here, but I do like poking holes at these Mary sue tests that people come up with to justify why they like/hate a character.

 

[Reisinling]

Mm, that might be it. Although I'll mention that I only heard it in comments from webnovels (app) so there's that.

It was more in fashion a few years ago. Here is a decent video related to writing about it:

 

[WasatchWind]

Honestly, I think there is 1 more aspect to Mary


I think there is one more aspect to Mary Sue characters- everyone only thinks about them and their awesomeness. No idea if it applies to SW movies, haven't seen them (I didn't like the old ones so saw no reason to watch the new ones :P).

What I mean about that, especially in literature, is that when we have chapter from other peoples PoV, even when they are doing something on the other side of the world, they are always comparing everyone to MC, or thinking about MC etc. As if the whole universe revolved around that person- actually even worse, it's as if the whole world was worshipping them, but we pretend they don't, and that they are completly normal relationships.
Examples from novels I'm reading in spite of that: Blue Core (actually, there we could argue for a pair of Mary Sues, of Shayma and Blue, though the first one is more of a waifu sue), A Demon Lord’s Tale: Dungeons, Monster Girls, and Heartwarming Bliss, and of course Wortenia Senki
From the old timey paper books there was terrible book pretending to be "I,Robot" (other authors work in the universum) but I forgot its title and it was so bad I threw it away, with stereotypical Mary Sue character, like to the T.

there was one novel translation that I actually dropped because of that, but I forgot what it was... I only remember the main heroes name was Marco, and he was like a war hero that died and came back in the same world?


If we were to go with a classical character that might be Mary Sue.. I think I would go with Sherlock Holmes more than James Bond. Especially, especially in the movie versions/bbc series (yeah, he is usually portrayed as an alcoholic/asshole but this "Flaw" is only there to make them look even cooler)

Sherlock Holmes is a really good example. I think the reason why people enjoy his character is because it is paired with the mystery element, of it is so fun to watch him figure out problems.

Rey didn't really have personality to me, no charm or humor that made me want to like her. Everyone had this wisecracking attitude from the first scene of the trilogy where Poe ruins the drama of Kylo Ren's reveal, by going "wHo tAlKs fIrSt dO yOu tAlK fIrSt oR I tAlK fIRsT?"

Gosh, what horrible writing.

Your point about the universe revolving around the protagonist also is a good one. Everyone considers themselves the protagonist of their own life story, and characters should be written that way.

It was more in fashion a few years ago. Here is a decent video related to writing about it:

Ah, JP, he makes some good stuff.

Yes but one can say the same things about Batman or Superman, but both get a free pass too.
I mean Batman has had his moments to be sure
Also, Rey does have a flaw, she did have some major self doubts at times and inner conflict.
Plus your own definitions of a Sue does have its flaws:
Genius character who can do everything: so the only way for a character not to be a Sue for you is to be dumb with no skills
Is good at everything: Again seems like the only way to pass your "Sue test" is to make a character a useless brick.
Knows everything: Again guess a character has to be a dipshit to not be a Sue for you (shrugs)
Solves all problems on her own: so again make your character useless?? Seems kind of redundant TBH
Sweeps in and saves the day: so all superheros then, okaaaaay

Mind you I don't mean to strawman you here, but I do like poking holes at these Mary sue tests that people come up with to justify why they like/hate a character.

Personally I'm not a fan of the DC Superheroes. Captain America and struggles he has over freedom and safety are much more interesting. You can feel in him that he is conflicted, and he is only just a man who can't be sure that he's right.

 

[Ai-chan]

Yes but one can say the same things about Batman or Superman, but both get a free pass too.
I mean Batman has had his moments to be sure
Also, Rey does have a flaw, she did have some major self doubts at times and inner conflict.
Plus your own definitions of a Sue does have its flaws:
Genius character who can do everything: so the only way for a character not to be a Sue for you is to be dumb with no skills
Is good at everything: Again seems like the only way to pass your "Sue test" is to make a character a useless brick.
Knows everything: Again guess a character has to be a dipshit to not be a Sue for you (shrugs)
Solves all problems on her own: so again make your character useless?? Seems kind of redundant TBH
Sweeps in and saves the day: so all superheros then, okaaaaay

Mind you I don't mean to strawman you here, but I do like poking holes at these Mary sue tests that people come up with to justify why they like/hate a character.

Actually no.

A genius is not able to do everything. A genius is only a genius at one or two things. A genius in physics likely would have no idea how to fix a car, unless he spends time fixing cars his entire life. A genius diver probably has no idea how to fly an airplane. Taking example from Artemis Fowl series (though Ai-chan doesn't read it), Artemis Fowl is a genius, but only when he's thinking. The downside to him being a genius, is that he has severe physical disability in that just walking down the stairs makes him tired.

'Is good at everything' does not mean to make him dumb as a brick with no skills. He can be good at something, heck he can be good at two or three things. For example, a cook, will know how to cut fish, how to season dishes and probably has god-tier palate. He would probably even know how to haggle price down to the seller's underwear. What he wouldn't have known, would be how to rewire his home, how to build his house from scratch with wooden logs that he cut in a week with a hand saw, how to skateboard and how to hack a computer.

'Knows everything' does not mean being a dipshit. Let Ai-chan ask you one thing and one thing only. Do know how to lockpick a jail cell? This doesn't involve actual skills, just knowledge. Do you know how to lockpick a jail cell?

'Solves all problems on her own'. Ai-chan frankly is baffled by your mindset right now. Are YOU able to solve all problems on your own?

'Sweeps in and saves the day'. No, you seriously need to study story plot more. A hero does not need to save the day every single time. A hero can fail. Let's take an example of an actual Mary Sue hero, Superman. Despite all his powers, he couldn't save all the people who died in those buildings when he fought the Kryptonians. He didn't save the day for those people, he became the cause of the problem for those people. In hindsight, his inability to think of luring the Kryptonians away to fight away from populated city was his flaw.

 

[Napelynn]

...or show the audience 10-hour training montages.

Honestly training montages can be kind of annoying.

It’s better if the character trains consistently throughout the story and you can see the effort that went into their growth rather than just having random boosts in power.

If the character is all-knowing or all-powerful I want there to be able to understand how they got there. If I know that they trained hard and went through many hardships then I wouldn’t consider the character a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. On the other hand, if a character can do everything for no reason other than to continue the plot than they are a Mary Sue/Gary Stu.

 

[MadmanRB]

Personally I'm not a fan of the DC Superheroes. Captain America and struggles he has over freedom and safety are much more interesting. You can feel in him that he is conflicted, and he is only just a man who can't be sure that he's right.

Yeah but even Captain America has had what could be considered sue traits as well

Actually no.

A genius is not able to do everything. A genius is only a genius at one or two things. A genius in physics likely would have no idea how to fix a car, unless he spends time fixing cars his entire life. A genius diver probably has no idea how to fly an airplane. Taking example from Artemis Fowl series (though Ai-chan doesn't read it), Artemis Fowl is a genius, but only when he's thinking. The downside to him being a genius, is that he has severe physical disability in that just walking down the stairs makes him tired.

'Is good at everything' does not mean to make him dumb as a brick with no skills. He can be good at something, heck he can be good at two or three things. For example, a cook, will know how to cut fish, how to season dishes and probably has god-tier palate. He would probably even know how to haggle price down to the seller's underwear. What he wouldn't have known, would be how to rewire his home, how to build his house from scratch with wooden logs that he cut in a week with a hand saw, how to skateboard and how to hack a computer.

'Knows everything' does not mean being a dipshit. Let Ai-chan ask you one thing and one thing only. Do know how to lockpick a jail cell? This doesn't involve actual skills, just knowledge. Do you know how to lockpick a jail cell?

'Solves all problems on her own'. Ai-chan frankly is baffled by your mindset right now. Are YOU able to solve all problems on your own?

'Sweeps in and saves the day'. No, you seriously need to study story plot more. A hero does not need to save the day every single time. A hero can fail. Let's take an example of an actual Mary Sue hero, Superman. Despite all his powers, he couldn't save all the people who died in those buildings when he fought the Kryptonians. He didn't save the for those people, he became the cause of the problem for those people.

Well there are times you have to take shortcuts and the like.
For example there is nothing to indicate Doctor Emmett Brown knows how to build a time machine, yet we see him doing many unrelated science experiments.
By modern definitions he would fill the first two of your sue traits easily as would every other scientist character ever created in fiction.
That's because these days we like to favor "specialists" who may know some things but not others and to defuse this you would have to break his character into three people thous making back to the future far less fun methinks as a good key thing of why its liked is its dynamic between Doc Brown and Marty McFly. Sometimes having a character with more than one scientific field or knowledge is a necessary evil in storytelling.

Also, the rest I was being hypothetical, so I could get your intentions behind your test.
I mean yes have the hero asking for help now and then that's a good thing you know who passed this? Rey as she did ask Luke to help her just letting you know :D

And no I don't need to study plot more, I do set my heroes to fail now and then.
It was your wording of your test that made me tilt my head, so thanks for the clarification :D

 

[Ediav42]

Well “troll” has “grown” to the point that it encompasses anyone a person finds annoying instead of just “person who is purposely a jerk to get a rise out of someone especially on the Internet where they are anonymous.”
Just the way language and people are really.
speaking of Mary Sue, here is a story of Gandalf the gay kicking the ass of one:

 

[Jemini]

Ok, I think everyone is missing the 1 single key factor that separates a Mary Sue from a non-sue. Justification for their abilities.

For instance, Goku is NOT a Mary Sue because every single major arc of Dragon ball, Dragon ball Z, and Dragon ball Super involves some kind of training arc where Goku trains under a master who should be sufficient to ingrain the appropriate level of skill into him to get past the next challenge he is going to face. This justification, and the fact that they are certain to set it up, means that Goku is not a superpowered character who "gets a pass." He is actually nowhere near being a Sue to start with.

As for Rey from Starwars and why she IS a Sue, it's because they do NOT justify her power. She uses the force mind trick, that she shouldn't even know is a thing that can be done at that point in the story, on her first attempt after only a small amount of struggle. She also had a successful lightsaber duel against Ren who was trained by 1 Jedi master and 1 Sith lord. There is absolutely nothing to justify her fighting that well.

As for Luke from the original trillogy, he actually did have the appropriate justification. He was trained by Yoda appropriately. In the first one, A New Hope, he could barely use the force at all. It only came into play right at the end of the movie. As for how he was able to hit the target on the Death Star, he said right during the meeting before him that he "used to bullsey wamp rats" who are about the same size as the target. So, really, if he was going at slower speeds and not under pressure from people trying to kill him, he could have actually hit the target easy. The only thing he needed to "use the force" for was to shut out all those other factors that were making things harder. So, it was justified appropriately by having him have partaken in an activity that is very reasonable for you to think a farm-boy like him might be doing.

And as for Luke's lightsaber duel against Vader in Empire Strikes Back, you have to have actual sword skills to catch it but Vader was holding back his real skills quite a bit during that fight. He was using his 2 handed lightsaber with only 1 hand. For the first quarter of the battle, he was doing nothing but parrying while looking intimidating. The few times he threw a strike, he used a HUGE obvious telegraph that someone with the skill to parry so effectively should have known not to be doing. In other words, he was telegraphing on purpose because he wanted Luke to dodge or block. And the reason for why he was toying around so much is revealed pretty clearly when he informs Luke that he is his father.

So, really, that's the key thing there. It's whether or not the demonstrated abities and skills are justified.

James bond is an MI6 agent. The justification we get for him is not on-screen, but it can be assumed just by the fact he's an MI6 agent that he has been adequately trained to do all the things he does.

Superman... well, he's a Kryptonian. That justifies the things he can do, which technically means he's not a Sue, but that justification feels really cheap compared to others. People tend to all be familiar with Superman as a character, but are not really invested in him and do not identify with him these days. He's just too OP and feels too shallow. He may not qualify as a Sue on technicality, but he gets a negative rap for other reasons.

Speaking of... Batman's abilities are justified through a training journey and a LOT of money. A cheap and barely sufficient justification. Technically, this actually does have all the characteristics of a Sue, so it can be said that he "gets a pass." He should be considered a Sue, but for some reason people forgive him for his obvious "Mary Sue" characteristics. I think the reason the audience gives him such a pass is for 2 reasons. 1. Comparison. There are other DC heroes with abilities far more broken than him. He's a normal human. And, so, him standing like a man among gods gives the audience someone they feel like they can identify with a little better. Thus, even though this should cement him as EVEN MORE of a Sue, it instead ups his awesome factor somehow by giving the audience a desired outlet. 2. He just fills a certain perfect storm of a cool factor.

Batman is a complicated matter. By all objective rights, he should be considered a Mary Sue character. He has just managed to find the rare crack that an obvious Sue character like him can slip through and wind up feeling awesome instead of lame. It is a very fine balancing act though. I am probably capable of analyzing this, but it would probably fill up an entire volume's worth and this post is already a wall of text.

 

[WasatchWind]

Yeah but even Captain America has had what could be considered sue traits as well



Well there are times you have to take shortcuts and the like.
For example there is nothing to indicate Doctor Emmett Brown knows how to build a time machine, yet we see him doing many unrelated science experiments.
By modern definitions he would fill the first two of your sue traits easily as would every other scientist character ever created in fiction.
That's because these days we like to favor "specialists" who may know some things but not others and to defuse this you would have to break his character into three people thous making back to the future far less fun methinks as a good key thing of why its liked is its dynamic between Doc Brown and Marty McFly. Sometimes having a character with more than one scientific field or knowledge is a necessary evil in storytelling.

Also, the rest I was being hypothetical, so I could get your intentions behind your test.
I mean yes have the hero asking for help now and then that's a good thing you know who passed this? Rey as she did ask Luke to help her just letting you know :D

And no I don't need to study plot more, I do set my heroes to fail now and then.
It was your wording of your test that made me tilt my head, so thanks for the clarification :D

This is why I find Mary Sue a top simple definition to describe Rey. I can't define her biggest problem.

Really, I think it's just bad writing. Maybe it's that she's locked in a boring plot.

In the original trilogy, the goal is obviously to defeat the empire. They have setbacks, but every time they make a detour, it feels like it is working towards that greater end.

The story of the prequels is the decline of the old republic and the Jedi, and the birth of the empire and Darth Vader. The portrayal of this is done badly sometimes, but the overall themes and worldbuilding I think are pretty good.

The sequels have TERRIBLE worldbuilding. There is little background given about the first order and the new republic, so we're left to assume that the republic has let the empire rise again.

There is no indication that the rebels or new empire have changed in the slightest. The first order seems just as powerful as the empire, even more so at points.

This, in my opinion, makes the plot feel sucky, and then that makes me not care about the characters. It feels like just a worse repeat of the original trilogy.

Their obvious goal is to defeat the first order, but it feels like they go on a bunch of detours that serve no story purpose, only to toss in new locations or characters. Rise of Skywalker especially suffers from this. At this point the old conflict was too boring so they invented one that was even dumber.

The Mandalorian in my opinon does a much better job with its worldbuilding, and I don't think that is because it has an advantage of time.

I think that it is a visual thing. Instead of starkiller base, give us a desperate bloodthirsty terrorist group set on revenge, building weapons that don't destroy planets, but scorch them.

Give us a view into the new republic. Actually show the Jedi order, rather than this crappy plot of it collapsed again.

All this brings me to why I think the terribly crafted world sunk the characters - it didn't feel like they had interesting goals.


Luke wanted to become a Jedi like his father. He wanted to avenge the death of his aunt and uncle.

Rey wants to know who her parents are. That's all it feels like. I'm sure you can argue for more, but it... it just doesn't feel like she cares about anything to me.


Revised plot in my head. After the collapse of the empire, it fractures into warring factions. The republic is refounded as is the Jedi order. Luke sees that it is alive and well. When we meet Rey, she is already a Jedi. However, she is encountering the same kind of struggles Anakin did. She has passions that are not allowed in her order.

She is tempted by the Sith, and begins to question if the Jedi are right. In her case, rather than being just blinded by hate, she is legitamately wondering if the Jedi are moral right.

At the same time, the first order has formed out of a coalition of warring imperial factions. At first they are engaging only in small skirmishes, but the film ends with a climactic scene of them attempting to invade Coruscant and take the capital in a desperate attempt to gain an advantage.

Though victorious, the empire is struggling to hold together as dissenters question their commitment to breaking up the former imperial groups.

Rey is questioning the Jedi commitment not to show passion and care about the suffering of many in the conflict.


That I think, is much better worldbuilding. Is it arrogant for me to say that? Perhaps. I think the sequels turned out so terrible because they wrote it by a committee, and tried too hard to play it safe.