The YA epidemic...

[CupcakeNinja]

I'm not saying to not blame the person involved. I'm only saying to look at the big picture. There is far more involved in a persons behavior than just them.

Also: You clearly think people raised in well off households are taught better. You'd be wrong. Lots of well off people are taught to take everything they can from anyone they can. Lots of rich and well off people both show and tell their children to lie, cheat, and steal. Not to mention that spoiling people rotten is a phrase that exists for a reason: Giving someone everything they want doesn't teach kindness, it teaches greed and apathy.

You definitely did well to get out from where you were. My point here is: You are not the norm. You did well. You fought. Not everyone is able to fight. Don't expect everyone to be as STRONG as you. You are not weak, you proved that yourself. That doesn't mean no one else is weak.

Weak or strong is irrelevant and no excuse either. Just because its understandable....what? What exactly is your point? So what if he isnt the norm? That tells us nothing of your opinion really. May wanna actually state what it is.

So far i can tell you sre saying something like "there are always exceptions. We shouldnt blame people who cant help themselves for they know not what they do. We should be more understanding"

But i dunno fam. Again its VERY UNLIKELY that ANYONE has ONLY EVER known and been taught bad things. So that excuse of they dont know any better is just...like, completely wrong. Most times. 99% at least.

They know better. They choose not to be better. Weal? Perhaps. Doesnt matter. The CHOICE matters.

Everyone made choices. THEY made the choices. Not society.

See the real sad part of that is this applies to your parents too. Life is a series of choices. Your parents? Whatever may have happened to them, they made choices that got them where they were.

Not saying making "right" choices is always easy. Sometimes, even a lot of the time, its incredibly hard to actually follow through with.

But look at you. Despite your environment you obviously made fine choices, at least compared to your friends. Thats why you're way better thsn those you know. Some choice(s) you made was clearly a good one.

This is also true for any of those rich kids. Life was easier for them. Maybe the money and power offered temptations and currptions. But they made their choices and that how they became what they are. Not because of anyone or anything else. Ultimately it was them.

Yet not all rich kids would turn out that way. Like i said before, we may not be inherently evil. But some are just inherently more good. Who, despite their surroundings, turn out decent enough.

They arent few either. And they prove environment alone has less to do with the person you become than people like to think. And they think that just as a way to avoid responsibility.

Whether you are strong or weak of mind cant be used as an excuse. Cuz sure, you might be a pushover. But you dont gotta take it so far sometimes, right?. And when you do take it too far, weakness has nothing to do with it. You merely made the choice to be a shitty person. Dont mean you cant be saved, just that you are a right cunt and you gotta at least accept that, then learn how to not be.

I think you misunderstood me because I was saying quite clearly that some people are better than others. I'm also saying we should seek to help those who are inept instead of blaming them for their ineptitude.

Nah i agree with helping some who arent just complete scum. But to not blame them? Fuck you, you little bitch. Oh and sorry that you wasnt meant for you personally. Just you know, using them good old sentence enhancers. Bringing the passion. Dont mean anything bad to you personally m'dude.

Anyway of course we can blame them. We should blame them. We have to.

That doesnt mesn we shouldnt help them. But if we sugarcoat their weaknesses that will just have an opposite effect. People have to accept they need change if they truly WANT to change. I find most times people wont ever wanna change if they dont think they need to. Need and want come hand in hand.

 

[Sabruness]

I can see and understand the points both @Kldran and @Discount_Blade are making. Honestly, the answer probably lies somewhere in between. People are responsible but society itself also holds some responsibility.
I think it's like drugs. It's the fault of the users for providing the market but it's also the fault of society for not doing enough to curb the use and get people proper help. I'd usually say more at this point but that would be veering way too close to politics and thus a no-go for this forum.

Of course, some people are just plain born scum which is the randomness of humanity at play

 

[Kldran]

But i dunno fam. Again its VERY UNLIKELY that ANYONE has ONLY EVER known and been taught bad things. So that excuse of they dont know any better is just...like, completely wrong. Most times. 99% at least.

As I've said, we clearly disagree on this, and no amount of repeating yourself will change my opinion.

 

[CupcakeNinja]

As I've said, we clearly disagree on this, and no amount of repeating yourself will change my opinion.

Oh i dont give two fucks about changing your opinion my dude. Changing opinions is never why i have these arguments. Its just fun to have them. See the perspectives and have a civil chat about them. Their merits and points and whatnot.

I just felt it was still worthy of a response that final time.

 

[Kldran]

Oh i dont give two fucks about changing your opinion my dude. Changing opinions is never why i have these arguments. Its just fun to have them. See the perspectives and have a civil chat about them. Their merits and points and whatnot.

I just felt it was still worthy of a response that final time.

All good.
I've had the unfortunate experience of people who struggle to grasp when there's a fundamental disagreement on axioms and keep trying argue, so I tend to just assume the worst. My basic argument is founded on how disappointed I've become with humanity. I've seen too much ignorance to hold the optimism your conclusion is founded on. I used to believe what you do, that everyone can choose to be better. Then I got horribly jaded.

 

[CupcakeNinja]

All good.
I've had the unfortunate experience of people who struggle to grasp when there's a fundamental disagreement on axioms and keep trying argue, so I tend to just assume the worst. My basic argument is founded on how disappointed I've become with humanity. I've seen too much ignorance to hold the optimism your conclusion is founded on. I used to believe what you do, that everyone can choose to be better. Then I got horribly jaded.

I dunno. I dont think its very optimistic. My beliefs on theatter are formed from a very "fair" and strict viewpoint. Perhaps even harsh. Certainly unforgiving.

I just hate people who blame their shit on things other than themselves, yanno?

 

[Kldran]

I just hate people who blame their shit on things other than themselves, yanno?

The main issue is that for people to have choice, they must have knowledge. Thus believing all people have choice is also believing all people have knowledge, and that's very optimistic from my point of view. I've given up on that. I've seen too much stupidity to believe in that anymore. Then there's all the people I've met who just seem to be missing something. Like some part of what I took to be basic human cognition is missing. Plus all the people I've seen who are clearly broken. I don't really think anyone chooses to break. They just do.

 

[CupcakeNinja]

The main issue is that for people to have choice, they must have knowledge. Thus believing all people have choice is also believing all people have knowledge, and that's very optimistic from my point of view. I've given up on that. I've seen too much stupidity to believe in that anymore. Then there's all the people I've met who just seem to be missing something. Like some part of what I took to be basic human cognition is missing. Plus all the people I've seen who are clearly broken. I don't really think anyone chooses to break. They just do.

Nah. It just means the choice wont be informed. Or it would be limited. Even how you react to a situation is a choice. Angry, calm, worried. Its very hard to be truly stripped of choices as they happen inwardly as well.

But yeah some people do feel that they have completely none. And that in itself also limits them.

 

[Rinne]

So, reading through this thread I am confused about one thing.
Are you guys talking about children or about young adults?

If you write young adult fiction, it's not your responsibility to keep it children-friendly. Otherwise, you would write, well, children's stories. It is the responsibility of the parents or their guardians to watch over them. You shouldn't give a child a knife to play around with. I understand that it's not always possible to watch over children, but it is then the responsibility of the parents to show the mentioned positive examples, in that case. Of course, we can cite the cases of where this didn't work out, where bad children come from good families, or where good children come from bad families, but those are, for the most part, outliers, not the norm.
And personally, most (not all) of the cases of "bad children" coming from "good families" that I witnessed, weren't at all surprising, because the parents gave barely a shit about their kid as long as they "looked good enough for society." Or they had some other obsessive tick that would make anyone crazy if they had to grow up with that... I certainly would have.
And the "good children" coming from "bad families" often had a very caring person in their lives, who took care of them and showed them that not all things in life are bad, this can be a friend, neighbour, one parent or other relatives. But that's just my experience, and maybe not the norm either. Who knows. Maybe there are people who do, I certainly don't.
Children are extremely impressionable. More so than adults, because they have a lot less to compare to. This still stays true for young adults but to a way lower degree.

And a young adult, in my honest opinion, should be capable of taking responsibility for themselves. I certainly don't enjoy strangers trying to tell me what is good for me and what isn't. I am my own person and I can certainly decide for myself what I read and what I enjoy. I have no need for others to handhold me through my life and most of my friends and peers certainly don't need to either. And that one person who would need it? Well, it's one person, he's not the norm and I certainly would be quite angry if people would take away my entertainment because of one idiot incapable of thinking 3 seconds into the future. That already happens more than enough, don't need to add on it.
They are still impressionable, yes, but they are old enough to decide their own lives and to take responsibility for themselves. Most people got a working brain and can do that just fine.

With all that said, there are plenty of things that influence our lives. I have no idea how popular reading is nowadays with teens but when I was a teen, barely anyone was reading books in the first place. You cannot pin it down on a single bad element in our lives and call out "Oh my fucking god! This is what ruins our society!" The thing that makes the most impression on us are the people in our immediate surroundings, most notably our own parents. If you ever talked with a teacher and their experiences with problem children's parents... You would get a lot of impressive stories. In the majority of cases, the parents just don't care or are just as bad or even worse than their own child. Of course, there are children that just naturally got a screw loose despite having great parents...
Also, literature like that has existed for a long time already. Mysteriously, humanity still exists.

And those were my own 2 cents.
TL;DR Adults take responsibility for themselves.

 

[AliceShiki]

So, reading through this thread I am confused about one thing.
Are you guys talking about children or about young adults?

If you write young adult fiction, it's not your responsibility to keep it children-friendly. Otherwise, you would write, well, children's stories. It is the responsibility of the parents or their guardians to watch over them. You shouldn't give a child a knife to play around with. I understand that it's not always possible to watch over children, but it is then the responsibility of the parents to show the mentioned positive examples, in that case. Of course, we can cite the cases of where this didn't work out, where bad children come from good families, or where good children come from bad families, but those are, for the most part, outliers, not the norm.
And personally, most (not all) of the cases of "bad children" coming from "good families" that I witnessed, weren't at all surprising, because the parents gave barely a shit about their kid as long as they "looked good enough for society." Or they had some other obsessive tick that would make anyone crazy if they had to grow up with that... I certainly would have.
And the "good children" coming from "bad families" often had a very caring person in their lives, who took care of them and showed them that not all things in life are bad, this can be a friend, neighbour, one parent or other relatives. But that's just my experience, and maybe not the norm either. Who knows. Maybe there are people who do, I certainly don't.
Children are extremely impressionable. More so than adults, because they have a lot less to compare to. This still stays true for young adults but to a way lower degree.

And a young adult, in my honest opinion, should be capable of taking responsibility for themselves. I certainly don't enjoy strangers trying to tell me what is good for me and what isn't. I am my own person and I can certainly decide for myself what I read and what I enjoy. I have no need for others to handhold me through my life and most of my friends and peers certainly don't need to either. And that one person who would need it? Well, it's one person, he's not the norm and I certainly would be quite angry if people would take away my entertainment because of one idiot incapable of thinking 3 seconds into the future. That already happens more than enough, don't need to add on it.
They are still impressionable, yes, but they are old enough to decide their own lives and to take responsibility for themselves. Most people got a working brain and can do that just fine.

With all that said, there are plenty of things that influence our lives. I have no idea how popular reading is nowadays with teens but when I was a teen, barely anyone was reading books in the first place. You cannot pin it down on a single bad element in our lives and call out "Oh my fucking god! This is what ruins our society!" The thing that makes the most impression on us are the people in our immediate surroundings, most notably our own parents. If you ever talked with a teacher and their experiences with problem children's parents... You would get a lot of impressive stories. In the majority of cases, the parents just don't care or are just as bad or even worse than their own child. Of course, there are children that just naturally got a screw loose despite having great parents...
Also, literature like that has existed for a long time already. Mysteriously, humanity still exists.

And those were my own 2 cents.
TL;DR Adults take responsibility for themselves.

I believe most people are talking about teens actually... Which AFAIK are actually the target audience for YA novels, even though they're labeled as for Young Adults... >.>

I mean... Harry Potter is YA, isn't it? That novel is 100% aimed at teens... >.>

 

[Mejiro]

YA is generally teens, yeah - an 'advanced' reader can be getting into it probably at ages 10, 11 or so, but a lot of it is around 'who am I, how do I fit into society' with a dash of fumbling sexuality, which fits with teens, and fading off as the twenties beckon. 'YA' is a bit of a euphemism, as most of the demographic are not adults and are likely to be living at home, dependent on parents/care givers and so on.

 

[PrincessFelicie]

I was surprised when I learned YA is for teens instead of 18~25, but it indeed is more for 12~17.

 

[AliceShiki]

I was surprised when I learned YA is for teens instead of 18~25, but it indeed is more for 12~17.

It's kinda funny for me, because in my country YA is actually the Child-Youth category... So I always found it weird when I found out the English equivalent called it Young Adults~

 

[LWFlouisa]

Has anyone else heard of New Adult fiction? This is actually closer to what I do.

I mean you could have decapitations, and other things in Young Adult. Especially in Manga, but not usually in US based content. So New Adult was a pretty natural switch over for me.

I still find it important to be subtle content wise, just for stylistic reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_adult_fiction There was an NA LitChat a while back, but it's pretty much dead in the water.

Although my personal frustration with that demographic is there was this overwhelming expectation to write porn. I have no problem if others want to write that. But I don't do porn. I write about blood and guts.

Well, blood, guts, and angsty college students.

 

[GDLiZy]

Yaoi, and Yuri for that matter, is inherently a fetish genre. Most who read the genre isn't going into it for the engaging storyline, but they are going to see their favourite taboo and the violation of their archetype aka self-insert. That's why lots of Yaoi and Yuri had many kinks, it's because most of them come in the package.

I once asked by Yaoi lover friend, and he told me that it is very essential for him that there is a fix position for the couple ( the upper and the lower. I don't know what they are called. ). Although they can sometimes swap position, most of the time it would be fixed.

I don't have any Yuri friends, however, so can't commend on that. I only read Yuri for the fluff and the drama.

 

[GhostyZ]

I need to get this off of my chest because if I don't, I might explode or smthg.

So, few hours ago I was browsing Inkitt and I noticed a trend among the most viewed novels on their hot list. I will give you some of the tittle just so you can get an idea : Falling for the Alpha, Rejected by the Alpha, Fever Claim, the Prince's True Mate, Made for my Alpha....and yeah, I guess you get the general premise.

I moved to Wattpad, and you know, My Naughty Boss, Submitting to the Alpha, Tutoring the Bad Boy and of course the abominations that are original Harry Styles and Riverdale fanfics. I won't speak about the abundance of Stranger Things x reader fics because that's just sexualizing kids.

Is this truly what sells today ? Is this what people, mainly women, love to read ? Toxic, controlling, emotionally abusive and angry male leads ? Why ? just...why? And then when you realize that some of these works are being adapted to the big silver screen like its nothing, for eg the Fifty Shade of Mediocrity series and this upcoming monstrosity called After ( originally a HARRY STYLES fic)

WHY ?

Am I not normal for being a female young adult and not liking any of this ? This trend honestly makes sick to my stomach. The bullshit they are brainwashing young girls with through these diseased so-called 'romance novels'. Just..arrrghhh. I'm gonna lay down a bit now. Thanks for hearing out my random rant.

_____________
Most people follow trends because they are sheep.

 

[AliceShiki]

Yaoi, and Yuri for that matter, is inherently a fetish genre. Most who read the genre isn't going into it for the engaging storyline, but they are going to see their favourite taboo and the violation of their archetype aka self-insert. That's why lots of Yaoi and Yuri had many kinks, it's because most of them come in the package.

I once asked by Yaoi lover friend, and he told me that it is very essential for him that there is a fix position for the couple ( the upper and the lower. I don't know what they are called. ). Although they can sometimes swap position, most of the time it would be fixed.

I don't have any Yuri friends, however, so can't commend on that. I only read Yuri for the fluff and the drama.

I never heard of anyone that read yuri while thinking of it as a fetish tbh. Everyone was into it because of the storyline or the characters.

Like... It's basically shoujo, but without ever having to worry about seeing the "perfect male lead that will accept everything the MC does no matter what" nor the "Edgy, bully, rough, feared male lead that is kind to the MC and only to the MC". Of course those 2 are not the only type of Male Leads you see in shoujo, you do see proper well-developed and interesting characters in those too, but... In Yuri you always see two interesting female leads that you actually care for.

So... Between reading Shoujo and hoping to have an interesting Male Lead to complement the MC, or reading Yuri and having a guarantee of a good couple to read about, it's kinda easy to choose Yuri, really. It has nothing to do with fetishes, I just want to read good Shoujo.

As for Yaoi, I don't think it's that fetishized either, I don't read that much yaoi, but the ones I did read were basically the same as Yuri... As in, good Shoujo. But with 2 Male Leads instead of 2 Female Leads, of course the dynamic does change when you change the gender of the characters involved, as well as some tropes and what not, but... At its core, Yaoi, Yuri and Shoujo are basically the same thing. Most readers are just seeking for good Shoujo at the end of the day~

... Things get different when we're talking about R-18 works of course, but... Well, those have completely different target audiences.

 

[LWFlouisa]

Honestly I don't mind what they come in expecting, so long as they're not coming in expecting characters that refuse to wear brand names, worship the almighty sickle and hammer, and equate things to that ideology that have no relationship with it. ( You can be capitalist, and still largely OK with LGBT people for example. )

I really hate ideological indoctrination, got my fill of it in YT. Just enjoy the story for its own sake.

So Yuri and Yaoi is absolutely fine by me.

 

[Mejiro]

Yaoi I've come across more fetishization of then yuri - the people I know that read yaoi are very much into dudes doing dudes, while there's a whole slew of yuri that's basically 'cute girls doing cute things', except some of them are kinda-sorta dating, or where it's all about badass magical cyborg girls (or whatever) and there's not really any dudes around to have relationships with, so everyone's kinda gay or ace by default. That's very much anecdotal rather than data though, there could be an entire range of cutesy yaoi I've never seen. There is yuri that's very sexually driven and stuff, but there's a lot that isn't, while all the yaoi I've seen is pretty sexually charged, and about the sexings.