Your observations on the presence of masculine-presenting female characters in high fantasy novels

StrongArm

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For me, it all depends on the culture of the fantasy world you are building from. Cultural pressure to conform is a real and present thing. For the most part we don't have very many historical depictions of such women in those times because women simply were not allowed and highly discouraged from any type of behavior that didn't fit the mold. If they existed, unless they occupied an essential place in history they were ignored, beaten down, and written out of historical record. The same thing goes on today to different groups of people that don't fit our collective current view of the boxes people should exist in. People haven't changed much...

My point is that it should be written well, with the struggles your character will go through for behaving out of the norm to be well thought out. Otherwise it's another kind of MC power dream that requires greater degrees of suspension-of-disbelief.

(Sorry for being long winded)
thats not entirely true, there were standouts, like the viking shield maidens. But it is 1000% safe to say that any woman fighting in those times will face discrimination of some sort.
 

OP1000

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Are we talking about muscles or the "macho" type of stuff? Because if it's about appearance, I like my females not to be shredded and hard as the underside of a space shuttle.
I agree. I generally do not like characters that are buffed to the extreme, whether they are male or female.
thats not entirely true, there were standouts, like the viking shield maidens. But it is 1000% safe to say that any woman fighting in those times will face discrimination of some sort.
Yes, I also believe this to be the case when it comes to female warriors during the ancient/medieval era.
 

Viator

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thats not entirely true, there were standouts, like the viking shield maidens. But it is 1000% safe to say that any woman fighting in those times will face discrimination of some sort.
I acknowledge that. But that was specific to those kinds of cultures. I was writing from a generalized European prospective, but my point still stands. If you write from a point where the culture allows it, then that's that, but if you write from a point where there is significant cultural opposition you should be sure to reflect that.

*Edit religion had a huge impact on the viewpoints between cultures.
 

RavenRunes

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Real kick ass women existed. Empress Matilda, both Queen Eleanors, most of the Tudor queen, Catherine the Great, and a whole host of other lasses who wanted more from life than to spend their day doing embroidery and speculating on whether Sir Wassname actually fills his enormous codpiece...

In fantasy. Nope not that rare either. But Galadriel in that amazon travesty...please,no. Real women hold their own among strong men.
 
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See Lord of the Rings.

Note: Galadriel
Note: Eowyn

With the exception of the plot point in which Eowyn is frustrated about her inability to easily go into battle and win renown because the men around her are keeping her from doing so, either of those two roles could just as easily be filled by a male character and the story really would not have felt any different. Other than that mentioned point, every word and action by either of them would have been perfectly inline with things a male would do.
See Arthurian Legends. And other fantasy stories from the Medieval, Rennaisance, Enlightenment and Industrial Ages. Also included are folk and fairy tales, several of which contributed to the development of the High Fantasy genre.

You know what I'm talking about.

OP never mentioned the limit at 1950s literature, which would also (to prove your point) give me a lot of examples other than LotR, some of which come from Tolkien's friend, Lewis:

1). Lucy Pevensie (The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe)
2). Polly Plummer (The Magician's Nephew)
3). Jill Pole (The Silver Chair)
4). Aravis (The Horse and His Boy)

So I thought we're talking of an entire millenia worth of literature here.

Yep.
It's not that rare.

It's rather concerning,

Those medieval stories of "strong female" feels more like they're not actual medieval people of medieval era.

I feel like they're just modern woke athletic females that go into Disneyland/old city attraction with their medieval costume and their sword, and play adventurer in the garden filled with attraction.
Well, to be fair, when someone says 'medieval', everyone thinks of Europe. We forgot that there's also the medieval Asia where stories about ladies doing 'manly' things (though legends, and not high fantasy) are going around.

1). Mulan
2). Tomoe Gozen
3). Hangaku Gozen
4). Jingu Tenno (ancient figure, though)

Historical Figures

1). Ginchiyo Tachibana
2). Yodogimi
 
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Cipiteca396

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If you're talking about women disguising themselves as men to achieve their goals, it's not as common as it used to be.
People are more interested in just skipping all the cliches associated with that stuff. It's fine to just have your fantasy culture not be so stuck up.

On the other hand, if you're talking about tomboys or muscle girls, that seems to get more popular every day. -Not that it was unpopular before, what with the Amazons and the Valkyries.
 
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If you're talking about women disguising themselves as men to achieve their goals, it's not as common as it used to be.
People are more interested in just skipping all the cliches associated with that stuff. It's fine to just have your fantasy culture not be so stuck up.

On the other hand, if you're talking about tomboys or muscle girls, that seems to get more popular every day. -Not that it was unpopular before, what with the Amazons and the Valkyries.
I've read something before that the Damsel in Distress trope originated from the knightly culture of the European Middle Ages. Amazons and Valkyries are of different origins; one is from Classical Era (with its women having nearly equal stature with men), and the Norse myths, whose people (men and women) can actually kick ass.
 

StrongArm

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I've read something before that the Damsel in Distress trope originated from the knightly culture of the European Middle Ages. Amazons and Valkyries are of different origins; one is from Classical Era (with its women having nearly equal stature with men), and the Norse myths, whose people (men and women) can actually kick ass.
I dont think thats entirely correct. You also see the damsel in distress trope in older mythologies as well like greek, eastern european and japanese.
 
D

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I dont think thats entirely correct. You also see the damsel in distress trope in older mythologies as well like greek, eastern european and japanese.
I see...🤔

Well, I do agree on that. As one of my earlier thread reply stated, a lot of characters in Asian legends are ladies doing 'manly' things, and there's also a good share of women characters always have to be rescued.
 

Cipiteca396

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I've read something before that the Damsel in Distress trope originated from the knightly culture of the European Middle Ages.
You could say that the knight rescuing the princess is what turned it from a trope into a cliché. Every other knight was looking for a princess to grant him lordship. Before that, distressed people were a little more... diverse.
Amazons and Valkyries are of different origins; one is from Classical Era (with its women having nearly equal stature with men), and the Norse myths, whose people (men and women) can actually kick ass.
Classical women were mostly treated like property. I suppose it's nice that property like women and slaves had the ability to raise their status to 'nearly-equal' in classical times.

But I wasn't really talking about medieval standards there. I was just saying that its an old trope, and not some new fad that came out of nowhere.
 
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Classical women were mostly treated like property. I suppose it's nice that property like women and slaves had the ability to raise their status to 'nearly-equal' in classical times.
Yeah, kinda like the society of Roman Empire.
But I wasn't really talking about medieval standards there. I was just saying that its an old trope, and not some new fad that came out of nowhere.
It does. Well, I guess, turning back to the topic, 'manly' ladies have tickled men's fantasies ever since time immemorial, but also there are those who love their FMCs submissive.

As for me? I love writing strong characters is all.
 

J_Chemist

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Hello!!!!
How do you view such types of characters making an appearance in high fantasy stories where the setting is similar to that of the medieval ages? Is it a rare thing to see such types of characters in high fantasy novels?
I think as long as it fits the "meta" of the world, it's fine. Though genetically the bodies are different and women will typically be weaker than male counterparts in the majority of physical competitions, that does not rule them out from being capable warriors, hunters, mages, etc. So long as there is drive, mentorship, and experience, gender is merely an identifier. Thus, for me, as long as there is a good enough foundation to explain the why when a woman beats a man, I don't really think twice about it. Then again I also expect the same why to be provided when it's two dudes fighting.

In High Fantasy, the gender-gap is even less necessary and can be thrown out entirely (unless there is a plot device with keeping it). Not because of the "Fantasy" setting, but because of what that Fantasy setting brings to the table in terms of available tools for an individual. There are far more things within these worlds that erase the Male genetic "betterness" when it comes to physical ability. Women in such settings can utilize magic to enhance their bodies or cast aside physical fighting entirely for magic, something that doesn't care about whether you dangle or not. There are many other ways that "Betterness" gets nullified but I just use magic as an example.

Even in the real world, women have shown that they are just as capable even without those Fantasy-esque buffs. They have regularly shown just as much will and drive to do what most men are scared to do; go to war and fight. Time and time again we see in battlefield history that women have either snuck into the ranks to fight or volunteered for it. That evidence shows that the mindset to face danger, choose violence, and take up arms in defense of oneself/country isn't just a Male one. Thus, we can say that women, with proper motivation and "Excuse", will face the same challenges men will. Beyond war and conflict, women have regularly taken roles alongside their husbands to provide for their families and, like any mother in nature, will do anything required to ensure their offspring have the best chance at life that they can provide.

Of course, this isn't a universal rule as back in the day when gender-roles were less blurred and more clear cut (Males Hunt, Women tend to Young) most women just remained within the villages and didn't challenge or really break the mold. It's more when civilization expands, changes, and the opportunity presents itself that we see gender not really matter. There's also more "aggressive" cultures where we see women take on a wider range of roles than just house warmers. Viking Women, for example.

I'm ranting so I'ma stop here.
 

T.K._Paradox

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Too me personally it leaves something to be wanted, a woman can be strong without having to present herself as a man or in a manly way.

Jean d'Arc is a premier example of this.

It is possible for a woman to be gentle, kind, and nurturing as well as being badass and stubborn as the rest of her male compatriots.

Just like it is possible for men to be stoic, blunt, and courageous while also being wise and compassionate.

I also don't feel it is fair to tear down the other gender via stereotypes to make one side look better.

Not all women are ditzy, whiny, money-hungry, bitches.

Nor are all men hyper aggressive, crude, meat headed, horny bastards.
 

Jemini

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Well, to be fair, when someone says 'medieval', everyone thinks of Europe. We forgot that there's also the medieval Asia where stories about ladies doing 'manly' things (though legends, and not high fantasy) are going around.

1). Mulan
2). Tomoe Gozen
3). Hangaku Gozen
4). Jingu Tenno (ancient figure, though)

Historical Figures

1). Ginchiyo Tachibana
2). Yodogimi

Well, I mean, some of the goddess figures in Journey to the West are pretty bad-ass. If that's not high fantasy, I don't know what is.

EDIT: On the subject of Journey to the West, Tripitaka is damseled almost endlessly. Seriously, about 25% of the plots in that series are the MALE priest getting kidnapped at some point and needing to be rescued, another 50% are them having to fight off something pursuing them because they want to get Tripitaka, and then the remaining 25% are them solving some issue for a village, and even then, whenever the issue involves stopping a demon it often winds up with the demon they're fighting noticing Tripitaka and suddenly going after him.
 
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