How to tell if a plot is shit

officialue

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Welp, the title is pretty self-explanatory. How can you tell if the plot of a story is shit.

Or, maybe, what makes the plot of a story shit.

Not really looking for tips on this one (although they're always appreciated). I'm just pretty curious :blob_cookie:
 

K5Rakitan

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I'd say that if the story starts off with an infodump, that's a good indication the writer doesn't know shit about writing in general, so the plot is probably going to be lackluster as well.
 

Vaxel00

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When it relies to much on mcguffins, when the antagonist is not clearly defined ( for example, the only reference for the antagonist is "the dark one" and wants to destroy the world because the plot says so), when it's an obvious self insertion and the MC is a Mary sue/Gary Stu, when it relies on plot armor and lacks consistency.

Off the top of my head.
 

Nahrenne

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When it relies to much on mcguffins, when the antagonist is not clearly defined ( for example, the only reference for the antagonist is "the dark one" and wants to destroy the world because the plot says so), when it's an obvious self insertion and the MC is a Mary sue/Gary Stu, when it relies on plot armor and lacks consistency.

Off the top of my head.
A good way of fixing something like an antagonist only known as the Dark One is if they were interacting with the MC and even getting buddy buddy with them; manipulating them into unintentionally committing terrible acts not immediately seen before finally revealing themselves at the end.
The sense of betrayal the MC would experience would/could affect them mentally, leading to stuff.
'-'
Welp, the title is pretty self-explanatory. How can you tell if the plot of a story is shit.

Or, maybe, what makes the plot of a story shit.

Not really looking for tips on this one (although they're always appreciated). I'm just pretty curious :blob_cookie:
Often, if it has a harem/reverse harem tag, then it tends to be pretty crap in both writing and plot, e.g. one-dimensional characters, no proper harem in the literal sense, harem candidates/'members' falling in love with the protagonist straight away without rhyme or reason, etc...

X
 

NotaNuffian

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Using my own trash ideas, I would say having a retarded and unlikable MC with little to no growth.

I sort of use the plot to point a knife at my MC and have him bugger off from places to places, to me the plot is like a chessboard set with predetermined steps, each step is to be well defined and foreshadowed and not asspulled all the time (once in a while is fine, who doesn't like a surprise buttsex).

It should also be like a stripshow, slowly unveiling itself with every step of the way with some tease, going straight to sex is fine, but with no foreplay, it's gonna be dry.
 
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How can you tell if the plot of a story is shit.
first identify what type if story it is
then identify what the author is trying to do
lastly, assess if the author achieve those specific goals.
if yes, its a normal book, if its better than your expectation its good, if its bellow or fail your expectations its bad.
 
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Sahara

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I'd say that if the story starts off with an infodump, that's a good indication the writer doesn't know shit about writing in general, so the plot is probably going to be lackluster as well.
I beg to differ. Infodumps, while extremely tedious and annoying, have been done well. For example, The Hunger Games trilogy is well-known and loved by a multitude of people. Guess what? It had multiple tedious infodumps and happens to not be one of those things that the author "doesn't know shit about writing in general". Despite what you may think about little kids ruthlessly murdering little kids, you can't say that the world isn't well thought out or that the plot isn't intentional, even with its info-dumping. So, while this is a general rule, it isn't one that should really be used. While yes, it's hard to pull off, it can be done well.

In my opinion: There is no such thing as a bad plot. It's how you execute it that matters, and sometimes info dumps are the necessary evil.
 

Queenfisher

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Tons of stuff considered shit by some people would not be by others. A lot of what's popular is panned severely, but that doesn't stop millions of people from thinking it's good enough to read/buy/adore. (Not to say I defend them, but there are plenty of examples in history when something "bad" in one decade was considered "masterpieces" half a century later. So... *shrug*)

First, define your audience.

Then, read/educate yourself on what your chosen audience actually likes and analyze the patterns of their preferences.

Last, look if what you want to write is consistent with your findings or not. If not -- then it's shit (according to the chosen parameters). If yes -- then it's good.

:blob_aww:
 

Forgotten_One

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I guess in my Opinion the plot gets pretty shitty the moment events get repetitive and well super predictable. Like one character gets kidnapped all the time or characters get underestimated so severely by every one that it makes no sens. Some times taking it so far that some overlord like character in the modern world gets attack by you're weak ass every day hoodlums. An just infuriates me and leads mostly to me dropping it.
But just my opinion I´m going back to my corner.:blob_hide::blob_cookie:
 

kgggdkp2012

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Welp, the title is pretty self-explanatory. How can you tell if the plot of a story is shit.

Or, maybe, what makes the plot of a story shit.

Not really looking for tips on this one (although they're always appreciated). I'm just pretty curious :blob_cookie:
you'll know, by 5th chapter.
 

BenJepheneT

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As with the usual rules of expositional infodumping and inorganic plot points, I believe that there is more to a shitty plot than simply ticking aspects off a checklist. Before I deem a plot shit, at first I try to identify a focus. What is the author trying to achieve with this plot? What message is the author trying to relay in this plot? What kind of medium is the author using to achieve their goals?

Allow me to go off a tangent and elaborate on my third rhetorical question. Say, the average Call of Duty. The plot is often lauded as a railroad that deserves no focus besides being able to serve its purpose of giving the player reasons to shoot shit. However, I beg to differ. Yes, it's nothing but a railroad, simple-minded shootfest. HOWEVER, it gives the players ample motivation within the story that is easy to digest and doesn't rip the focus away. The writers understand how to make interesting characters through simple dialogue (Cap. Price, Woods, Ethan) and light story with lore to serve as motivation (In the first Black Ops, you were brainwashed with numbers that could lead to the US getting chemically destroyed. The story itself is simple, but every character has intel weaven into the exploration aspects in the missions itself if the player so chooses to investigate them. The choice of discovering the lore isn't crucial to the enjoyment of the plot, but it is a wonderful side dish to enjoy.) Character developments, though minor, happen organically within story events, and rarely do they need heavy, exposition laden cutscenes to give context on what you're about to do (KOJIMA *cough cough* Death Stranding is still good though)

That, to me, is a good plot; within the medium of video games, that is. It understands that the plot operates, first and foremost, for the gameplay, and does a good job at creating scenes that help amplify the "game" part of a video game. Imagine if Call of Duty had Schindler's List as a story. I wouldn't call it a bad story, but as a video game plot; it's terrible. Characters may be deep but so much of it requires deep character interaction and intricate scenes that, in a first-person shooter, simply wouldn't work. Now if Schindler's List was a point and click adventure game, then that'll be a different case entirely.

Of course, there's more nuance to this, but I'm getting out of hand here.

To deem a plot good or bad, I'll have to identify what the story is trying to do. Say Black Lagoon; it's a story where mercenaries kick doors down and shoot the fuck out of people. The focus, first and foremost, is animated action, and the plot accommodates it spectacularly. Rarely does characters ever give exposition and even if they do, it's in spades and doesn't interfere with the rest of the running plot. The characters are charismatic enough to enjoy their company and the events that unfold, though outlandish and senseless, goes in line with the tone that the focused action aims to present.

Now we'll take that comparison over its head and take a look a Goodnight PunPun. Those who've read it; you know. The plot is slow, and rarely explains itself, opting to show a lot of things unexplained and very abstract. The characters are pieces of shit, and the dialogue just rambles on in introspective bullshit and depressive sandwich. However, that is the point of Goodnight PunPun. It's a study of broken people held by childhood promises and bad decisions, chained by regret and their struggles to fit into society's perception of right and wrong. The aim is to show broken people trying to make the best out of a world they can't comprehend or, at least, cooperate with, and trying to justify their terrible actions in the name of self-serving salvation. If Goodnight PunPun's plot was used in a fantasy action manga, it wouldn't be a good read, because the character interactions would have to be pages after pages of exposition detailing their feelings and thought as Pun²'s plot simply cannot accommodate action scenes at all. The story will still have its merits on its attempts to craft a study of human regret, but its execution would drop it down to a notch too low to perceive its potential.

My point is that, a plot isn't a singular entity that drives its focus or medium. Everything plays with one another like an intricate orchestra. The plot would be pointless without a good focus, and the plot's focus wouldn't be conveyed effectively without a suitable medium, and a medium needs a good plot to be enjoyed to its fullest. However, a plot is an important backbone to this dynamic. No matter how thoughtful your focus may be or how innovative your medium is, if your plot cannot peacefully synchronize with one another, the experience would be dragged down heavily. If that happens, it's safe to say you've got yourself a bad plot in your hands.
 

CL

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Off of everyone's reasons I've read here, I believe "reader immersion" is the major key for the plot to be good. Am I close to being correct?
 

Discount_Blade

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As with the usual rules of expositional infodumping and inorganic plot points, I believe that there is more to a shitty plot than simply ticking aspects off a checklist. Before I deem a plot shit, at first I try to identify a focus. What is the author trying to achieve with this plot? What message is the author trying to relay in this plot? What kind of medium is the author using to achieve their goals?

Allow me to go off a tangent and elaborate on my third rhetorical question. Say, the average Call of Duty. The plot is often lauded as a railroad that deserves no focus besides being able to serve its purpose of giving the player reasons to shoot shit. However, I beg to differ. Yes, it's nothing but a railroad, simple-minded shootfest. HOWEVER, it gives the players ample motivation within the story that is easy to digest and doesn't rip the focus away. The writers understand how to make interesting characters through simple dialogue (Cap. Price, Woods, Ethan) and light story with lore to serve as motivation (In the first Black Ops, you were brainwashed with numbers that could lead to the US getting chemically destroyed. The story itself is simple, but every character has intel weaven into the exploration aspects in the missions itself if the player so chooses to investigate them. The choice of discovering the lore isn't crucial to the enjoyment of the plot, but it is a wonderful side dish to enjoy.) Character developments, though minor, happen organically within story events, and rarely do they need heavy, exposition laden cutscenes to give context on what you're about to do (KOJIMA *cough cough* Death Stranding is still good though)

That, to me, is a good plot; within the medium of video games, that is. It understands that the plot operates, first and foremost, for the gameplay, and does a good job at creating scenes that help amplify the "game" part of a video game. Imagine if Call of Duty had Schindler's List as a story. I wouldn't call it a bad story, but as a video game plot; it's terrible. Characters may be deep but so much of it requires deep character interaction and intricate scenes that, in a first-person shooter, simply wouldn't work. Now if Schindler's List was a point and click adventure game, then that'll be a different case entirely.

Of course, there's more nuance to this, but I'm getting out of hand here.

To deem a plot good or bad, I'll have to identify what the story is trying to do. Say Black Lagoon; it's a story where mercenaries kick doors down and shoot the fuck out of people. The focus, first and foremost, is animated action, and the plot accommodates it spectacularly. Rarely does characters ever give exposition and even if they do, it's in spades and doesn't interfere with the rest of the running plot. The characters are charismatic enough to enjoy their company and the events that unfold, though outlandish and senseless, goes in line with the tone that the focused action aims to present.

Now we'll take that comparison over its head and take a look a Goodnight PunPun. Those who've read it; you know. The plot is slow, and rarely explains itself, opting to show a lot of things unexplained and very abstract. The characters are pieces of shit, and the dialogue just rambles on in introspective bullshit and depressive sandwich. However, that is the point of Goodnight PunPun. It's a study of broken people held by childhood promises and bad decisions, chained by regret and their struggles to fit into society's perception of right and wrong. The aim is to show broken people trying to make the best out of a world they can't comprehend or, at least, cooperate with, and trying to justify their terrible actions in the name of self-serving salvation. If Goodnight PunPun's plot was used in a fantasy action manga, it wouldn't be a good read, because the character interactions would have to be pages after pages of exposition detailing their feelings and thought as Pun²'s plot simply cannot accommodate action scenes at all. The story will still have its merits on its attempts to craft a study of human regret, but its execution would drop it down to a notch too low to perceive its potential.

My point is that, a plot isn't a singular entity that drives its focus or medium. Everything plays with one another like an intricate orchestra. The plot would be pointless without a good focus, and the plot's focus wouldn't be conveyed effectively without a suitable medium, and a medium needs a good plot to be enjoyed to its fullest. However, a plot is an important backbone to this dynamic. No matter how thoughtful your focus may be or how innovative your medium is, if your plot cannot peacefully synchronize with one another, the experience would be dragged down heavily. If that happens, it's safe to say you've got yourself a bad plot in your hands.
Goddamn I LOVE Black Lagoon. I mean LOVE it.
 
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Theres no way to tell if a plot is objectively shit.
But if I was to go by my opinions: If the mc starts acting extremely dense, afraid to kill anyone, wants to save female slaves by buying them and then eventually having sex with them, then I will probably instantly quit the novel since I know it will be something I will hate a lot. Oh yeh, if the author makes use of japanese honorifics, then it instantly makes the novel's quality go down a notch in my mind.
 

RyreGruel

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Everyone will like different kinds of stories and view others as crap, so my personal suggestion is to just keep asking yourself if your reading the story for the sake of reading or are you actually enjoying it.
 

Mephi

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When you don't enjoy the plot, that's how you know it's shit. That's the problem with art, it's extremely subjective. Take, say, a certain novel series about sparkly vampires a few years back. Twilight is generally regarded as having bad plot by a large number of people, but it was also a best seller and other people LOVED it.
 
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