LGBT Novels Question

[Darkwood]

Rather than a serious topic I was wondering about there being so many gay and trans novels in comparison to lesbian and bisexual novels and thought it’d be fun to see what hypotheses people could come up with.
So, what possible reasons do you think cause this?

(Edit: If this is in the wrong section, oops)

 

[CupcakeNinja]

Gay and lesbian are the same thing. That saod, people love traps. And chicks with dicks.

Bisexual stuff not as much people normally like either straight stuff, yaoi or yuri. Not sure why snce even in straight novels sometimes people like the idea of at least one guy being a love interest for the male lead

 

[binarysoap]

There's 277 gay novels and 244 lesbian novels on SH, so it's not that big of a difference. There is indeed a dearth of bisexual novels (76), and if it's just novels with the transgender tag (113), then there aren't that many either, although if you include genderbender (316!), than you suddenly get a lot more.

As for why? Demographics, random chance, and perceived interest.

Since you don't seem to want this to be serious topic, the reason why is that Tony, the site owner, has his preferences and it clearly shows by the novels he allows to be in existence on his site. There is even rumors about having a genderbender novel featuring himself being written!

 

[AliceShiki]

Gender bender novels being popular here, is probably because the community here seems to receive those well, differently from how in some other sites they seem to often receive hate.

 

[K5Rakitan]

I'm sure authors have various reasons, so this is just one theory.

I think many of the gay stories are written by women who want to be in a relationship with multiple men, but it's still taboo and the authors are not willing to fully admit their desires yet, so writing about gay men is the next best thing. It's still edgy but much more socially acceptable.

By contrast, the male authors get to write their harem stories without shame. Most of us know of examples of polygyny in history and in other cultures.

For the ladies out there who are not aware of this yet, polyandry is actually practiced in some cultures:

http://radicalanthropologygroup.org/sites/default/files/pdf/class_text_050.pdf

 

[Darkwood]

There's 277 gay novels and 244 lesbian novels on SH, so it's not that big of a difference. There is indeed a dearth of bisexual novels (76), and if it's just novels with the transgender tag (113), then there aren't that many either, although if you include genderbender (316!), than you suddenly get a lot more.

As for why? Demographics, random chance, and perceived interest.

Since you don't seem to want this to be serious topic, the reason why is that Tony, the site owner, has his preferences and it clearly shows by the novels he allows to be in existence on his site. There is even rumors about having a genderbender novel featuring himself being written!

That will be my new favourite novel when I find it

 

[CupcakeNinja]

That will be my new favourite novel when I find it

I was supposed to write it but i never did. Tony HATES being genderbent.

*my first time at scribblehub*

Me to Tony: "Oh shit nice, now i have a site where i can make a novel of you laying your hands on poor unsuspecting Nuffians."

Tony: "okay but PLEASE dont make me a woman. Also i like being ridden so make sure to include cowgirl scenes if you really write that."

He may have had flashbacks to when i wrote him as a girl being dominated by one of the other more well known members of NUF.
Sadly i am a lazy cunt and never got around to that.aybe someone else did it? Hmmm

"

 

[Vaerama]

Rather than a serious topic I was wondering about there being so many gay and trans novels in comparison to lesbian and bisexual novels and thought it’d be fun to see what hypotheses people could come up with.
So, what possible reasons do you think cause this?

(Edit: If this is in the wrong section, oops)

Nonserious regarding bisexuality: if you like spaghetti and ramen equally, then how do you feel about putting your red-sauce spaghetti with meatballs into a spicy kimchi ramen stock and eating it with chopsticks?

Curious observation: how many of those gay/lesbian novels are also genderbender/trans? :) (I suspect: more than half)

 

[binarysoap]

Nonserious regarding bisexuality: if you like spaghetti and ramen equally, then how do you feel about putting your red-sauce spaghetti with meatballs into a spicy kimchi ramen stock and eating it with chopsticks?

Curious observation: how many of those gay/lesbian novels are also genderbender/trans? :) (I suspect: more than half)

131 lesbian novels are genderbender/trans, and there's 15 gay novels that are genderbender/trans

So you're right if just looking at lesbian, really off if looking at gay, and your suspicion is wrong overall

 

[Amarathia]

Hmmm, besides what others have mentioned, I think it could also tie into the usual gender roles. At least in all the BL novels (not gonna speak 100% for yuri but read a few and it's the same) the most common trope is a set relationship of one always being top(dominant/gong/seme) and the other the bottom. The bottom male is usually way more feminized and weaker in power. This male MC (who is usually a bottom) wouldn't have any interest in females or the chance at being a 'top' given their feminized role. In a story where the MC was bisexual and male, that would mean he is interested in having sex with both men and women, which is sort of breaking that gender role.
Now, there are actual quite a few stand out on scribble hub for these tropes, but by large they are still the norm. Role switching top/bottom in BL is also as rare as a grain of rice on a beach, so I think this supports the gendered role idea.

I also think some of the stories are just labeled as gay/lesbian because the main relationship is one of those, and many romances are 1v1. I've read ones where the main couple had sex with the opposite gender in their past, but they didn't 'really like it', 'it wasn't truly right', 'they were only doing it as a substitute for XYZ', so they don't label it as the MC simply being bisexual. In fact, some of those characters probably should be counted as bisexual. This then ties into the usually 'MC should be a virgin in love' trope, where many characters have fallen in love hopelessly for the first time ever and have never ever fallen in love with anyone else before. They've never taken romantic interest in anyone else before, so the chance for the bisexual label is even farther thrown to oblivion.

I don't know much about trans. Peace out

 

[Vaerama]

I'm sure authors have various reasons, so this is just one theory.

I think many of the gay stories are written by women who want to be in a relationship with multiple men, but it's still taboo and the authors are not willing to fully admit their desires yet, so writing about gay men is the next best thing. It's still edgy but much more socially acceptable.

Most women like men, and so they probably just ask themselves, ‘what’s better than one incredibly sexy man?’, and they answer just how most men do about women: it’s *two* of them... *having sex*!

‘100%’ they’re just putting themselves into it for sandwiching’s sake. What else could possibly explain the whole ‘uke’ and ‘seme’ behavior where gender roles/expectations are completely the same as straight romance? What else could explain why most people write lesbian couples as having ‘the butch’ and ‘the femme’?

I understand that to some extent from a biological perspective, and all the more since I prefer my men manly, and my women womanly. So it’s all the more strange to live in a world where straight women like to bully effeminate men, and straight men like to be dominated by masculine women... but they seem to make it work.

Whether they’re straight or gay: people are *weird*. :D

 

[Vaerama]

131 lesbian novels are genderbender/trans, and there's 15 gay novels that are genderbender/trans

So you're right if just looking at lesbian, really off if looking at gay, and your suspicion is wrong overall

That makes complete and total sense to me. I don’t read any yaoi/BL so I had no idea.... but that is *such* a difference it boggles the mind!

 

[weakwithwords]

During one of those not-so-lucid moments when I allowed youtube to take me wherever, I chanced upon riff offs clips. In one of those, particularly PP3, there was a bald guy in a military getup along with four others who sang "If I were a boy, ..."

This happened some months or years back, but a few days ago, I recalled it and looked up the lyrics. (I've never heard it sung by Beyonce herself.)

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/beyonceknowles/ifiwereaboy.html

 

[AliceShiki]

131 lesbian novels are genderbender/trans, and there's 15 gay novels that are genderbender/trans

So you're right if just looking at lesbian, really off if looking at gay, and your suspicion is wrong overall

That makes complete and total sense to me. I don’t read any yaoi/BL so I had no idea.... but that is *such* a difference it boggles the mind!

Ah, it's within expectations actually. The BL community is a lot stronger than the GL community.

Like, there are 277 BL and 244 GL in scribbly while including Gender Bender, but... Including Gender Bender in this statistic paints an inaccurate portrait, because in the majority of those Gender Bender + Homosexual Romance stories, the gender bent character still considers themselves as someone of their previous gender...

So, those Gender Bender + Homosexual Roamance stories are usually stories in which the couple feels a lot like an heterosexual couple... So uhn... I think it makes more sense to look at the number while excluding Gender Bender, which leads to...

262 BL and 113 GL novels. Making BL a much more popular group... Which is again, as expected.

The Gender Bender + GL novels are sadly usually filled with the guy that was genderbent being filled with dirty thoughts and trying to make use of their new gender to enjoy being near girls while they're changing or bathing while they don't have their guards up against the MC... It's a really annoying trope and one that usually never touches on gender identity or dissonance between mind and body, or the MC being uncomfortable with their own body... T.T

Of course not all are like that, but the majority sadly is.

I'm sure authors have various reasons, so this is just one theory.

I think many of the gay stories are written by women who want to be in a relationship with multiple men, but it's still taboo and the authors are not willing to fully admit their desires yet, so writing about gay men is the next best thing. It's still edgy but much more socially acceptable.

By contrast, the male authors get to write their harem stories without shame. Most of us know of examples of polygyny in history and in other cultures.

For the ladies out there who are not aware of this yet, polyandry is actually practiced in some cultures:

http://radicalanthropologygroup.org/sites/default/files/pdf/class_text_050.pdf

Tbh, I think this theory is pretty far off.

AFAIK most BL lovers are just shoujo lovers that got tired of some super bland male interests and some often times really annoying MCs, so they switched to BL which is very similar to Shoujo, but without the usual tropes that parts of the Shoujo Audience got sick of.

It also has a disconnect with the audience in a way, due to being no lead Females, so they can enjoy it to their heart's content without feeling like the MC is behaving in an unnatural way or in a way that would be shameful, or in a way they'd be uncomfortable with... At the same time, the MC often times still have some characteristics usually associated with girls in order to make them more easily likable by the girls that love BL.

So uhn... From everything I read about BL and talked to other BL readers, your theory is really far off! >.<

What else could explain why most people write lesbian couples as having ‘the butch’ and ‘the femme’?

It's actually kinda interesting to me that you say that, because I honestly don't remember reading a single story with a butch and a femme.

Like, Uke/Seme are super common in BL, but Butch/Femme are actually very uncommon as far as I'm aware.

Rather, the butch/femme thing is a real turn off for me, so I'd shy away from those like plague. I remember @Moonpearl once recommending a classic GL with this dynamic (I think it was Utena, but I may be misrembering) before, but I just couldn't ever get into even trying it out exactly because it had a Butch/Femme dynamic in it.

But uhn... I start reading new GL manga all the time and I genuinely don't remember seeing it even once... It's a lot rarer than the Uke/Seme dynamic AFAIK.

And well, to me one of the biggest appeals of GL is having 2 Female Leads that I can relate to a lot and care a lot for, while both get a lot of spotlight and focus on themselves. With neither being the clear MC of the story... Having a butch and a femme would totally ruin this for me because I wouldn't be able to relate to the more masculine girl at all! It would ruin the whole point to me! >.<

 

[Sabruness]

And well, to me one of the biggest appeals of GL is having 2 Female Leads that I can relate to a lot and care a lot for, while both get a lot of spotlight and focus on themselves. With neither being the clear MC of the story... Having a butch and a femme would totally ruin this for me because I wouldn't be able to relate to the more masculine girl at all! It would ruin the whole point to me! >.<

While i'm a guy and thus cant directly relate to female characters, the rest of this is pretty spot on for me as well. real obvious butch/femme stuff (especially where the butch acts and sometimes kinda looks like a guy) just feels.... meh to me, to put it lightly. I think one of the benefits of GL is that usually both main characters get spotlight and focus in a story (though not always). It creates a nice balance.

 

[AliceShiki]

While i'm a guy and thus cant directly relate to female characters, the rest of this is pretty spot on for me as well. real obvious butch/femme stuff (especially where the butch acts and sometimes kinda looks like a guy) just feels.... meh to me, to put it lightly. I think one of the benefits of GL is that usually both main characters get spotlight and focus in a story (though not always). It creates a nice balance.

Aye! Nothing annoys me more in shoujo than having a generic cardboard perfect Male Lead! They are so absuuuuurdly boooooooooooooring! >.<

In GL we almost always get two actually developed Female Leads. Even if one gets more development than the other, as long as both are properly developed, I'm pretty happy about it~ <3

 

[PrincessFelicie]

Gender bender novels being popular here, is probably because the community here seems to receive those well, differently from how in some other sites they seem to often receive hate.

hahaha I'm never touching royal road ever again even with a ten foot pole.

The Gender Bender + GL novels are sadly usually filled with the guy that was genderbent being filled with dirty thoughts and trying to make use of their new gender to enjoy being near girls while they're changing or bathing while they don't have their guards up against the MC... It's a really annoying trope and one that usually never touches on gender identity or dissonance between mind and body, or the MC being uncomfortable with their own body... T.T

As someone that writes gender-bending stories that are actually a thinly veiled font for cracking trans lesbian eggs, I'm happy to buck that trend and to say there is a whole discord server of us dedicated to that task.

___________________________________

I definitely think the big lack of bisexual stories is twofold.
Firstly, there's the obvious social issues of bi & pan erasure, stupid ideas like "once you get married you count as straight/gay depending on the person you married" or on the opposite end "to be bisexual you need to be dating people of the two binary genders at the same time", just, a whole bunch of non-truths that people hear as kids and never reconsider to realize how silly they are, but with the end result of writing bi characters but not tagging them as such out of thinking it "currently doesn't count". Then add to that polyamorous social issues that lead to very few stories involving a focus on more than a single monoamorous relationship, and that leads to the second point:
the writer logic is "why make them bisexual if throughout the story they're only gonna be attracted to a single person?" (which therefore creates a noteworthy situation where even though bi does not imply polyamorous, better societal understanding of polyamory would benefit bi people all the same).
So, basically, bisexual people are mostly relegated to polyamorous stories, of which there isn't many, and love triangles, of which there are more but it's usually more of a straight trope than one you'll find in LGBT works.

In conclusion, not only are bi people already underrepresented, but not many stories even have the opportunity to represent them in a starring role in the first place (whether with their sexuality being important to the plot or even just being worth tagging), and that compounds the problem.

 

[Vaerama]

But uhn... I start reading new GL manga all the time and I genuinely don't remember seeing it even once... It's a lot rarer than the Uke/Seme dynamic AFAIK.

More seriously: I started reading GL manga so much at first because it usually didn’t palatte-swap men out with women in yuri romances. And on appearance alone: I haven’t seen a lot of Japanese women in manga depicted with cropped hair... so even when ‘masculine characteristics’ are heavily loaded into a character with not a single ‘feminine’ element present aside from technical ‘sex’ and ‘general appearance’: at least they don’t always have to *look* ‘the part’ too.

That said, there were some examples for sure. Strawberry Panic (my first GL outside of western TV) for instance: there is a (horse riding) character who is some shy girl’s ‘prince’, and the character just has nothing else going for them. Any one of those ‘princely types’ who feature in ‘all-girls-schools’ have a solid chance of following the ‘butch/femme’ pattern in manga form. Sometimes with ‘long hair’, and certainly usually with more hair than the properly ‘butch’ portrayal in the USA is, but otherwise identical personality-wise/interest-wise to what an identical male character might have been.

Still: I’ve seen much more of that particular pairing IRL than I’ve ever seen animated, drawn, and on the TV all put together. I honestly haven’t seen anything *written* with the Butch/Femme dynamic in *years*.

 

[gaylolis]

i do prefer if they have an interesting story first.

whether its gay or not or genderbent came second, though i have an aversion if the male to female genderbent end up doing other men.

though one thing remains a mystery to me: why does BL / Yaoi novels tend to have the best titles?

 

[Amarathia]

though one thing remains a mystery to me: why does BL / Yaoi novels tend to have the best titles?

What??? Can you give some examples rofl? They all seem like pretty common one-catch phrases to me

Or was it sarcasm...